An outsider's Understanding of Christianity.

[Mike S]

Modern churches include bible study, youth groups, councling, social events, bake sales, visits, lectures, and community outreach. Your legalistic approach ignores many of the advancements of the modern christian church. I should know, I went to church for several years and was part of many of these events, until I had questions that made people uncomfortable.

What were some of your questions?

Yeah, legalistic nonsense. I know of plenty of churches that don't have a physical sign, but make it uncomfortable for new people or for people who just want to understand more. This isn't me talking about people coming in and telling the congregation what they believe is stupid, no, its people being turned away when they don't automatically accept everything that is told to them at face value.

yes I have, and when I was part of the church when I was younger, I witnessed it.

Then you can easily demonstrate how its wrong by explaining how your church possibly does outreach to outsiders.

I understand logical fallacies enough to know that you are using begging the question wrong. I presented my experiences and the consensus of other and presented as my opinion, meaning its not a straw man when I make it clear that its opinion from the start. Its also not begging the question to flat out ask people to share their opinions on the matter.

I was a Christian for many years and fully believed in the Bible. I started learning and taking interest in other religions and history. I would ask my pastor question and I would be told that I shouldn't worry myself with such questions and was given a "shut up or sit down" style of rebutal.

I'm sorry this happened, I wouldn't react well to that either. But, my experience as been different my pastors have always been willing to talk openly about questions people have. A close friend - Baptist clergy - and I lead a Bible study group before worship on Sundays, and we always have great conversations answering questions. Th only times we've had difficulty have been when we had visiting clergy with us who are VERY opinionated, wanting to lecture rather than discuss.

I have gone to a Catholic church, Evangelical church, Non denominational, and a Methodist church.

All four of the Churches I mentioned were heavily invovled in politics and actually informed us on how we should vote. Or we were supporting sin.

We don't discuss politics from the pulpit, nor do we permit members to pressure others about political views. But, in private discussions, we poke at each other about all kinds of things, as friends do. Many of my closest friends are at the other end of the political spectrum from me.

Did that, I even read a whole bunch of apologetic and even read the Bible through a few times cover to cover. I learned a bunch of stuff that I never heard in sermons. Which became to sources of my questions, which caused the said controversy. Pastors tend to not want to talk about genocide, slaves, or incest when they preach against such things, yet they are in the bible and major parts of the very roots of the religion.

Sorry my thread isn't about politics, I'm not going to discuss it.

Actually John spoke of Revelations and the book wasn't even originally in the first Bible printings because it was considered the ramblings of a mad man. Later the Catholic and Protestant churches added revelations to the bible.

 

[Milk-Drops]

What were some of your questions?

At the time, I was confused by my Non denominational Church's approach of trying to preach a peaceful message of loving our fellow man and saying that the Bible never told stories of separation or intolerance. I asked out of pure curiosity what the whole point of the many concurring in Genesis and Joshua. I was heavily confused because of the concurring explained and the many campaigns to rid the land of Israel of non Israelite people.

I asked about the point of slavery, not Hebrew Slavery but the slavery of those from surrounding nations. I asked about why are only the sexual laws carried over from the OT and many of the other laws that weren't tossed out by grace ignored.

Those were just some of the ones I asked. As I learned about other religions, biology, geology, etc., I would ask questions such as how did the Bible account for some species and for genetic evidence, etc. In the end I just new more than my pastor wished to know himself and was just told I wasn't welcome. I was still a Christian at this point, but it was made clear that I wasn't welcome.

That and I refused to go to a protest of an abortion clinic 50 miles away that involved using children as young as 6. I don't think children should be protesting serious issues like that without at least being old enough to grasp what exactly is going on.

 

[P31Woman]

At the time, I was confused by my Non denominational Church's approach of trying to preach a peaceful message of loving our fellow man and saying that the Bible never told stories of separation or intolerance. I asked out of pure curiosity what the whole point of the many concurring in Genesis and Joshua. I was heavily confused because of the concurring explained and the many campaigns to rid the land of Israel of non Israelite people.

I asked about the point of slavery, not Hebrew Slavery but the slavery of those from surrounding nations. I asked about why are only the sexual laws carried over from the OT and many of the other laws that weren't tossed out by grace ignored.

