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Bible Study And yet another thread on baptism...

Why did Jesus make John the Baptist baptize Him? Did He need to be saved?

There are several reasons why it was fitting for John to baptize Jesus at the beginning of His public ministry. Jesus was about to embark on His great work, and it was appropriate that He be recognized publicly by His forerunner. John was the “voice crying in the wilderness†prophesied by Isaiah, calling people to repentance in preparation for their Messiah (Isaiah 40:3). By baptizing Him, John was declaring to all that here was the One they had been waiting for, the Son of God, the One he had predicted would baptize “with the Holy Spirit and fire†(Matthew 3:11).

Jesus’ baptism also showed that He identified with sinners. His baptism symbolized the sinners’ baptism into the righteousness of Christ, dying with Him and rising free from sin and able to walk in the newness of life. His perfect righteousness would fulfill all the requirements of the Law for sinners who could never hope to do so on their own. When John hesitated to baptize the sinless Son of God, Jesus replied that it was proper to “fulfill all righteousness†(Matthew 3:15). By this He alluded to the righteousness that He provides to all who come to Him to exchange their sin for His righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21).
 
In catechism class, our pastor asked the same question...why was Jesus baptized for the remission of sins.

My daughter had an answer...

He took on the sins of the world.

When one looks at it this way...the baptism of Christ is not symbollic of "the sinners’ baptism into the righteousness of Christ", but again a washing away of sins, only in the case of Christ, not His sins, but the sins that He would take on.

Again, in the texts that you're sharing...I don't see baptism as being symbolic but as a very vital work of God where He washes us of our sin and imparts Christ's righteousness to us.

(Keep in mind, I view all the "work" of baptism being on God's side...not ours.)
 
(Keep in mind, I view all the "work" of baptism being on God's side...not ours.)
Ok, so that explains a lot.

So, Christ would not have gone to Heaven unless He had been baptized?


Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for (because of) the remission of sins,



They can be baptized because their sins have already been remitted. They are already saved.



For can be used as for as in order to get or for as in because of.



They are to get baptized because their sins have been remitted.


It is only a picture, a showing forth of the death and the burial and the resurrection of Christ.



If you have been trusting in baptism to save you, I hope that you now see the error of that.



Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.



You cannot get to heaven thru baptism. You can only go thru Jesus.


Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 
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Why did Jesus make John the Baptist baptize Him? Did He need to be saved?

There are several reasons why it was fitting for John to baptize Jesus at the beginning of His public ministry. Jesus was about to embark on His great work, and it was appropriate that He be recognized publicly by His forerunner. John was the “voice crying in the wilderness†prophesied by Isaiah, calling people to repentance in preparation for their Messiah (Isaiah 40:3). By baptizing Him, John was declaring to all that here was the One they had been waiting for, the Son of God, the One he had predicted would baptize “with the Holy Spirit and fire†(Matthew 3:11).

Jesus’ baptism also showed that He identified with sinners. His baptism symbolized the sinners’ baptism into the righteousness of Christ, dying with Him and rising free from sin and able to walk in the newness of life. His perfect righteousness would fulfill all the requirements of the Law for sinners who could never hope to do so on their own. When John hesitated to baptize the sinless Son of God, Jesus replied that it was proper to “fulfill all righteousness†(Matthew 3:15). By this He alluded to the righteousness that He provides to all who come to Him to exchange their sin for His righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Good point. I see it as maybe that you are saying(?) that God annoited Christ in about 27 AD for a starting point to Dan.'s vision of the midst of the weeks crucifion (7 years) to the start of Paul taking the Gospel to the Gentils? 34AD.

It surely would be a required witness!:thumbsup

And Handy would love that, huh?;)

--Elijah
 
(Keep in mind, I view all the "work" of baptism being on God's side...not ours.)
Ok, so that explains a lot.

So, Christ would not have gone to Heaven unless He had been baptized?

Many people believe and are taught that baptism is a Sacrament – that is a means of God’s grace, a channel through which our salvation comes.



But what does the Bible say?
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.



What is the channel of god’s saving grace? By grace are ye saved through Faith. What are we not saved by? Works.



Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.



Not thru baptism.


Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,







According to the Bible, the symbolism of baptism declares that three things happen to believers who are baptized: (1) they die with Christ to their old self; (2) they rise with Christ to become a new creature; and (3) they are incorporated in their new life with a living community which looks for the coming of the Lord (Romans 6:1-11). Contrary to what some denominations teach, it seems obvious that a Christian's baptism must necessarily require a responsible decision to accept Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, and therefore, must be delayed until an age of reason or discretion (knowing right from wrong within God's perspective).

In short, Jesus Christ commands baptism for His followers. Although the act of baptism does not cause eternal salvation, it seems that any believer who refuses baptism should truly examine his or her conversion.

"Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I will be with you always, to the very end of the age'" (Matthew 28:18-20).







The thief on the cross next to Jesus didn't have time to be baptized before he died, but he had an opportunity to believe in Jesus and put his trust in Him, and Jesus responded by saying, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43).

