[_ Old Earth _] An evolutionist says evolution is a fact

[JM]

Evolutionist: Do you have a Ph.D. too?
Matt: No. M.Div.
Evolutionist: Master of Divinity?
Matt: Yes. I'm a theologian. So, I'm utterly qualified to disprove evolution.
Evolutionist: No. You are not.
Matt: Uh. Humor? Evolutionists have that don't they or did it disappear through natural selection?
Evolutionist: We have humor, more to the point we have education. Define empirical evidence please.
Matt: I’m a theologian. You'll have to define it for me.
Evolutionist: Okay. That in and of itself tells me you know nothing of science. I can educate. But will you listen?
Matt: Is your presupposition that my ignorance invalidates any of my arguments? I could presuppose that your ignorance of God negates your ability to rightly judge his existence, thereby forcing you to arrive at erring conclusions about evolution.
Evolutionist: What is a phylogenetic relation? What is neotony, heterochrony? You cannot argue against something scientific without knowing science. It is moronic to try to do so.
Matt: Who said I was arguing science? So far, your logic hasn't impressed me.
Evolutionist: You are arguing against evolution, an empirical science, you must know something about it to argue against it, otherwise its called DOGMATIC PRESENTATION.
Matt: That makes sense. Since I am a theologian, as I said earlier, I am not qualified to refute evolution. I am simply restating the truth I said earlier.
Evolutionist: Agreed, but you are trying to disprove it yes? Or present alternate hypotheses with adequate evidence to support it. I’ll listen to that if it is the case. But it has to be scientific evidence.
Matt: Well, more or less, yes. I think evolution is a great deception. Is evolution falsifiable?
Evolutionist: Evidence is. But in science there is the double blind test. Part of empirical evidence. That negates false proof.
Matt: Is there any evidence at all that goes against evolution?
Evolutionist: Not yet, as a scientist I must concede that there is always evidence coming in, but none in the last 200 years plus. Has there been any negative proof. We have had false claims. But they have been sought out through empirical means i.e. Piltdown man
Matt: If you have studied it thoroughly, then undoubtedly, you should have encountered evidence contrary to your belief. So then, is evolution an absolute fact?
Evolutionist: Absolute fact yes. Law no. Evolution happens, genetic change over time within a population but the how is theory, facts backing it. But theory, predictable at that
Matt: Macro, or micro?
Evolutionist: I have encountered many claims no evidence. Define micro and macro please. I feel your definition may be different than science’s.
Matt: Micro - change in allele frequency. Macro - one species to another: Radical DNA restructuring.
Evolutionist: Okay, there you have it. How long does micro evolution take. How long does macro take? We are getting somewhere here.
Matt: Micro occurs. But I believe in the genetic 'lessening' of the gene pool through time, not its increase. Also, when I look at the eye, the heart, etc. The complexity is simply too vast. Abiogenesis is an absurdity, mathematically. I just can't buy the change of DNA info on such levels it is too complex.
Evolutionist: It is not. Look at an embryology book it is very explainable.
Matt: Embryonic recapitulation?
Evolutionist: No, more than phylogenetic recapitulation.
Matt: What do you mean?
Evolutionist: Okay. First how much paleo do you know for the evolution of life to modern.
Matt: Very little. I know mathematics a bit.
Evolutionist: You have to know the evolutionary trend of light reception? Ok, then we can start at the beginning.
Matt: I know that the DNA molecule is extremely complex.
Evolutionist: Yes and you are going to quote the probability against abiogenesis.
Matt: Do you agree that abiogenesis is impossible mathematically?
Evolutionist: No I don’t. It is not impossible. See, the math is all wrong. For a thorough defense by someone that knows more than I, go to http://www.talkorigins.org.
Matt: I’ve seen stuff like that. I’ve done my own calculations. Permutations on gene sequence is functionally zero when it comes to abiogenesis.
Evolutionist: What is the highest level of math you have had?
Matt: Some calculus.
Evolutionist: This will end in no new light being shed. I’ve heard and defended against these arguments. I am wasting my time. Sorry.
Matt: Okay. Are all the missing links found?
Evolutionist: No they aren’t. We will always be finding more. There is only negative evidence for a deity.
Matt: You mean that the evidence of the eye and how it must have 'evolved' by chance all with concurrent development before the whole can work is NOT evidence against evolution? You’re not qualified as a theologian are you?
Evolutionist: I am a reverend of the Universal Life Church.
Matt: In other words, you're not qualified.
Evolutionist: I am a scientist. I only deal in testable facts not opinion. I have little theological training but I have philosophical training. You have a blind argument requiring faith. Science does not require faith.
Matt: I have evidence.
Evolutionist: Then enter it but it must be testable, passing the double blind test. If it is scientific, publish it. You’ll be famous and change the world forever.
Matt: Oh, I see, any evidence I have must meet YOUR criteria? Okay, I can play that game too.
Evolutionist: No it must meet scientific criteria to be entered. Not mine.
Matt: When you stack the cards, you always win….or think you do. The scientific method is not flawless. It is only as good as those who are using it. You are a sinner. You're mind is affected by sin as is your will.
Evolutionist: But science is self-correcting, theology is not. Prove sin. Prove will.
Matt: What makes you think science is self-correcting? It has lead to survival of the fittest in society. It is not evolutionary theory that stops the man in the alley from bashing your brains and robbing you, it is God in his heart.
Evolutionist: Don’t even tell me that it is god. And why is he lurking in the ally anyway? That’s the monkey juices flowing. 79% of all inmates convicted of violent crime is of a Judeo-Christian orientation.
Matt: Really? Wow. Does that also go for atheistic Russia’s political system as well as China's that have murdered millions? Don't you see? Presuppositions cause you and me to see things differently. You must believe in evolution . Your god is science. You have faith in it. My faith is in God. You have faith that it will answer all questions.
Evolutionist: No. I know it won’t answer all questions where you think that religion can. I don’t have faith. Evolution stands with or without my beliefs. It is TESTABLE.
Matt: So is my faith. Religion cannot answer all questions. Neither can Christianity. That is what happens when you encounter God. You encounter areas that you cannot fathom.
Evolutionist: Ok you believe in a god, a non-provable god. Science asks where did he come from. Your answer is that God is the only causeless cause.
Matt: Yep. Time is a function of matter, correct? Time exists when matter exists. You know this, right?
Evolutionist: We are at an impasse, good day sir.
Matt: Hold on. God is outside of time. Therefore, he can be the uncaused cause. That is perfectly logical.
Evolutionist: I’m going. Evolution is a fact. It is empirical evidence.

