....and the truth will set you free.

[gordon777]

If I did not answer according to thread, then the thread also does not discuss as it should, which is simply what John 8 says, the men of Israel being of their father the devil are not of God. ( nothing shows anyone hearing, believed in Jesus in John 8, whatsoever.)

 

[gordon777]

Have a nice day.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

They being blinded not seeing, did not believe. ( they fell by unbelief)

That does not at all describe David, Samuel, Jeremiah, Moses, Elijah, Elisha, Micah and a host of others.

Isaiah 29:10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

So do you think this describes Jeremiah and Moses? What about David and Samuel? Are there some in Israel for whom this is not correct?

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Same question but now let us ask if this describes Peter? Jesus, himself, said the Father had shown him that Jesus was the Christ. So how does this work? Were the eyes blinded and hearts hardened of John and James as well as the rest of the disciples? Do you allow for exceptions.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Hebrews 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Ah, but did any ever enter? You seem to be saying that these verses describe all of Israel all the time. This, btw, is really off from the OP. Do you think you can return to it?

Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

What kind of labor do we need to do?

We have to believe in the light, to be the children of light. ( to have light/sight)

I assume there is no verse for this statement or you would have given me one. It think new age thinkers would agree with you. It sounds nice and is so vague it requires doing nothing different than before.

John 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Since this is spoken to the disciples who had Jesus with them, the light of the world, it is likely this was just for them. They, after all, had the light at that point in time but there would not continue very long. And indeed, that very verse said he, the light, hid himself from them....no light.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If I did not answer according to thread, then the thread also does not discuss as it should, which is simply what John 8 says, the men of Israel being of their father the devil are not of God. ( nothing shows anyone hearing, believed in Jesus in John 8, whatsoever.)

So it is my fault that you cannot address the points I make? Really? Or do you mean what I wrote is different than what you ever heard on these passages and so you classify it and "not discuss as it should" like there are "right" and "wrong" ways to present a view of scripture.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Have a nice day.

You as well. It is snowing large chicken feather flakes and it is APRIL!!.....a winter wonderland...in Spring! :/

 

[Hidden In Him]

John tells us that Jesus will make us free.
Free from what?
Or to what?


John 8:31-44

31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
33They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35“The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36“So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
37“I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
38“I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”
39They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham.
40“But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.
41“You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.”
42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
43“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Sister, I remember you having a thread with a similar title, and thought I would direct you to this one.

Some answers came to me in this discussion with Dorothy Mae this morning (see Post #14 and #17).

Tell me what you think.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Sister, I remember you having a thread with a similar title, and thought I would direct you to this one.

Some answers came to me in this discussion with Dorothy Mae this morning (see Post #14 and #17).

Tell me what you think.

Was that my thread? I think wondering started that thread. But yes it is similar. I will check out your posts listed above.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Was that my thread? I think @wondering started that thread.

Yes. Too many participants there and too far gone, so I thought I would redirect her to here rather than copy and paste.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes. Too many participants there and too far gone, so I thought I would redirect her to here rather than copy and paste.

OK I read the many scriptures. They do not say what one is free from. It is actually hard to describe as it goes very deep. Just being free from sin since we are not sinless is not the only point. I really think free from fear of man and fear of information is a along freedom that comes from KNOWING the truth. It is hard to explain. When one is faced, for example, with a host of people whose view is NOT the TRUTH, one is not afraid of them. One need not insult them. One simply knows the truth and sees through the lies. Those who believe that which is not true DO NOT SEE what they do and they do not understand the truth. That is a part of it.

 

[gordon777]

Only people who are lovers of their own elves are servants to sin:


2 Timothy 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Only people who are lovers of their own elves are servants to sin:


2 Timothy 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

When one has a theology in the mind that is totally divorced from real people, anything is possible to believe.

 

[gordon777]

When one has a theology in the mind that is totally divorced from real people, anything is possible to believe.

Yes it is possible to believe we were free from righteousness when we serve ( commit) sin, and when freed ( from that service) we serve God in righteousness and true holiness, all the days of our life. ( this is the oath and promise of God to Abraham.)




Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.


Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.



Luke 1:73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

 

[Hidden In Him]

It is actually hard to describe as it goes very deep. Just being free from sin since we are not sinless is not the only point. I really think free from fear of man and fear of information is a along freedom that comes from KNOWING the truth. It is hard to explain. When one is faced, for example, with a host of people whose view is NOT the TRUTH, one is not afraid of them. One need not insult them. One simply knows the truth and sees through the lies. Those who believe that which is not true DO NOT SEE what they do and they do not understand the truth. That is a part of it.

Deliverance from the fear of man would be yet another thing the teachings of Jesus would free one from (Matthew 10:28).

As for other specific things, just the list from the Sermon on the Mount would be pretty extensive.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Deliverance from the fear of man would be yet another thing the teachings of Jesus would free one from (Matthew 10:28).

As for other specific things, just the list from the Sermon on the Mount would be pretty extensive.

I don’t one gets delivered from the fear of man. I think one must choose the fear of the Lord instead. It’s somewhat like we don’t get delivered from bad character or disobedience. These things are not passively given to us.

 

[Tenchi]

John 8:31-37 (NASB)
31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35 "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.


Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, the Life, no one comes to the Father but by me." (John 14:6) It's in the light of this statement that I consider what he said in the verse below:

36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

What is the truth? Well, Jesus said he is himself the Truth. As our Creator and God, all truth ultimately emanates from him. He is, in fact, necessarily the Ground of All Reality.

