An Alternative (Real) History Of Paul?

[Georges]

Forgive me, I’m being bold again…

Not to worry...helps me see the words better.

Georges site reads: The Hellenistic literature, such as the Book of Wisdom and other Apocrypha, as well as Philo (see Hausrath, "Neutestamentliche Zeitgeschichte," ii. 18-27; Siegfried, "Philo von Alexandria," 1875, pp. 304-310; Jowett, "Commentary on the Thessalonians and Galatians," i. 363-417), was the sole source for his eschatological and theological system. Notwithstanding the emphatic statement, in Phil. iii. 5, that he was "a Hebrew of the Hebrews"â€â€a rather unusual term, which seems to refer to his nationalistic training and conduct (comp. Acts xxi. 40, xxii. 2), since his Jewish birth is stated in the preceding words "of the stock of Israel"â€â€he was, if any of the Epistles that bear his name are really his, entirely a Hellenist in thought and sentiment. As such he was imbued with the notion that "the whole creation groaneth" for liberation from "the prison-house of the body," from this earthly existence, which, because of its pollution by sin and death, is intrinsically evil (Gal. i. 4; Rom. v. 12, vii. 23-24, viii. 22; I Cor. vii. 31; II Cor. v. 2, 4; comp.

Not my site...just the priemier site for collective Judacia.....

I copied them here for you:

Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Rom 5: 12, Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
7: 23-24But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
1Cr 7:31 And they that use this world, as not abusing [it]: for the fashion of this world passeth away.
2Cr 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

Reading the selected verses, I see that Paul has, just as he stated in 1 Cor 9, varied his style of teaching to appeal to the crowd he was preaching to. I don’t see that as a problem, but as being wise as a serpent, gentle as a dove.

Yes...the Chameleon Paul was all things to all men....I guess even to the point of deception...I guess it's ok if it's all in the cause of Christ? Paul taught law observance to the Jewish believers and Law abstinence to the Gentiles....hmmm...

Paul was no slouch. He was well read and knew what the Romans, Greeks, Hebrews, etc. believed.

Agreed, Paul was pretty sharp...that's the only way he could dupe the Gentiles...it didn't work so well with the more knowledgeable Jewish believers.

Tailoring your message to your audience just makes sense, Georges. If you were speaking to 1st graders, would you use 50 cent words? Would it be fair of me to assume that you could only speak on a first grade level then?

I agree...I'm often accused on the post that I shape my arguments to end the way I want them. Of course his message will be tailored to his audience. But the problem is apathy for the Law or Law observance...Did Paul practice what he preached or was he dishonest? For example, Paul taught the Torah as passe, yet he preformed the sacrificial requirements for the Nazarite vow in Acts 21....can't have it both ways, Paul...

[quote:1c2bc] 1 Cor 9:19. For though I be free from all [men], yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all [men], that I might by all means save some.
And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with [you].

Thanks for quoting the very verse that convicts him...

As for the message itself, Paul refers to “this present evil world†because Jesus taught (1John 2:15) Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. Here this is referring to the present evil world, not the people on it or nature and the natural beauty of the creation.

Gotta disagree with you here..."this present evil world" is Paul's Gnostic influence filtering in....Gnostic's teach the world is inherently evil...the Jews do not. The believe the world is basically good, but influenced by evil.

We know from our experience that all die in Adam. Jesus also taught that sin brought death to all men and there was no one perfect in goodness but God. (John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.)

We die as the result of sin entering the world....and we still go about our sinful ways....a learned experience.

We can also see that "the whole creation groaneth" for liberation from "the prison-house of the body," from this earthly existence, which, because of its pollution by sin and death, is intrinsically evil, so what is wrong with saying that?

That is Gnostic....research it for yourself and come back and tell me it's not.

If you don’t know that your physical body is a prison, you must be under forty. John also said, “For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.â€Â

I'm closer to 50 (actually next year and as I'm typing, my bones are aching from a soccer game this morning...so I am well aware of my physical limitations..

So far, I’m not getting why Paul is the pits.[/quote:1c2bc]

A friend of mine introduced me to this website the other day....it details how a false prophet is to be determined....have a look and see if Paul fits the bill....

http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/

I've finished 4 chapters and found it very eye opening...Paul doesn't pass the test.....