Those were just some of the ones I asked. As I learned about other religions, biology, geology, etc., I would ask questions such as how did the Bible account for some species and for genetic evidence, etc. In the end I just new more than my pastor wished to know himself and was just told I wasn't welcome. I was still a Christian at this point, but it was made clear that I wasn't welcome.

That and I refused to go to a protest of an abortion clinic 50 miles away that involved using children as young as 6. I don't think children should be protesting serious issues like that without at least being old enough to grasp what exactly is going on.

I have never in my life had a church I was a member of gather a group of it's members for an abortion protest. Not once. And I am a more active than normal pro-lifer.
I don't think I have first hand knowledge of any Church that's done that and I know hundreds of Churches.

In Black Churches it's extremely common for the pastor/bishop whomever to pass out copies of the election ballot and tell their people who to vote for. It's common for them to even have politicians come speak from the pulpit and have fund raisers for them. I've never seen that occur in a predominately white Church. The Churches I join preach the bible every sunday from the pulpit.

Like I told Vanguard and Grazer. Our small group study time is when we ALL ask the hard questions and do deeper into theology and scripture. That groups is the more dedicated group and tend the be the ones who do more than just show up for worship on Sunday morning. Most of the time our small group meets on Sunday nights but I believe in most other Churches they have weeknight small group time.

 

[P31Woman]

The thing is, I've never asked anyone to accept or embrace anything that I've done. Yet, some times posters will assume that I demand people accept me, and I'll get lengthy posts thrown at me where people will tell me what "they" think I believe, my opinions, my stances, etc. Then continue to beat up on this straw man and then act as if they rebuked me when I have barely even stated a full thought yet. I Understand to an extent why many Christians would be defensive, but at the same time it seems that many take the lazy route of grouping non believes together and forget to take a quick second and just ask the person the simple question of, "What is your opinion on this?".

That is something I've come across time and time again, especially in the political forum. My stances are already assumed and arguments are already formed before I can even post my actual stance. Then most of the time, what I actually post seems to get ignored anyway because its not a convenient memorized position that can easily be refuted without the poster taking a second to inquire more on my part.

Its occasionally assumed that I'm the bad guy from the start and that I'm demanding tolerence before I say a single word.

Don't really have a clue what you think is do bad but we have convicted murder, convicted child molester, drunkard, gluttons, foul mouths, greedy, adulters, theives, drug abuser, homosexual. wive beater, child abuser, ------- you name it we got it or had it and we are a small country church.

BTW, Why did you reject Jesus Christ?

When you have relationship with Jesus Christ you don't reject him because of unanswered questions nor because of what other people do to you.

While on this earth most of us won't get the answers we cry out for such as why did my child suffer so long and die such a painful death? Why did my mother allow my father to beat us children until blood was dripping off our bodies? My my crackhead mother would sell us out as prostitutes to men she knew were evil and abusive? Why did James mother put him in boiling water?

The deal is we come to Christ striped naked of all our pride and desires to know why and cry out "help me" in my terrible sinful state. I believe you are who you say you are and you alone can help to connect to our loving powerful almighty God. Help me believe in your more. Forgive me of all my sins and help me trust you as I die to self and live according to your word and leading. Please make yourself real to me and I humble myself at the foot of the cross.

 

[P31Woman]

This is the second thread concerned with how Christianity is perceived. From my perspective, these concerns are justified to an extent but I think its a good question to ask and to be honest about how we look at this.

Let's not bury our heads in the sand on this one, Christianity is not known for the things Christ is known for.

We will be hated because our Master was hated. Do you know what happened to our master and those who were part of his inner circle?


Mark 15

<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>“Would you like me to release to you this ‘King of the Jews’?” Pilate asked. <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>(For he realized by now that the leading priests had arrested Jesus out of envy.) <sup class="versenum">11 </sup>But at this point the leading priests stirred up the crowd to demand the release of Barabbas instead of Jesus. <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>Pilate asked them, “Then what should I do with this man you call the king of the Jews?”

<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>They shouted back, “Crucify him!”

<sup class="versenum">14 </sup>“Why?” Pilate demanded. “What crime has he committed?”
But the mob roared even louder, “Crucify him!”

<sup class="versenum">15 </sup>So to pacify the crowd, Pilate released Barabbas to them. He ordered Jesus flogged with a lead-tipped whip, then turned him over to the Roman soldiers to be crucified.