Acts 17:28 (NASB)
28 for in Him we live and move and exist...

John 1:1-4 (NASB)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

Colossians 1:15-17 (NASB)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

In light of these passages, it seems evident to me that Jesus must be the Truth in a very literal sense, the Ultimate Source of all that is real and true.

So let us look at this. In the first phrase, we see the people he is talking to, that is, his audience. Is he talking to unbelievers? No, he is specially talking ONLY TO THOSE who already believed in him. He is telling believers this.

But, didn't Jesus go on in the rest of the chapter to have a discussion with his interlocutors that revealed that they didn't, in fact, truly believe in who he really was?

John 8:41-44 (NASB)
41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God."
42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

I don't see how these things Jesus says about those to whom he was talking from verse 31 onward could be true of those who had genuinely believed in Christ as the Messiah, the Son of God...

John 8:45-55 (NASB)
45 "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
46 "Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."
48 The Jews answered and said to Him, "Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?"
49 Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me.
50 "But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges.
51 "Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death."
52 The Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, 'If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.'
53 "Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?"
54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God';
55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word.

In light of Christ's own statements here, I don't understand why you think he was speaking to true believers. To those who were described in verse 31 as having believed in him, Jesus said they were "of the devil," "not of God," "dishonored him," "did not actually believe him," and were liars. What have I missed, that I should think such people were genuine believers?

Now the position I had believed was that this "truth" is the gospel. But that cannot be his meaning because he is talking to those who already believe. So what is this truth?

Pilate asked the same question while the Truth stood right in front of him: Jesus. See above.

Yes to some degree but none of can truthfully say that we no longer sin at all.

No, no one can make this claim truthfully. But it IS possible to sin a whole lot less than we often think is possible.

Jesus can set us free from the power sin has over our choices.

Not "can," Dorothy Mae, but has. Romans 6, right?

That is actually what the gospel is, God forgives us and set us free from the power of sin if we repent and believe.

Sort of. These are actually the effects of our salvation, which is in a Person: Jesus Christ. In him who is our Salvation we find freedom from sin. Again, this is what Romans 6 explains to us, right?

So this freedom he speaks of comes from know this truth. Not the truth about Jesus as every true disciple knows that at the start.

I wish this were actually true, Dorothy Mae! The Gospel is often presented today in such a way as to greatly obscure Christ. He is only their Savior from the penalty of their sin, not their Liberator into a life of freedom from the power of sin. And it shows.

You come to know the truth about God, his ways, man, his ways, and why things are they way they are and what can be done about it and what cannot be done about it. And there is a confidence and freedom that comes with that understanding.

I think the Truth properly understood does as you say, bringing us, not merely into a fuller apprehension of the facts of things spiritually, but into deeper fellowship with God and Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:9 (NASB)
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Corinthians 13:14 (NASB)
14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

1 John 1:3 (NASB)
3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

 

[gordon777]

Apostle Paul brought before the council, tells them earnestly how he had lived in all good conscience before God until that day.

Paul is then brought before Governor Felix, and confesses before them, that, that which they call heresy, He so worships the God of his fathers, believing all things written in the law and the prophets, having hope towards God, of a resurrection of the dead, just and unjust. This is how Apostle Paul confesses how he exercises himself, to always have a conscience void of offence toward God and toward man. (More verses for never giving offence, and when some give offences to avoid those people. 1 Corinthians 10:32. 2 Corinthians 6:3. James 3:2. Philippians 1:10. Romans 16:17.)

The end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, which is also of a good conscience, sincere faith, which some swerve aside to vanity.

We are to hold the faith and a good conscience, not like some who have put away concerning faith and made shipwreck. ( they are delivered unto satan to learn to not blaspheme.)

We are to draw near to God, with a true heart in full assurance of faith, and our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The Apostles had a good conscience in all things, willing to live honestly.

We are beseeched by the workers with Him, to not receive the grace of God in vain. God hears us and accepts us in the day of salvation and succours us, we are to behold as now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

The Apostles giving no offence in anything, that the ministry be not blamed. But in all things approving themselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses.

Whatever we do it is to, DO ALL TO THE GLORY OF GOD.. ( committing sin is not giving glory to God)

Giving no offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God, even as Apostle Paul pleased ALL MEN IN ALL THINGS, not seeking his own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

What saves us is the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. ( To assure our hearts before God and our heart to not condemn us. 1 John 3:18-21.)




Acts 23:1 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

1 Timothy 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Hebrews 13:18 Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.

2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

2 Corinthians 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,

1 Corinthians 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:





No scripture can be taught against the practical examples of the Apostles, nor against the purpose of that good conscience /belief in the rising of Christ from the dead, and also of non causing of offence to anyone. ( in all things giving glory to God.)

Those who do commit sins, ( those of this world/and any man that is called a brother.) fornicators, covetous, railer, drunkards, are to be judged, and pout away from ourselves those wicked persons.





1 Corinthians 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

They being blinded not seeing, did not believe. ( they fell by unbelief)



Isaiah 29:10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.



Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Hebrews 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.



Blindness/not seeing, is not believing.

We have to believe in the light, to be the children of light. ( to have light/sight)


John 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Sometimes it seems that for some, merely quoting verses IS walking in the light so they quote tons of them.

 

[WarrenSawy]

Thank for sharing.