An outsider's Understanding of Christianity.

[Milk-Drops]

I want to have a discussion of something that I think really needs to be discussed. I really enjoy haveing deep discussions with people and learning about different points of view. Though on thing that has me concerned, and one of the reason that I left the Church to begin with. I have always found that due to the size, and mass assumption of the acceptance of Christian Doctrine, that its hard for Christians to fully understand how an outsider might see Christian organizations. Now, I want to be clear that I am not attacking Christianity at all when I state this, I'm just throwing out something that me and several other people I've talked to have felt when trying to have conversations with either Christians or Christian groups.

The biggest thing from an outsiders perspective that I have noticed is that there seems to be a big unwelcome sign left over the door. It is expected of the outsider to already respect, understand, allow, and favor the opinions of Christianity with zero expectation of receiving the same treatment. Now this isn't about individuals, but the whole zietgiest of the whole USA Christian culture.

Another point is that it seems that outsiders are treated as if they are invisible and less than Christians. Meaning under the law, politically, and treated as if we are always an enemy. A massive cloud of distrust, and fear seems to be hovering over this idea.

Really, what I'm getting at, is that it seems from an outside perspective, that the US Christian culture doesn't seem to care, or want to care about outsiders, and their seems to be a wall where outsiders are always going to get the short end.

Anyone care to share their thoughts on this?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I don't believe unbelievers are met with a wall of unacceptance or a lack of tolerance. But many of them see the reception they do receive -- a stand for biblical truth -- as a lack of tolerance for them and their beliefs. This is because "tolerance" has been redefined over the last generation so as to include the beliefs of a person as being accepted as valid in order for the person to be accepted. That's a lie. I can. and do, respect and befriend people of any creed, faith, lifestyle, race (though I don't beleive there is such a thing as "race" as we are all one race: human), nationality, etc. But if they won't let me befriend them unless I acknowledge the "validity" of their faith or worldview when it differs from the clear teaching of the Bible, I therefore cannot befriend them. I will not deny my faith in Christ for the sake of their comfort level. If they cannot afford me the same courtesy I extend them, we have no basis for friendship.

 

[Sparkey]

I want to have a discussion of something that I think really needs to be discussed. I really enjoy haveing deep discussions with people and learning about different points of view. Though on thing that has me concerned, and one of the reason that I left the Church to begin with. I have always found that due to the size, and mass assumption of the acceptance of Christian Doctrine, that its hard for Christians to fully understand how an outsider might see Christian organizations. Now, I want to be clear that I am not attacking Christianity at all when I state this, I'm just throwing out something that me and several other people I've talked to have felt when trying to have conversations with either Christians or Christian groups.

The biggest thing from an outsiders perspective that I have noticed is that there seems to be a big unwelcome sign left over the door. It is expected of the outsider to already respect, understand, allow, and favor the opinions of Christianity with zero expectation of receiving the same treatment. Now this isn't about individuals, but the whole zietgiest of the whole USA Christian culture.

Another point is that it seems that outsiders are treated as if they are invisible and less than Christians. Meaning under the law, politically, and treated as if we are always an enemy. A massive cloud of distrust, and fear seems to be hovering over this idea.

Really, what I'm getting at, is that it seems from an outside perspective, that the US Christian culture doesn't seem to care, or want to care about outsiders, and their seems to be a wall where outsiders are always going to get the short end.

Anyone care to share their thoughts on this?

My thought has included the instructions given to Israel about their relations with "strangers" and that this need to be widened, not narrowed, as the focus has gone from Israelite toward "Stranger" to one of a united family of both Jew and Gentile and their witness and testimony to the nations whom are also His sheep, also created in the womb by our Most High God.

A servant does not know the business of the household, yet a son does. We, as Christians would do well to heed the lessons of inclusion that are provided to us by the lives of the prophets and children of ages past. Essentially, this is the message that the prophets themselves wondered about as they considered the movement of the Holy Spirit when their lives were effected.