 

[P31Woman]

Remember mbs,

God is under NO obligation to anwer any of our questions. Each one of us is still going to be held eternally responsible for the choice we make concerning His Son.

 

[stovebolts]

Meatball Sub,

I understand your perspective in many areas. Actually, I'm sure you and I have had many of the same questions as well as many of the same responses. It's irritating and annoying, but here is what I concluded. When you ask questions about the OT, you'll find that most people don't fully understand the OT culture or languages and rarely do you find any studies on the OT except to support a NT theology. Now then, I'm not saying I'm an OT scholar, but I've spent a fair amount of time in the first 5 books and dabbled in a few other OT books. Why? Because I couldn't find a preacher to help me understand.

The difference between you and I is that when I found something that bothered me in the OT and nobody could explain it to me I didn't hold it against them, and I tucked that little thorn in the back of my head and went searching for answers. Some of them didn't come until decades later. But I didn't let them cause me to stumble and it took a tremendous amount of study to find the answers. Most of the answers came from Jewish writings and honestly, most Christian articles, theologians etc miss the mark or skip right over the subject.

I asked about the point of slavery, not Hebrew Slavery but the slavery of those from surrounding nations. I asked about why are only the sexual laws carried over from the OT and many of the other laws that weren't tossed out by grace ignored.

The point of slavery outside of owning Hebrew slaves was partially cultural and is addressed in Exodus. As you may have found, Hebrew slaves had different stipulations than non-Hebrew slaves according to the Law of Moses. What is not so clear is where culture overrides the Law. Solomon built the temple with slave labor. It was wrong. Solomon did a lot of things wrong. That is an example of culture.

As far as the sexual laws, what exactly are you asking?

 

[By Grace]

Modern churches include bible study, youth groups, councling, social events, bake sales, visits, lectures, and community outreach. Your legalistic approach ignores many of the advancements of the modern christian church. I should know, I went to church for several years and was part of many of these events, until I had questions that made people uncomfortable.

Yeah, legalistic nonsense. I know of plenty of churches that don't have a physical sign, but make it uncomfortable for new people or for people who just want to understand more. This isn't me talking about people coming in and telling the congregation what they believe is stupid, no, its people being turned away when they don't automatically accept everything that is told to them at face value.

Gotta be blunt here, friend. Your usage of the terms "legalistic" and "nonsense" are caustic, dismissive and seem to be an indication of a closed mind rather than an open mind. You were the first to use the concept of "sign" and when I returned the comment, using hyperbole to make a point, you are upset. That is another indication of a person who is entrenched in his way of thinking. As a result, I am wondering if the purpose of this thread is to engage in an honest conversation, or to something else? At this point in my reply, I shall remain open to both possibilities.

yes I have, and when I was part of the church when I was younger, I witnessed it.

How many years ago was that, and at what age were you? I ask because memories often get fuzzy, dusty and selective as we age, and a it is not until age 12, or so that an individual is able to deal in concrete operations which require evaluation and analysis to make a decision based on empirical data. Also due to the raging hormones of adolescence, none of us is able to really make a truly objective analysis of things. Adolescents are notoriously self-centered.

Then you can easily demonstrate how its wrong by explaining how your church possibly does outreach to outsiders.

We deliberately target former addicts, helping them to keep clean, we want to begin a Hispanic outreach, we have church services once per month in the elderly high rises and every year, we go into the projects to reach the children there. What sort of things do you do?

I understand logical fallacies enough to know that you are using begging the question wrong. I presented my experiences and the consensus of other and presented as my opinion, meaning its not a straw man when I make it clear that its opinion from the start. Its also not begging the question to flat out ask people to share their opinions on the matter.

Begging your pardon, but to ask a question based on something not empirical is indeed a logical fallacy (by definition of the term, "begging the question"). In this thread, you are clearly stating your opinion; however you are asking questions based on your assumptions that your earlier childhood recollections are correct. That is the definition of that logical fallacy

I was a Christian for many years and fully believed in the Bible. I started learning and taking interest in other religions and history. I would ask my pastor question and I would be told that I shouldn't worry myself with such questions and was given a "shut up or sit down" style of rebutal.