True faith in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross for our sins is sufficient for salvation. Christ has already done everything. By definition, His grace doesn't require any additional "works" by us. That being said, Jesus Christ commands us to be baptized (Matthew 28:18-20), and therefore, all believers should be baptized. Immediately following Christ's command, the Book of Acts describes the practice of administering baptism to almost every group or individual who believed in the preaching of the Gospel by the apostles (Acts 2:37-41; 8:5-13; 8:35-39; 9:10-18; 10:34-48; 16:13-15; 16:30-33; 18:8; and 19:1-6).


 
FF,

So, the work of baptism isn't done by the Spirit?

The washing, cleansing and renewing isn't done by God?

I know of many texts...many that point that baptism is a means by which God imparts His grace...not a "work" we do.

I think that is where so many get hung up...they view baptism as some kind of "work" of man...when it isn't...all the "work" of baptism is God's work...not man's. You seem to think this yourself when you quote Titus 3:5 in the light that baptism is a work we do...when the verse seems clear to me to be speaking of what the Holy Spirit does...

We could go 'round and 'round here...that's why I'd rather look at the supporting texts. ;) Because, instead of going round and round, if we all...(on opposing sides of this issue) set aside our preconcived notions and look at what the texts actually say that baptism is...what baptism actually is...then we could go a long way towards becoming more unified on the subject.

Is baptism simply someone going down and getting plunged...or is it something more?
 
According to the Bible, the symbolism of baptism declares that three things happen to believers who are baptized: (1) they die with Christ to their old self; (2) they rise with Christ to become a new creature; and (3) they are incorporated in their new life with a living community which looks for the coming of the Lord (Romans 6:1-11). Contrary to what some denominations teach, it seems obvious that a Christian's baptism must necessarily require a responsible decision to accept Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, and therefore, must be delayed until an age of reason or discretion (knowing right from wrong within God's perspective).

According to the Bible...let's look at all the texts referred to here.

Oh...and, I'd love to make a rule for this discussion if I may be so bold

NO DISCUSSION THE THIEF ON THE CROSS. His story, while a wonderful example of God's grace at any moment...has nothing to do with a discussion on what baptism is.

I hope that I'm not sounding snippy...if I am, it's most likely because I'm really supposed to be doing something else at the moment...not posting here. I truly do appreciate this discussion and an attempt at examining what baptism is.
 
All of the things you wish to abolish from the discussion are all part of it, and that is why we have the issue at hand. When God's Word is 'cherry picked' and not taken in whole. this is where we go down the broad path.

We must examine the bible as a whole, and if that is not possible, then I will leave you to your thread. My church does not place such limitations on us, sorry.
 
No, it's not "cherry picking" it really isn't...

Because this isn't a discussion on whether or not baptism saves...when the theif on the cross does indeed become an important part of the topic.

This discussion is more about what baptism actually is...whether it is simply "symbolic"...an "outward profession"...or whether it is more, whether it is a work of the Spirit and a means of God's grace.

If it helps...I'm not of the opinion that baptism saves...I'm truly not. I do believe it is necessary in the life of the believer, but not that it imparts eternal life on all who get wet.
 
Pending any further sharing, I'm going to conclude that I have all there is that goes to show that baptism is an "outward profession".

If anyone has any further texts that strengthen and support the idea...by all means share.

So far, the scriptures that I have to examine are:

Romans 6:1-11

Matthew 28:18-20 (although this text only states we are to go and baptize...it really doesn't say what Baptism is.)

Acts 2:37-41; 8:5-13; 8:35-39; 9:10-18; 10:34-48; 16:13-15; 16:30-33; 18:8; and 19:1-6

Matthew 3 (baptism of Jesus)

All the information on the Mikvah...

Vic...I don't know if I commented before about your point of it's being more conceptual than contextual...point received and most certainly being examined.

FrustratedForumer, I do believe I've frustrated you and I do apologize...again, this thread really isn't intended to be a thread on whether or not baptism saves, but rather what baptism actually is...and as Vic pointed out...the fact that the "outward profession" is more of a conceptual explanation rather than an contextual one would indeed take into consideration that baptism does not in itself save, but shows the concept of what salvation is. And, that is the difference that I'm wanting to study.

Thanks for all who have shared verses and texts! :thumbsup
 
Below is my attempt at a (somewhat) thorough response. Please forgive the length.

I guess I should explain what I'm trying to get at here...I would like to really examine baptism and what it actually is...

So, what I'd really like to see is indeed a list of verses...preferably the whole text, not just the reference...BUT, only those that support the idea that baptism is an "outward profession".

Why not the ones that seem to support the idea that baptism is far more than an "outward profession", but a means by which God imparts His saving grace? Because, I already a lot of source data on that interpretation.

Hi Handy,

I was actually going to give the same response that I am now to your question simply from your OP, but I noticed that in the above quotation you additionally elaborate on an important point to consider that I was going to address (as to what baptism is).

What I was going to say from the outset is that that we need to actually distinguish between what baptism is and what baptism does/what it is for. That further can be compounded in that different kinds of baptisms are refered to in the New Testament. What water baptism, in specific, is is actually much broader in definition than it's strictly Christian (from Acts on) usage.