A question has been raised about the barren fig tree. Some may look and see that it was cursed and withered in a very short period of time. At the start of Jesus' ministry we see this is the case for the disciples. But there is another story about a tree that "cumbereth the ground".

Lord, let it alone this year also.

Here is astonishing Grace indeed! Astonishing Grace, I say, that the Lord Jesus should concern Himself with a barren fig tree; that He should step in to stop the blow from a barren fig tree! True He stopped the blow but for a time: but why did He stop it at all? Why did He not fetch out the ax? Why did He not do execution? Why did He not cut it down? Barren fig tree, it is well for thee that there is a Jesus at God's right hand, a Jesus of to have compassion for a barren fig tree - else justice had never let thee alone to cumber the ground as thou least done. When Israel also sinned against God, down they would had gone, but that Moses stood in the breach. "Let Me alone," said God to him, "that I may consume them in a moment, and I will make of thee a great nation." Barren fig tree! Dost thou hear? Thou knowest not how often the hand has been raised up to strike, and how many years since you would have been cut down, had not Jesus caught hold of the ax.

"Let Me alone, let Me fetch My blow,"

"Cut it down! why cumbereth it the ground?"

Wilt thou not hear yet, barren fig tree? Wilt thou provoke still? Thou hast wearied men, and provoked the justice of God: and wilt thou weary my God, also?

I speak not to thee, for I am that barren tree.​

I am the one who needs to hear and quit stopping up my ear to the sound of His voice:

But Moses said to the people, “Do not fear! Stand by and see the salvation (Hebrew, yeshua) of the Lord which He will accomplish for you today; for the Egyptians whom you have seen today, you will never see them again forever. The Lord will fight for you while you keep silent” (Exodus 14:13-14).

I am reminded of Isaiah 30:15: “For thus the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, has said, ‘In repentance and rest you shall be saved, In quietness and trust is your strength.’ But you were not willing, …”

TWENTY THINGS I WISH I WOULD HAVE KNOWN ABOUT GOD's HEART FOR STRANGERS:
Leviticus 19:33-34 ESV
“When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Matthew 25:35 ESV
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,

Exodus 22:21 ESV
“You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt.

Malachi 3:5 ESV
“Then I will draw near to you for judgment. I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who swear falsely, against those who oppress the hired worker in his wages, the widow and the fatherless, against those who thrust aside the sojourner, and do not fear me, says the Lord of hosts.

Deuteronomy 27:19 ESV
“‘Cursed be anyone who perverts the justice due to the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

Zechariah 7:9-10 ESV
“Thus says the Lord of hosts, Render true judgments, show kindness and mercy to one another, do not oppress the widow, the fatherless, the sojourner, or the poor, and let none of you devise evil against another in your heart.”

Jeremiah 7:5-7 ESV
“For if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly execute justice one with another, if you do not oppress the sojourner, the fatherless, or the widow, or shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not go after other gods to your own harm, then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave of old to your fathers forever.

Ezekiel 47:22 ESV
You shall allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the sojourners who reside among you and have had children among you. They shall be to you as native-born children of Israel. With you they shall be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel.

Romans 13:1-7 ESV
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. ...

Deuteronomy 26:5
“And you shall make response before the Lord your God, ‘A wandering Aramean was my father. And he went down into Egypt and sojourned there, few in number, and there he became a nation, great, mighty, and populous.

Leviticus 25:35 ESV
“If your brother becomes poor and cannot maintain himself with you, you shall support him as though he were a stranger and a sojourner, and he shall live with you.

Hebrews 13:2 ESV
Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Proverbs 31:8-9 ESV
Open your mouth for the mute, for the rights of all who are destitute. Open your mouth, judge righteously, defend the rights of the poor and needy.

Deuteronomy 10:18 ESV
He executes justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the sojourner, giving him food and clothing.

