America's Founding

[Aero_Hudson]

Thanks everyone for keeping it civil and constructive to this point. I know this can be a delicate topic.

A couple of quotes from our Founding Fathers...

President Thomas Jefferson: Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society. We have solved ... the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries.

Article VI: Clause 3: The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

Thomas Jefferson: Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

James Madison: Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history.

James Madison: Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? that the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?

James Madison: If Religion be not within the cognizance of Civil Government how can its legal establishment be necessary to Civil Government? What influence in fact have ecclesiastical establishments had on Civil Society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the Civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny: in no instance have they been seen the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty, may have found an established Clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just Government instituted to secure & perpetuate it needs them not. Such a Government will be best supported by protecting every Citizen in the enjoyment of his Religion with the same equal hand which protects his person and his property; by neither invading the equal rights of any Sect, nor suffering any Sect to invade those of another.

Treaty of Tripoli 1797: As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Sorry for the long quotes but I think you get the idea. I agree that this nation was founded based on Christian principles. Could it be any more Christian to allow a man or woman to come to God of their own free will with no coercion from government or another administrative body. What is faith if it is forced upon citizens as the official sponsored religion of the state? I think it is clear that our founding fathers, a majority of them, believed in God. I think it is also clear that a majority felt the relationship of any free person and his God is his / her business alone and cannot and should not be mandated by government.

Aero out!

 

[Solo]

Thanks everyone for keeping it civil and constructive to this point. I know this can be a delicate topic.

A couple of quotes from our Founding Fathers...

(snipped)

... Sorry for the long quotes but I think you get the idea. I agree that this nation was founded based on Christian principles. Could it be any more Christian to allow a man or woman to come to God of their own free will with no coercion from government or another administrative body. What is faith if it is forced upon citizens as the official sponsored religion of the state? I think it is clear that our founding fathers, a majority of them, believed in God. I think it is also clear that a majority felt the relationship of any free person and his God is his / her business alone and cannot and should not be mandated by government.

Aero out!

Should we be joyous that our government stands against Christianity, or should we pray that our government return to the place that the founding fathers established? Our public education began in the churches. Our universities were institutions of learning Christian doctrines. Our lives were not encumbered by the anti-Christian spirit bent on destroying all vestiges of Christianity to include the moral code established by the 10 commandments. A people that are governed by any other government than a government that is submitted to the Lordship of Jesus Christ will be slaves to whatever wind the destroyer wants to perpetrate on the people.

Read the book that I referred to in previous posts, and you will then understand how God sovereignly designed the United States of America for a refuge for His children. We are now in the last days, and the government that once was in the United States of America has disappeared and been given over to the satanic philosophies of humanism.

 

[Solo]

1 God be merciful unto us, and bless us; and cause his face to shine upon us; Selah. 2 That thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving health among all nations. 3 Let the people praise thee, O God; let all the people praise thee. 4 O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah. 5 Let the people praise thee, O God; let all the people praise thee. 6 Then shall the earth yield her increase; and God, even our own God, shall bless us. 7 God shall bless us; and all the ends of the earth shall fear him. Psalm 67

 

[Aero_Hudson]

Should we be joyous that our government stands against Christianity, or should we pray that our government return to the place that the founding fathers established? Our public education began in the churches. Our universities were institutions of learning Christian doctrines. Our lives were not encumbered by the anti-Christian spirit bent on destroying all vestiges of Christianity to include the moral code established by the 10 commandments. A people that are governed by any other government than a government that is submitted to the Lordship of Jesus Christ will be slaves to whatever wind the destroyer wants to perpetrate on the people.

Read the book that I referred to in previous posts, and you will then understand how God sovereignly designed the United States of America for a refuge for His children. We are now in the last days, and the government that once was in the United States of America has disappeared and been given over to the satanic philosophies of humanism.

Solo,

I just gave many quotes from our founding fathers on why the separation of church in state is important and essential and that it was designed that way. Our nation does not stand against Christianity. Instead, our founding fathers gave us a structure that would protect all men and women in pursuing Christianity or other religious beliefs as they see fit.

Let's assume for a minute that our government infused Christianity into the government. Let's say they chose the Catholic religion to embrace and formally condone as our national religion. Do you think that all Christians believe in and follow Catholicism? If the government mandated that anyone that serves in public office has to be a Catholic, what sort of impact would this have on our "free" nation?