I am truly sorry that that was your experience, but I ask the question of the place where that happened, and the manner that it was received?. Without knowing the exact circumstances, I can not really speak to the issue. Could is it the case that your questions were perceived to be hostile and argumentative? Could your questions be asked better in a one-on-one situation rather than in the group?

I have gone to a Catholic church, Evangelical church, Non denominational, and a Methodist church.

All four of the Churches I mentioned were heavily invovled in politics and actually informed us on how we should vote

I'll take your word on that.

Or we were supporting sin.

Interesting choice of words there. Care to elaborate?

Did that, I even read a whole bunch of apologetic and even read the Bible through a few times cover to cover. I learned a bunch of stuff that I never heard in sermons. Which became to sources of my questions, which caused the said controversy. Pastors tend to not want to talk about genocide, slaves, or incest when they preach against such things, yet they are in the bible and major parts of the very roots of the religion.

Which was it that caused your questions, was it the sermons or was it the books on apologetics?

Sorry my thread isn't about politics, I'm not going to discuss it.

Again, I am responding to what you brought up previously in this post, and in other posts in the thread.

Actually John spoke of Revelations and the book wasn't even originally in the first Bible printings because it was considered the ramblings of a mad man. Later the Catholic and Protestant churches added revelations to the bible.

I surmise that you are using hyperbole here Surely, John was not a mad man, he was an Apostle. In all of my studies on the history and transmission of canon did I ever come to anything that said anything like that about any other Apostle.

 

[P31Woman]

I was a Christian for many years and fully believed in the Bible. I started
learning and taking interest in other religions and history.

1 John 2:12-14 Three Stages of Spiritural Growth: 1st Stage

What is it that a spiritual child knows? The spiritual child knows God, the basic knowledge. The distinguishing act of a babe in Christ is to acknowledge God as Father, Christ as Lord. They express their delight in the attachment. They express their delight in the new life, in the joy of dependence. As in Romans 8:15 and Galatians 4:6, the spiritual babe says, "Abba, Father," that's "Daddy." There is a...there is a newness of life, there is a wondrous familiarity, personal relationship with God. Little children are more regulated by their affections than their knowledge, isn't that true? They're more affected by their emotions, their feelings than by information.

. There is affection for God. There is a delight in their spiritual life, delight in their spiritual experiences. There is a joy that their sins are forgiven. There is a...there is almost an exhilaration in the...in the expression of the Spirit of God that has awakened them to the realities of salvation blessing. That's where it all starts. It's not about information. It's not about theology. It's about relationship.

Spiritual babies are attached to the relationship more than to doctrine. That's why in 1 Corinthians chapter 3, which I read a little earlier to you, the apostle Paul says, "Look, here's how I know you are babies because one says I'm of Paul, another says I'm of Apollos," spiritual babies tend to attach to their heroes. They're more drawn, as I said, by their affections than by information. They are typical babies.

Ephesians 4:13 and 14 says another thing about spiritual babies that's serious. It says this, "Be no longer children...verse 14, Ephesians 4...tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine by the trickery of men, by craftiness and deceitful scheming." Now there's another thing about children. They are affectionate and they are drawn to relationships but they have no discernment.

Even as they get a little older, if you gave them a choice between spinach and ice cream. Hands down, ice cream all day long. They don't have any discernment. They'll do themselves severe harm and damage. And they will be easily led astray. Think about all these sad little children who are led astray by these terrible pedophiles and then brought into this horrible situation where their lives are taken and who knows what atrocities are performed because it is the nature of a child to be easily deceived and easily led astray.

We applaud their unconditional love. We applaud the fact that they are attracted to people and relationships. We applaud the fact that they look at the world through rose-colored glasses and they have a certain happiness and joy that goes along with ignorance and lack of experience. But we decry the vulnerability of that, don't we? They lack wisdom. They lack discernment. They live in danger being led seriously astray.

Cults prey on spiritual babes. False teachers make careers out of spiritual babes. You look at these massive crowds that are draw by false teachers and you just know it's a combination of the spiritual immature and the unconverted.

http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/62-14

 

[jasoncran]

Jeff, cough, that liking to jewry also hit this jew.how many deep theological discussions on the torah have we had. like you im also finding the torah deep.