Matthew 5:46-47 ESV
For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

Genesis 18:1-8 ESV
And the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth and said, “O Lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant. Let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree, while I bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on—since you have come to your servant.” So they said, “Do as you have said.” ...

Genesis 12:1 ESV
Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you.

Matthew 5:40-42 ESV
And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

Ruth 1:16 ESV
But Ruth said, “Do not urge me to leave you or to return from following you. For where you go I will go, and where you lodge I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and your God my God.

Psalm 137:1-9 ESV
By the waters of Babylon, there we sat down and wept, when we remembered Zion. On the willows there we hung up our lyres. For there our captors required of us songs, and our tormentors, mirth, saying, “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!” How shall we sing the Lord's song in a foreign land? If I forget you, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget its skill! ...

Psalm 137:1-9 ESV
By the waters of Babylon, there we sat down and wept, when we remembered Zion. On the willows there we hung up our lyres. For there our captors required of us songs, and our tormentors, mirth, saying, “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!” How shall we sing the Lord's song in a foreign land? If I forget you, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget its skill!

 

[WIP]

I don't believe unbelievers are met with a wall of unacceptance or a lack of tolerance. But many of them see the reception they do receive -- a stand for biblical truth -- as a lack of tolerance for them and their beliefs. This is because "tolerance" has been redefined over the last generation so as to include the beliefs of a person as being accepted as valid in order for the person to be accepted. That's a lie. I can. and do, respect and befriend people of any creed, faith, lifestyle, race (though I don't beleive there is such a thing as "race" as we are all one race: human), nationality, etc. But if they won't let me befriend them unless I acknowledge the "validity" of their faith or worldview when it differs from the clear teaching of the Bible, I therefore cannot befriend them. I will not deny my faith in Christ for the sake of their comfort level. If they cannot afford me the same courtesy I extend them, we have no basis for friendship.

I wanted to say something similar to this but couldn't find the words. I agree. To tolerate another does not have to mean accept and embrace how they live.

 

[Grazer]

I wanted to say something similar to this but couldn't find the words. I agree. To tolerate another does not have to mean accept and embrace how they live.

True but it helps if you get to the tolerance part first

 

[evenifigoalone]

I personally think both sides share some fault. The mentality of "If you don't agree with you, you're the enemy" is pretty harmful, IMO. I've seen people on both sides act this way. I think both sides point fingers too much, often refuse to see the person behind the opinion.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

True but it helps if you get to the tolerance part first

I did. Just not the way you understand tolerance.

 

[P31Woman]

I want to have a discussion of something that I think really needs to be discussed. I really enjoy haveing deep discussions with people and learning about different points of view. Though on thing that has me concerned, and one of the reason that I left the Church to begin with. I have always found that due to the size, and mass assumption of the acceptance of Christian Doctrine, that its hard for Christians to fully understand how an outsider might see Christian organizations. Now, I want to be clear that I am not attacking Christianity at all when I state this, I'm just throwing out something that me and several other people I've talked to have felt when trying to have conversations with either Christians or Christian groups.

The biggest thing from an outsiders perspective that I have noticed is that there seems to be a big unwelcome sign left over the door. It is expected of the outsider to already respect, understand, allow, and favor the opinions of Christianity with zero expectation of receiving the same treatment. Now this isn't about individuals, but the whole zietgiest of the whole USA Christian culture.

Another point is that it seems that outsiders are treated as if they are invisible and less than Christians. Meaning under the law, politically, and treated as if we are always an enemy. A massive cloud of distrust, and fear seems to be hovering over this idea.

Really, what I'm getting at, is that it seems from an outside perspective, that the US Christian culture doesn't seem to care, or want to care about outsiders, and their seems to be a wall where outsiders are always going to get the short end.

Anyone care to share their thoughts on this?

You are correct. If you came to my Church and wanted to promote your beliefs a huge wave of opposition would greet you. The your not welcome back sign would remain up as long as your goal to meet with us is to tell us about your beliefs. We are simply not interested.