http://www.carm.org/dialogues/evolutionisfact.htm

 

[Barbarian]

Yes. I'm a theologian. So, I'm utterly qualified to disprove evolution.

Hey, my barber thinks he's qualified to discuss evolution. Actually, he knows a bit more than the theologian above, because he knows that evolutionary theory isn't about chance, and he knows that useful new genes evolve, and he knows abiogenesis is not part of evolutionary theory.

Of course, barbers work in the real world, cutting real hair and actually doing something useful in the physical universe.

Which may explain the difference.

 

[kellivision]

I justed wasted minutes of my life reading that . Anyway, evolution is fact, and the theory of evolution is the scientific theory that explains it.

 

[Heidi]

What matters is what's true, not what men say. Some people believe in aliens, others believe that Elvis still lives and still others believe that the holocaust never happened. When people put their faith in the fallible human being, all he'll get is fallibility. :

 

[Loren Michael]

What matters is what's true, not what men say. Some people believe in aliens, others believe that Elvis still lives and still others believe that the holocaust never happened. When people put their faith in the fallible human being, all he'll get is fallibility. :

that's very correct. people are fallible, and what really matters is the underlying truth of a situation. our fallible human minds may tug us in one direction or another, maybe cause us to overlook something completely.

of course, the way we get around this, to find out what is "true", is we get together and we agree or disagree on things. we look at things closely and we use evidence that has been collected, and we share it with other people to verify that we're not crazy. we have sets of rules to make sure no one cheats or mucks up the little universe of what we actually "know". and then we always leave a little room for reasonable doubt. we always say, "this is what we know so far. if anyone has anything they'd like to add, you know the drill."

:angel:

 

[Heidi]

Actually it boils down to; if you agree with God, you'll always be right. If you disagree with him, you'll always be wrong. It's very simple. :

 

[Khristeeanos]

Actually it boils down to; if you agree with God, you'll always be right. If you disagree with him, you'll always be wrong. It's very simple. :

That is it!!!

Finally somebody gets it correct!

Thanks, Heidi!

God's Word "the Bible" states that there were two literal people who lived a certain time ago and lists their descendants (more literal people).

If we add up the years, it adds up to around 6,000.

And there was no death before man's sin.

Therefore - there was nothing before 4000 BC.



And....



...




...





NO EVOLUTION!!!!!!

 

[Heidi]

Actually what's interesting, is that it probably adds up to a lot longer than 6,000 years. Most of the men before Noah, and even many after Noah, lived almost a millenium because there was no polution, STD's, etc. So since the generations are calculated came from men, not women, who knows how long man has existed? :

 

[Imagican]

Actually it boils down to; if you agree with God, you'll always be right. If you disagree with him, you'll always be wrong. It's very simple. :

That is it!!!

Finally somebody gets it correct!

Thanks, Heidi!

God's Word "the Bible" states that there were two literal people who lived a certain time ago and lists their descendants (more literal people).

If we add up the years, it adds up to around 6,000.

And there was no death before man's sin.

Therefore - there was nothing before 4000 BC.



And....



...




...





NO EVOLUTION!!!!!!

You assume much my friend. Your assumption being that that the Word as 'taught' to you, is indeed the Word as offered by God. This is quite possibly 'false assumption'. The major flaw in this assumption is assuming that men of the past, with limited understanding, were capable of discerning the Word as it is written. The Bible itself DOES NOT STATE THAT THE EARTH IS ONLY SIX THOUSAND YEARS OLD. This is an assumption of those that choose to read and understand it thus. They were/are wrong. They weren't wrong for guessing, they were wrong for believing that which they didn't understand.