My government should play no role in choosing my religious beliefs. As it was originally intended, I should have the right to choose my path on my own. My path is between me and God not the Executive, Legislative or Judicial branches of our government.

 

[Solo]

Solo,

I just gave many quotes from our founding fathers on why the separation of church in state is important and essential and that it was designed that way. Our nation does not stand against Christianity. Instead, our founding fathers gave us a structure that would protect all men and women in pursuing Christianity or other religious beliefs as they see fit.

Let's assume for a minute that our government infused Christianity into the government. Let's say they chose the Catholic religion to embrace and formally condone as our national religion. Do you think that all Christians believe in and follow Catholicism? If the government mandated that anyone that serves in public office has to be a Catholic, what sort of impact would this have on our "free" nation?

My government should play no role in choosing my religious beliefs. As it was originally intended, I should have the right to choose my path on my own. My path is between me and God not the Executive, Legislative or Judicial branches of our government.

And your America is not the America that I grew up in, and that the founding fathers established. You have swallowed the Humanistic philosophical approach to life hook, line, and sinker. You have ignored all of the quotes that were posted concerning the Christian heritage of the United States, you will not read the book that I referred to, and you will subtly claim God as your god while you line up with those who are removing him from all that is America. It is a pity that you and others would rather align yourselves with a government that is removing all vestiges of Christianity from the public arena so that the spirit of antichrist can be established as the god of this nation. May God have mercy on all who have swallowed the lie.

 

[keekl]

Wonder why the "founding fathers" didn't obey 2 Peter & Rom 13 regarding submission to authorities...even Paul submitted to Nero and he was way worse than King George :yes

I think the First Amendment covers that very well:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The very first line of the country's Constitution grants us the God given right to worship as we see fit and pleasing to God. Pleasing God trumps submission to authority.

Paul also worshiped in a way that defied Roman authority.

The first amendment trumps scripture...? Submission to authority is not an option. Understand submission does not equal obedience (under which one has to suffer the consequences of disobedience in submission to authority), but to look at the Constitution as higher than Scripture would be something akin to idolatry.

 

[Solo]

Wonder why the "founding fathers" didn't obey 2 Peter & Rom 13 regarding submission to authorities...even Paul submitted to Nero and he was way worse than King George :yes

I think the First Amendment covers that very well:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The very first line of the country's Constitution grants us the God given right to worship as we see fit and pleasing to God. Pleasing God trumps submission to authority.

Paul also worshiped in a way that defied Roman authority.

The first amendment trumps scripture...? Submission to authority is not an option. Understand submission does not equal obedience (under which one has to suffer the consequences of disobedience in submission to authority), but to look at the Constitution as higher than Scripture would be something akin to idolatry.

When the authority that you are under dictates that you do something that is sin according to Scripture, do you sin after the authority of your government, or do you refuse to sin after the authority of God Almighty?

 

[Aero_Hudson]

When the authority that you are under dictates that you do something that is sin according to Scripture, do you sin after the authority of your government, or do you refuse to sin after the authority of God Almighty?

I fail to see how letting someone choose how and when they come to God to be against Scripture. I also fail to see how I am swallowing a lie by thinking our government should not coerce others into what they should believe spiritually. Would you look at this differently if our founding fathers were all Muslim and our nation was founded on those principles. Would you be so quick to claim that since it was founded on these principles that we are a Muslim nation and abandon your Christian faith as a result?

At this point, we will just have to agree to disagree. I am a free man. My nation ensures that I am free as God intended. As a result, I was allowed to choose my time to come to Lord and come to the Lord I did. Not sure how this equates to a bad thing.

 

[destiny]

When the authority that you are under dictates that you do something that is sin according to Scripture, do you sin after the authority of your government, or do you refuse to sin after the authority of God Almighty?

This is already happening in the form of christians turning a blind eye to the murder of the unborn while cheering on other "good" policies that work to the "betterment" of mankind. ( humanism cloaked in religion)

This is how low Americas cultural "chrisianity" has sunk in the mud.

 

[keekl]

When the authority that you are under dictates that you do something that is sin according to Scripture, do you sin after the authority of your government, or do you refuse to sin after the authority of God Almighty?