 

[Georges]

From Georges site:

He speaks of it as "a thorn in the flesh," and as a heavy stroke by "a messenger of Satan" (II Cor. xii. 7), which often caused him to realize his utter helplessness, and made him an object of pity and horror (Gal. iv. 13). It was, as Krenkel ("Beiträge zur Aufhellung der Geschichte und Briefe des Apostels Paulus," 1890, pp. 47-125) has convincingly shown, epilepsy, called by the Greeks "the holy disease," which frequently put him into a state of ecstasy, a frame of mind that may have greatly impressed some of his Gentile hearers, but could not but frighten away and estrange from him the Jew, whose God is above all the God of reason.

Again...not my site....

I can’t agree with this either. From Gal 4:15 “…for I bear you record, that, if [it had been] possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me,†it seems more likely to be an affliction of the eyes, which can be painful and debilitating.

Two different things....Epilepsy "could be" the cause of Paul's visions. Paul could very well have had eye problems as well.

From Georges site: [quote:1f6ec] It is quite natural, then, that not only the Jews (Acts xxi. 21), but also the Judæo-Christians, regarded Paul as an "apostate from the Law" (see Eusebius, l.c. iii. 27; Irenæus, "Adversus Hæreses," i. 26, 2; Origen, "Contra Celsum," v. 65; Clement of Rome, "Recognitiones," i. 70. 73).

If he taught apathy towards the Law...of course they would have called him an apostate. None of the other disciples had that problem....ever wonder why?

Jesus is quoted in Matthew 22: 39-40 that to love God is the first and great commandment and to love fellow man is “like unto it. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.†How is that different than what Paul wrote in Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Wait....is Paul teaching to obey Torah and thus loving your neighbor, cause that is the Jewish concept of obeying Torah...Jesus was teaching a Jewish concept....If Paul is, then why does he teach Torah apathy....will the real Paul please stand up?

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Is he teaching Torah observence?

Or in 1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned…or in Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. As you can plainly see, they were in total agreement. The truth is that you have come upon those who, like their first century counterparts, have slandered Paul without cause.

I appreciate the verses you have supplied....and I've stated that as Paul is a Chameleon, he preaches enough Torahish rhetoric to make his message seem authentic....read the website that I supplied in the previous post and see how Paul and Balaam are compared....both are true prophets and both are false prophets....I submit the teachings of Paul are the Balaam that Jesus is writing against in Revelation. I've always maintained that the letters of Revelation were written to repair the damage that Paul had done in screwing up Nazarene Judaism.

Romans 3:8 where Paul mentions they were spreading lies about him “(as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,)†and he then warns the believers not to say, “Let us do evil, that good may come?†adding, “ whose damnation is just.â€Â

Paul's lies depend on what camp you are in....The whole confrontation at the council of Jerusalem was to find out just what Paul was preaching...was there any merit to it...? Paul was generally veiling his Torah apathetic message to the Gentiles while professing to be Torah observent to the elders in Jerusalem (even to the point of sacrificing).

From Georges site:

The proselyte on whom the Abrahamic rite was not performed remained an outsider. It was, therefore, highly important for Paul that those who became converted to the Church should rank equally with its other members and that every mark of distinction between Jew and Gentile should be wiped out in the new state of existence in which the Christians lived in anticipation. The predominating point of view of the Synagogue was the political and social one; that of the Church, the eschatological one. May such as do not bear the seal of Abraham's covenant upon their flesh or do not fulfil the whole Law be admitted into the congregation of the saints waiting for the world of resurrection? This was the question at issue between the disciples of Jesus and those of Paul; the former adhering to the view of the Essenes, which was also that of Jesus; the latter taking an independent position that started not from the Jewish but from the non-Jewish standpoint. Paul fashioned a Christ ofhis own, a church of his own, and a system of belief of his own; and because there were many mythological and Gnostic elements in his theology which appealed more to the non-Jew than to the Jew, he won the heathen world to his belief.

What did Jesus say? He gave the disciples the task of binding the things on earth that would delineate the church.

Not a Gentile Church, but a reformed Judaism....Nazarene Judaism. Jeus was very nationalistic....Israel first, gentile second....most people don't like to hear that, but we are all born to our places. Gentiles can proselyte to Judaism and be identified in the age to come (Messianic kingdom).
(Matt 16:19, 18:18)

Which were listed in Acts 15: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment: …For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. I think you would do well to re read Acts 15, Georges.