 

[Milk-Drops]

BTW, Why did you reject Jesus Christ?

After a long time of studying and opening up my horizons it not longer made sense to me to be a Christian. My thoughts on Jesus was more that he could have been a historical figure and possibly exaggerated in the Gospels. That is how I felt about Christianity after a long time. Its that simple. I did have a "relationship", but once my community went away the reinforcements also fell and that left me to seek things on my own.

 

[Grazer]

After a long time of studying and opening up my horizons it not longer made sense to me to be a Christian. My thoughts on Jesus was more that he could have been a historical figure and possibly exaggerated in the Gospels. That is how I felt about Christianity after a long time. Its that simple. I did have a "relationship", but once my community went away the reinforcements also fell and that left me to seek things on my own.

I can relate to this. There a couple of people extremely helpful and instrumental in me coming to Christ and they all moved away for various reasons. I saw my support network collapse and felt so alone. I've built up another one but learned to rely on God for things more and stand on my own 2 feet. I'm not saying this will definitely happen to you or say that is why it happened, just wanted to say that you're not alone

 

[Milk-Drops]

I can relate to this. There a couple of people extremely helpful and instrumental in me coming to Christ and they all moved away for various reasons. I saw my support network collapse and felt so alone. I've built up another one but learned to rely on God for things more and stand on my own 2 feet. I'm not saying this will definitely happen to you or say that is why it happened, just wanted to say that you're not alone

Thank you. I don't think I could ever be a conventional Christian. There are things I just can't believe anymore. Ideas on Homosexuality, evolution/cosmology/chemistry, and specific things that I think made sense when Jesus was stating what he did or things in the Old Testament, but now don't make sense in a modern society with more understanding. My stance now is that if there is something, I'll figure it out. I was a very spiteful Atheist when I first left the church due to some things that burned me when I was leaving. Now I have looked past most of that and have reformed some bonds with past Christian friends. I just needed time to figure things out on my own first. I see Jesus now as more of the idea of fighting against the easy way out and respect the "spirit" of it as more of just figuring out what works the best in life and brings the most happiness to those I relate to. There are things in the Gospel changed me, but I see them more as a starting point for me than an end point. I think that is what hammpered me the most Dogma, stagnation, and unanswered questions.

 

[Grazer]

Thank you. I don't think I could ever be a conventional Christian. There are things I just can't believe anymore. Ideas on Homosexuality, evolution/cosmology/chemistry, and specific things that I think made sense when Jesus was stating what he did or things in the Old Testament, but now don't make sense in a modern society with more understanding. My stance now is that if there is something, I'll figure it out. I was a very spiteful Atheist when I first left the church due to some things that burned me when I was leaving. Now I have looked past most of that and have reformed some bonds with past Christian friends. I just needed time to figure things out on my own first. I see Jesus now as more of the idea of fighting against the easy way out and respect the "spirit" of it as more of just figuring out what works the best in life and brings the most happiness to those I relate to. There are things in the Gospel changed me, but I see them more as a starting point for me than an end point. I think that is what hammpered me the most Dogma, stagnation, and unanswered questions.

Completely agree with the bit in bold, I think a lot of people are in that situation and its something I'm learning to avoid and help others avoid. Figuring things out on your own is great, especially when you have a starting point. Keep doing what you're doing, if its working for you then that matters

 

[Mike S]

Completely agree with the bit in bold, I think a lot of people are in that situation and its something I'm learning to avoid and help others avoid. Figuring things out on your own is great, especially when you have a starting point. Keep doing what you're doing, if its working for you then that matters

Having reason be a part of our Christian journy is important, but, ultimately, Christianity is not just another nice sounding set of ethics. The power of Christ is in God's saving Grace, not in His patting little children on the head and being kind to the homeless.

 

[Grazer]

Having reason be a part of our Christian journy is important, but, ultimately, Christianity is not just another nice sounding set of ethics. The power of Christ is in God's saving Grace, not in His patting little children on the head and being kind to the homeless.

I agree but we all have to start somewhere. Some people can take big leaps others not so much and God uses all of us

 

[P31Woman]

I agree but we all have to start somewhere. Some people can take big leaps others not so much and God uses all of us

Meat said he started with a relationship with Jesus Christ and now has doubts that Jesus was even an historical figure. From a Chrisitan point of view this is not somoene who is on the right path.