When we are interested we invite people for planned debates.

What you are facing is called people of conviction not merely a passing belief or guess.

My Church does not hold meetings to promote other beliefs. You are welcome to come learn our faith but we are not interested in yours being promoted in our meetings.


(Of course I would not expect a group of people from other religious beliefs to allow me to teach my Christian doctrines in their services either)

 

[Jake]

I think it's sad that this is one of the reasons you left the Church. Why allow man to have that much power over you when it comes to your relationships with Christ?

Psalm 146:3 Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save.

 

[Milk-Drops]

I think it's sad that this is one of the reasons you left the Church. Why allow man to have that much power over you when it comes to your relationships with Christ?

Psalm 146:3 Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save.

Because if you live in a small close nit community that likes to gossip and cares more about outing people than actually hearing about their views, and then making an example of you, to the point of socially isolating you to the point of depression and the brink of suicidal thoughts, then you come online to just have basic discussions and you try and try for over a year to just have a simple conversation, hoping someone won't assume your entire moral, political, or lifestyle based on a sentence.

I've never had that luxury. We as humans are social creatures, cut out the social aspect and we don't tend to do to well on the whole trusting and self worth side of the stick.

 

[Milk-Drops]

I wanted to say something similar to this but couldn't find the words. I agree. To tolerate another does not have to mean accept and embrace how they live.

The thing is, I've never asked anyone to accept or embrace anything that I've done. Yet, some times posters will assume that I demand people accept me, and I'll get lengthy posts thrown at me where people will tell me what "they" think I believe, my opinions, my stances, etc. Then continue to beat up on this straw man and then act as if they rebuked me when I have barely even stated a full thought yet. I Understand to an extent why many Christians would be defensive, but at the same time it seems that many take the lazy route of grouping non believes together and forget to take a quick second and just ask the person the simple question of, "What is your opinion on this?".

That is something I've come across time and time again, especially in the political forum. My stances are already assumed and arguments are already formed before I can even post my actual stance. Then most of the time, what I actually post seems to get ignored anyway because its not a convenient memorized position that can easily be refuted without the poster taking a second to inquire more on my part.

Its occasionally assumed that I'm the bad guy from the start and that I'm demanding tolerence before I say a single word.

 

[Jake]

Because if you live in a small close nit community that likes to gossip and cares more about outing people than actually hearing about their views, and then making an example of you, to the point of socially isolating you to the point of depression and the brink of suicidal thoughts, then you come online to just have basic discussions and you try and try for over a year to just have a simple conversation, hoping someone won't assume your entire moral, political, or lifestyle based on a sentence.

I've never had that luxury. We as humans are social creatures, cut out the social aspect and we don't tend to do to well on the whole trusting and self worth side of the stick.

I understand people who claim Christ can be like that, it is one of the reasons I do not attend an organized church, but it still doesn't explain why you would walk away from Christ because of man. Western Christianity is skewed, but we can still be led by the Spirit in it all. That was my point.

Unbelievers sometimes are looking for a reason to continue in their disobedience. Ghandi once said that he likes Jesus of Christianity but not the people of Christianity.

 

[Milk-Drops]

I understand people who claim Christ can be like that, it is one of the reasons I do not attend an organized church, but it still doesn't explain why you would walk away from Christ because of man. Western Christianity is skewed, but we can still be led by the Spirit in it all. That was my point.

Unbelievers sometimes are looking for a reason to continue in their disobedience. Ghandi once said that he likes Jesus of Christianity but not the people of Christianity.