I know Acts very well.....Luke (Paul's personal biographer) wrote it.....hmmm. I'm guessing if James personal biographer wrote it, it may have come out different...

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

(These men were sent by James to Antioch to see what Paul had been preaching...Galations picks up the narative of the contention between Paul and those sent by James. These men were Nazarene Christians who (as the apostles in Jerusalem did) still obeyed the Torah.)

Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

The Nazarene's wanted Paul to come to Jerusalem to see James...to resolve the issue of circumcision and basically, Pauls apparent Torah appathy position.

Act 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
Act 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and [of] the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses.

(a certain sect of the pharisee's is the authors way of disguising the actual group of apostles and followers that were the majority of believers in Jerusalem...it is historical fact that the disciples kept Torah after the ascension, why? because Jesus hadn't abolished it.)

Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Gentile proselytes were incouraged to worship in the Jewish system...

Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

That is true...there should be no distinction between the "Jewish followers of Torah" and the "Gentile followers of Torah"...the idea being Gentiles would Proselyte....becoming full Jews...inheriting the promises of God to Abraham.

Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

The yoke being the man made laws surrounding Torah law...that man made law included not associating with Gentiles socially....cleanliness laws that the rabbis made up to surround Torah law...

Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Historically, Proselytes did become circumcised and were baptised into the jewish faith, therefore inheriting the promise to Abraham. Peter is suggesting that they not have to observe the man made rabbinic law....making it easier for Gentile converts to observe the pure form of Mosaic law...

Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me:
Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

A form of Torah lite.....

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Torah lite is suggested as a starting point for baby Christians....with the understanding that they would graduate to the meat of the Torah...Gentile Proselytes already had an interest in the God of the Jews...that's why they hung around the Synagogues...

Acts 15's sister chapter Acts 21 where Paul is called to the carpet again because of his strange teachings...


From Georges site:

How then can this world of perdition and evil, of sin and death, be overcome, and the true life be attained instead? This question, which, according to a Talmudic legend (Tamid 32a), Alexander the Great put to the wise men of the South, was apparently the one uppermost also in the mind of Paul (see Kabisch,"Die Eschatologie des Paulus," 1893); and in the form of a vision of the crucified Christ the answer came to him to "die in order to live." This vision, seen in his ecstatic state, was to him more than a mere reality: it was the pledge ("'erabon" of the resurrection and the life of which he was in quest. Having seen "the first-born of the resurrection" (I Cor. xv. 20-24; the Messiah is called "the first-born" also in Midr. Teh. to Ps. lxxxix. 28, and in Ex. R. xix. 7), he felt certain of the new life which all "the sons of light" were to share….(denials of the tenets of the faith)… These are the elements of Paul's theologyâ€â€a system of belief which endeavored to unite all men, but at the expense of sound reason and common sense.

Jesus was the first to introduce the call to "die in order to live."

Not so...the Jew's have a very solid belief in the resurrection and how to obtain it....there biggest belief is that the righteous will be raised to enter the Messianic Kingdom...so Jesus isn't the first.

Take up your cross and follow me is not an invitation to fame and fortune.

You are right...it is Jesus' call to follow God's law as perfectly as one can...Jesus cried out against what the religious state of the nation had become...Jesus was about reform and he showed his disciples how to follow.

There is no mistaking that Jesus and Paul declared that those who denied themselves in this life would also live with him in glory.

True....as James also professed.....however, Paul got his slant on "denial" for Gnosticism...who also practiced self denial...

Matthew 5-6-7 and dozens of other places. From the way this site reads, Georges, these folks are the same mindset as the crowd who crept in and tried to steal the liberty that the church had in Christ and replace Jesus‘ doctrine of 'love one another’ with a set of rules and religious practices.

I excuse the paragraph above as a Paulinist prop statement and far from the truth. Paul was at odds with the Church in Jerusalem...plain and simple....these are the men to who Christ entrusted the Church, not Paul.

Run, Georges, run! :o

How am I doing so far...? Pretty well I'm thinking.

[/quote:1f6ec]

Again, much thanks for looking at the website....hopefully you will continue to paste and comment....looking forward to your comment on the Mystery/Gnostic portions.....