You follow God, not men. BUT you still must submit to the authority for whatever punishment they will give out. Rebellion is not a NT teaching regardless of how romantic it may be.

 

[keekl]

When the authority that you are under dictates that you do something that is sin according to Scripture, do you sin after the authority of your government, or do you refuse to sin after the authority of God Almighty?

This is already happening in the form of christians turning a blind eye to the murder of the unborn while cheering on other "good" policies that work to the "betterment" of mankind. ( humanism cloaked in religion)

This is how low Americas cultural "chrisianity" has sunk in the mud.

Agreed~~it's become a civil religion to perpetuate the status quo instead of the redemption and tranformation of sinners through the blood of the Lamb to work in the Kingdom of God.

 

[Vic C.]

When the authority that you are under dictates that you do something that is sin according to Scripture, do you sin after the authority of your government, or do you refuse to sin after the authority of God Almighty?

Thanks Michael. BTW, I like your new avatar. :yes

The first amendment trumps scripture...?

keekl, I didn't say that nor implied it. I said:

Pleasing God trumps submission to authority.

Sorry if you misunderstood my intentions. Solo summed it up well for me.

Pastor Dr. David Jeremiah once said (paraphrase), "An unjust law is a law begging to be broken."

 

[handy]

As all here know, I'm the reddest-blooded American girl, a right down Yankee Doodle Dandette!

However, I've often wondered just what was so sinful that the British government was doing that allowed the Patriots off the hook as far as obeying their earthly government?

If it was taxes, then I guess we are all off the hook regarding obeying our current government's laws, because boy, our current government is taxing everyone a lot more than poor, insane King George ever did.

 

[Vic C.]

So let me get this straight in simple terms; if the US government found a way to infringe on our First Amendment rights and dictated how and when or even IF we could worship as we choose or maybe passed laws against the publication, printing and distributing Bibles, or outlawed religious broadcasting, we should bow to their wishes and their authority?

Over my dead body. :D

At this point, we will just have to agree to disagree. I am a free man. My nation ensures that I am free as God intended. As a result, I was allowed to choose my time to come to Lord and come to the Lord I did. Not sure how this equates to a bad thing.

Correct Aero and we wish to see it stay that way. :yes

Our forefathers left their nation(s) because one by one they saw their inalienable rights being stripped away. Does anyone here see a recurring pattern?

 

[handy]

Does anyone here see a recurring pattern?

Yep, I do. Come on, Patriots, to arms! :armed

 

[Vic C.]

As all here know, I'm the reddest-blooded American girl, a right down Yankee Doodle Dandette!

However, I've often wondered just what was so sinful that the British government was doing that allowed the Patriots off the hook as far as obeying their earthly government?

If it was taxes, then I guess we are all off the hook regarding obeying our current government's laws, because boy, our current government is taxing everyone a lot more than poor, insane King George ever did.

Hi Dora. Try here for starters:

http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/databa ... m?HHID=270

 

[handy]

Interesting read.

However, if you look at all the steps that King George took, they all seem rather reasonable steps given the rebellious nature of the colonists. I don't really see anything in the list that would justify a Christian violating God's command to obey our governing authorities and King George and the British Parliament were the governing authority in the colonies, were they not?

 

[keekl]

Our forefathers left their nation(s) because one by one they saw their inalienable rights being stripped away. Does anyone here see a recurring pattern?

"Inalienable rights"? Got Scripture for that?

When I read what Jesus said it seems like we were promised hardship and persecution and even death when we pick up our cross and follow Him~~not "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"...

 

[Vic C.]

Fine, have it your way. Let your government do whatever they want with you, like sheep being led to the slaughter.

I'm just glad the early church leaders and ECFs didn't feel the same way and went "against the grain", even when it meant they may die for their convictions. Same thing with the Reformers and ones just prior to them. :amen

 

[keekl]

Fine, have it your way. Let your government do whatever they want with you, like sheep being led to the slaughter.

I'm just glad the early church leaders and ECFs didn't feel the same way and went "against the grain", even when it meant they may die for their convictions. Same thing with the Reformers and ones just prior to them. :amen

See, you did provide some Scripture:

Rom 8:35 –Rom 8:39 NKJV
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written:
      “For Your sake we are killed all day long;
      We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.â€Â
Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.