Oh, the people didn't make me disbelieve in Christianity. There was actually other factors to that, that I won't go into detail about at the moment. I just became jaded to the whole Christian community for a long time because I tried several churches in my area, and ended up not fitting in with them. That is about it. I was disillusioned from the whole kinship ideal due to this wall that I and many others have come across when trying to understand others better, when sometimes, people aren't interested in sharing the same interest of understanding you. ;)

 

[Dustoftheearth]

The thing is, I've never asked anyone to accept or embrace anything that I've done. Yet, some times posters will assume that I demand people accept me, and I'll get lengthy posts thrown at me where people will tell me what "they" think I believe, my opinions, my stances, etc. Then continue to beat up on this straw man and then act as if they rebuked me when I have barely even stated a full thought yet. I Understand to an extent why many Christians would be defensive, but at the same time it seems that many take the lazy route of grouping non believes together and forget to take a quick second and just ask the person the simple question of, "What is your opinion on this?".

That is something I've come across time and time again, especially in the political forum. My stances are already assumed and arguments are already formed before I can even post my actual stance. Then most of the time, what I actually post seems to get ignored anyway because its not a convenient memorized position that can easily be refuted without the poster taking a second to inquire more on my part.

Its occasionally assumed that I'm the bad guy from the start and that I'm demanding tolerence before I say a single word.

Hi Meatballsub!

Do you believe that the church (as you see it) reflects the same said actions, towards you and other non-believers, as Jesus Christ would?

 

[Milk-Drops]

Hi Meatballsub!

Do you believe that the church (as you see it) reflects the same said actions, towards you and other non-believers, as Jesus Christ would?

Not at all. from what I read of Jesus, he was a patient and understanding person.

 

[Kaliani]

I think the pain of most outsiders is that they don't believe they can find such a rare, life-changing love as Christ's in Church. So they settle for 'tolerance' which may just mean respect or courtesy.

Now people substitute Christly love for 'You go your way, I'll go mine.'

The people who ask for this ask for too little, not too much. Christ saw people as being MORE than their choices, career or past mistakes, not equal as same.

And the people who offer 'tolerance' cheat their neighbour.

 

[By Grace]

I want to have a discussion of something that I think really needs to be discussed. I really enjoy haveing deep discussions with people and learning about different points of view. Though on thing that has me concerned, and one of the reason that I left the Church to begin with. I have always found that due to the size, and mass assumption of the acceptance of Christian Doctrine, that its hard for Christians to fully understand how an outsider might see Christian organizations. Now, I want to be clear that I am not attacking Christianity at all when I state this, I'm just throwing out something that me and several other people I've talked to have felt when trying to have conversations with either Christians or Christian groups.

Churches exist for one, single purpose, and that is to worship and exalt Jesus Christ, our Savior. Discussions, such as you suggest, are found in some Universalist "churches" or in the public library, or perhaps in some Sunday School classes, depending upon the subject under discussion. One thing that is taken as a given in the church as a given is the authority of the Bible that it has over our life. We call it the only rule for both the faith, and the practice of that faith. therefore, a "discussion" on the authority of Scripture just will not happen in churches; that is an undermining of faith, which is not tolerated in Bible-believing churches, or in some main line churches.

The biggest thing from an outsiders perspective that I have noticed is that there seems to be a big unwelcome sign left over the door. It is expected of the outsider to already respect, understand, allow, and favor the opinions of Christianity with zero expectation of receiving the same treatment. Now this isn't about individuals, but the whole zietgiest of the whole USA Christian culture.

Your imagination is active, I'll give you that, but there has never been a church that hangs out "unbelievers unwelcome" signs

Another point is that it seems that outsiders are treated as if they are invisible and less than Christians. Meaning under the law, politically, and treated as if we are always an enemy. A massive cloud of distrust, and fear seems to be hovering over this idea.

Have you ever gone to a church on a Sunday morning to support this thesis?

Really, what I'm getting at, is that it seems from an outside perspective, that the US Christian culture doesn't seem to care, or want to care about outsiders, and their seems to be a wall where outsiders are always going to get the short end.

This is a HUGE generalization, and like most generalizations, this is not in keeping with the facts.

Anyone care to share their thoughts on this?