Why anyone who claims to be a follower of Jesus Christ come on a Christian forum and encourage someone to remain on a path that is leading them away from the Truth of Jesus Christ beyond belief.

 

[P31Woman]

Thank you. I don't think I could ever be a conventional Christian. There are things I just can't believe anymore. Ideas on Homosexuality, evolution/cosmology/chemistry, and specific things that I think made sense when Jesus was stating what he did or things in the Old Testament, but now don't make sense in a modern society with more understanding. My stance now is that if there is something, I'll figure it out. I was a very spiteful Atheist when I first left the church due to some things that burned me when I was leaving. Now I have looked past most of that and have reformed some bonds with past Christian friends. I just needed time to figure things out on my own first. I see Jesus now as more of the idea of fighting against the easy way out and respect the "spirit" of it as more of just figuring out what works the best in life and brings the most happiness to those I relate to. There are things in the Gospel changed me, but I see them more as a starting point for me than an end point. I think that is what hammpered me the most Dogma, stagnation, and unanswered questions.

I don't buy your excuses for rejecting Jesus Christ as both your Lord and Savior.

 

[Mike S]

I agree but we all have to start somewhere. Some people can take big leaps others not so much and God uses all of us

You and I agree on this, we've discussed it before, but we need to be certain people are serious about understanding the truth, rather than using Christ's message as a menu of things to accept or reject in making our faith fit the lifestyle we want. My concern, Grazer, is that far too often people say "I have to figure out this Christianity thing for myself" when they really mean "I don't believe that nonsense about Christ being divine, he could be a really good teacher."

 

[stovebolts]

Meatball Sub,

When I read your posts, it seems to me that your making excuses to reject Christianity. Now, maybe it's because some people have mistreated you and maybe it's because some people have misrepresented Christ. Regardless, if you look at the work of Christ, it's more about transformation and relationship than it is about dogma and fine sounding arguments.

You are in part shaped by our culture and our culture goes against some core issues. Homosexuality is regarded as sin and this is an issue you seem to struggle with and when you hear somebody speak against Homosexuality, you take up your cause and then wonder why people respond to you the way they do. I know you and I have had tit for tat in this area when you wanted to drive your Gay agenda and I didn't want to engage. Listen, where I work we have a lot of gays and lesbians. Not only that, but I had to go see Scott the other day but when I got to Scott's desk, Sarah was on the nameplate. He was in the process of having his name legally changed from Scott to Sarah. I tell you this because although I believe the Bible preaches against homosexuality, it does not give me a licence to disrespect another human being because of their sexual preference.

As far as Science, your not alone on that one. I was teaching the college class at Church some time ago and asked the class how old the earth was and most says millions or billions of years old. YEC is not allowed to be taught in the public schools and if they ask pointed questions, they are told that Creation is a religious topic and therefore cannot be discussed. Point, my son asked the teacher this. If the earth is millions of years old, how come the ocean isn't more salty. It is a fair question, but he was told he can't ask those kinds of questions because they are religious in nature when my son said nothing about religion.

I bring these up to you to simply say that we are all following someone. Your either following what is being taught in our culture or your being taught by someone else. Either way, everyone is following somebody and we all put our trust in somebody. You say your trying to figure this all out, but what your really doing is deciding who you believe, and who you want to follow.

You said that you were a very angry Athiest against the church. I can believe that because I see it even when you talk gently because you usually have an edge when you present yourself to Christians and honestly that's a shame. You know, in John 6 Jesus said that hew as the bread of life and that whoever ate his flesh and drank his blood would have eternal life. For those who came to him seeking a free meal or a king to lead them into battle against the Romans, they couldn't understand what Jesus was saying so they left. I am not saying that I understand every part of scripture, but both you and Grazer misunderstand a lot in scripture and buck at what you don't understand.

I would just hope that you can take a step back and revisit your issues with a new set of eyes. As Christians we are told that we will work out our salvation with fear and trembling and just like Jacob, many of us will wrestle God. All that's normal and natural, but as Christians we never truly loose our faith. So, if your struggling with some Christian issues dont' feel alone. But more importantly have you lost that little spark of faith you claim you once had? If so, then God can work through you as I believe he continues to do.

Grace and Peace.