This is essentially a straw man argument, which is a logical fallacy and begging the question fallacy. The reason for that is because you set up your understanding of what happens in a church, then you "beat up the straw man you created" hence the name of that fallacy, then you ask questions based upon your fallacious understanding of what a church is. which is called "begging the question". That is not being mean, or nasty, but it is whittling your OP down to the simplest elements.

However, since I believe that you are not trying to "set us up, here" permit me to ask some pertinent questions about your recent experiences with a church.

1. Primary is the question "Are you seeking answers, or are you seeking ammo for arguments?? Iif you are really seeking to know Jesus Christ, then you need to tell the pastor "I want to know how to be saved" when you greet him at the door.

2. It is common for more of the formal (we call them liturgical) churches to have people reading from a Book of Common Prayer and/or a hymnal. That can indeed be intimidating. the more contemporary churches have choruses, which are usually projected on a wall for all to see, and sing along.

3. Most Christians take politics seriously, but because we want unity when we worship Jesus we do not talk about them in the service. Do do you want a church which there is nothing settled, or do you want a church that stands upon God's Word, the Bible?
​

I thing it is sad that you live in a very small town, because there are many churches that are small, and essentially have the personality of a cat. You rub the fur of a cat the wrong way, and you get scratched. Likewise in some small churches. If you are really serious, and want to learn things, I suggest you calling the pastor and ask a few questions of him. Ask why the Bible is so important to the church? Ask why Jesus came to the earth. Ask how is it possible for someone to know with a certainty that they will enter heaven? Those questions should be asked, and will be answered for all those who earnestly seek answers.

REALLY, when it comes down to the brass tacks does it matter that a liberal or a conservative is in the White House if there is a God in Heaven who can change the mind of any ruler with a mere snap of His finger? Who would have thought that Obama would NOT close Gitmo, and authorize drone strikes on the Taliban abroad, and even that American turncoat who was a Muslim Mullah? That is something that is most likely comming from aq conservative, not a liberal. Can you see my point?

You see since there is a life after this life, and Jesus said it, so we do not quarrel or quibble with that, getting there SHOULD be our highest priority. Heck, Obama will be gone in 2016, and surely Biden will not be elected POTUS, so who knows what will happen in politics. But Jesus told us about the end, and what transpires then, so it is far wiser to prepare for that than to prepare for the next election.

 

[Grazer]

This is the second thread concerned with how Christianity is perceived. From my perspective, these concerns are justified to an extent but I think its a good question to ask and to be honest about how we look at this.

Let's not bury our heads in the sand on this one, Christianity is not known for the things Christ is known for.

 

[Milk-Drops]

Churches exist for one, single purpose, and that is to worship and exalt Jesus Christ, our Savior. Discussions, such as you suggest, are found in some Universalist "churches" or in the public library, or perhaps in some Sunday School classes, depending upon the subject under discussion. One thing that is taken as a given in the church as a given is the authority of the Bible that it has over our life. We call it the only rule for both the faith, and the practice of that faith. therefore, a "discussion" on the authority of Scripture just will not happen in churches; that is an undermining of faith, which is not tolerated in Bible-believing churches, or in some main line churches.

Modern churches include bible study, youth groups, councling, social events, bake sales, visits, lectures, and community outreach. Your legalistic approach ignores many of the advancements of the modern christian church. I should know, I went to church for several years and was part of many of these events, until I had questions that made people uncomfortable.

Your imagination is active, I'll give you that, but there has never been a church that hangs out "unbelievers unwelcome" signs

Yeah, legalistic nonsense. I know of plenty of churches that don't have a physical sign, but make it uncomfortable for new people or for people who just want to understand more. This isn't me talking about people coming in and telling the congregation what they believe is stupid, no, its people being turned away when they don't automatically accept everything that is told to them at face value.

Have you ever gone to a church on a Sunday morning to support this thesis?

yes I have, and when I was part of the church when I was younger, I witnessed it.

This is a HUGE generalization, and like most generalizations, this is not in keeping with the facts.

Then you can easily demonstrate how its wrong by explaining how your church possibly does outreach to outsiders.

This is essentially a straw man argument, which is a logical fallacy and begging the question fallacy. The reason for that is because you set up your understanding of what happens in a church, then you "beat up the straw man you created" hence the name of that fallacy, then you ask questions based upon your fallacious understanding of what a church is. which is called "begging the question". That is not being mean, or nasty, but it is whittling your OP down to the simplest elements.

I understand logical fallacies enough to know that you are using begging the question wrong. I presented my experiences and the consensus of other and presented as my opinion, meaning its not a straw man when I make it clear that its opinion from the start. Its also not begging the question to flat out ask people to share their opinions on the matter.

1. Primary is the question "Are you seeking answers, or are you seeking ammo for arguments?? Iif you are really seeking to know Jesus Christ, then you need to tell the pastor "I want to know how to be saved" when you greet him at the door.​

I was a Christian for many years and fully believed in the Bible. I started learning and taking interest in other religions and history. I would ask my pastor question and I would be told that I shouldn't worry myself with such questions and was given a "shut up or sit down" style of rebutal.

2. It is common for more of the formal (we call them liturgical) churches to have people reading from a Book of Common Prayer and/or a hymnal. That can indeed be intimidating. the more contemporary churches have choruses, which are usually projected on a wall for all to see, and sing along.

I have gone to a Catholic church, Evangelical church, Non denominational, and a Methodist church.

3. Most Christians take politics seriously, but because we want unity when we worship Jesus we do not talk about them in the service. Do do you want a church which there is nothing settled, or do you want a church that stands upon God's Word, the Bible?

All four of the Churches I mentioned were heavily invovled in politics and actually informed us on how we should vote. Or we were supporting sin.

I thing it is sad that you live in a very small town, because there are many churches that are small, and essentially have the personality of a cat. You rub the fur of a cat the wrong way, and you get scratched. Likewise in some small churches. If you are really serious, and want to learn things, I suggest you calling the pastor and ask a few questions of him. Ask why the Bible is so important to the church? Ask why Jesus came to the earth. Ask how is it possible for someone to know with a certainty that they will enter heaven? Those questions should be asked, and will be answered for all those who earnestly seek answers.

Did that, I even read a whole bunch of apologetic and even read the Bible through a few times cover to cover. I learned a bunch of stuff that I never heard in sermons. Which became to sources of my questions, which caused the said controversy. Pastors tend to not want to talk about genocide, slaves, or incest when they preach against such things, yet they are in the bible and major parts of the very roots of the religion.

REALLY, when it comes down to the brass tacks does it matter that a liberal or a conservative is in the White House if there is a God in Heaven who can change the mind of any ruler with a mere snap of His finger? Who would have thought that Obama would NOT close Gitmo, and authorize drone strikes on the Taliban abroad, and even that American turncoat who was a Muslim Mullah? That is something that is most likely comming from aq conservative, not a liberal. Can you see my point?

Sorry my thread isn't about politics, I'm not going to discuss it.

You see since there is a life after this life, and Jesus said it, so we do not quarrel or quibble with that, getting there SHOULD be our highest priority. But Jesus told us about the end, and what transpires then, so it is far wiser to prepare for that

Actually John spoke of Revelations and the book wasn't even originally in the first Bible printings because it was considered the ramblings of a mad man. Later the Catholic and Protestant churches added revelations to the bible.​

 

[TDQ]

As someone who was once (and comparing my views to others I still am in some people's eyes) I can attest to this and it really is a shame. I was an atheist for most of my life, and honestly those were some of the hardest times of my life; not because of any guilt I had or some nonsense like that, but because people I had known my entire life flat out refused to be around me because of it. It's like they had just wiped any existence of me from their mind, and it's a shame because that kind of attitude turns people further away from God.