The issue of relating "baptism" to an outward profession is specifically dealing with (physical) water baptism, so I will start with that. The word for baptism in and of itself means dipping or immersing something - which also leads to the other symbolic take-offs from the literal word-picture as applied spiritually. But taking its literal and basic meaning, it means to dip something (and not always in water), like when Jesus dipped the bread in the bowl at the Last Supper. As far as the act of water baptism is concerned we can perhaps see a somewhat related action of immersing in the OT when Namaan the Syrian is told to dip in the Jordan river 7 times (2 Kings 5:14).

The act in and of itself was not effectual for Namaan but rather that it was obedience to the instructions, while having faith, that produced the promised result (physical healing in his case). The same can also be said for the temporal sacrifices and the water purifications for the priests in the Levitical law. Pagan nations did the same, but it was God's gracious ordinances for Israel which gave them efficaciousness (effectiveness).

Similarly we see in Acts 19 those who had obediently been baptised (immersed/dipped) in water by John but further were again water baptised until they had received a far more important baptism (that of the Baptism of the Spirit - I will get to that in a moment), and such was a spiritual baptism. So we see that essentially the action in itself can serve a temporal purpose yet have real effects based on its established purpose at the time. Having thus dealt with the less normative cases of water baptism then, how can we view the more regular references to water baptism all throughout Acts and also in the Gospels (Jesus' disciples also baptized people during Jesus' ministry - John 4:1-2)? First we can additionally see that the order of, or supposed cause & effect relationship, of water baptism and salvation can itself be switched up as with Cornelius and the Gentiles being water baptized after the Spirit fell on them.

The effect or goal of Christian water baptism (it's ultimate purpose) is to lead one by obedience to outwardly show one's identity with/in Christ (which can be during or after one's initial profession of faith in Christ). Christian water baptism is an agreement by way of action to show that identification with Christ. That is my best attempt at a broad definition. I say "Christian water baptism" though to distinguish its purpose from other water immersions such as Namaan's or John the Baptist's (which however pointed to the Christian baptism by faith in Jesus), because remember in the end it's just a dunk in water - it does not convey spiritual change in and of itself (which is why I frame it in terms rather of outward "showing").

Outwardly water as a medium provides adequate symbolism through immersion, and can even indeed wash the filth off your body (but see 1 Peter 3:21), but throwing someone into a river does not make anyone truly identify with Christ. To actually identify however (not simply outwardly show that identification) with Christ must mean to share a similar nature and character with Christ (being partakers of the divine nature) - which is impossible by human means - and is only accomplished by inward spiritual change, rebirth, and salvation. Regeneration, being born of water (symbolic) and Spirit (John 3:5) as spiritually wrought, is the way that we are given this new nature and the means by which we identify with Christ. However we cannot establish any firm doctrine that spiritual regeneration is dependent on the outward performance of water baptism.

This then leaves us with the question of what the physical baptism itself is (as you asked). That leaves the actual immersion in water as a symbolic action acting as witness to your decision to have faith in Christ, your faith leading to regeneration as the means of identifying inwardly and spiritually with Christ. Water baptism is tied with profession because one is called to repent unto salvation (which is inwardly efficacious) and then be water baptized (which not only symbolizes but demonstrates your agreement with the action to become Christ's). Peter says in Acts 2:38, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." And Paul tells us whereby we may truly be saved and justified (which is the object and goal of repentance), "Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved" (Romans 10:9-10). The profession from genuine faith leads to your salvation, but the water in that regard is supplementary and can come after a true verbal confession, as accompanied by faith, in Christ for salvation. So I hope that answers your question about what water baptism is in and of itself (its purpose to show one's identity/relation/belonging to Christ).

Then there are the other baptisms which do not refer to water baptism, such as the Baptism of the Spirit at Pentecost and also the universal Spirit Baptism for all believers to enter the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13), which may or may not be the same - depending on who you ask. Since these baptisms, regardless of whether they are identical or not, are not physical baptisms but rather spiritual baptisms (meaning to come under the influence of - such as the mention of Israel being baptized into Moses - 1 Corinthians 10:2) they do not have the same external component that water baptism has. Therefore, I point that out to narrow down the range in which your question in the OP is applicable: to water baptism. It is water baptism which provides the viable identification with an "outward profession" because of the verbal identifying with Christ and the repentance required to be water baptized. Though I would certainly say that water baptism before/without repentance of saving belief would be quite useless (that nice dunk in the water I mentioned - and in such a case no amount of profession to identify with Christ would have any meaning). Such is the truth about any symbol without a corresponding reality.

God Bless,
~Josh
 
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To clarify Handy, if it could be said and shown in Scripture that water baptism was the cause and means by which we are saved I would modify my definition of baptism to say:

The effect of Christian water baptism is to identify with Christ (as the means of identifying).

However, common sense and other examples of water immersion in Scripture informs us that physical actions like that do not cause such spiritual consequences in and of themselves. I rather showed that the means of the identifying, which baptism outwardly demonstrates, is the reality of regeneration (being born again). Regeneration identifies us with Christ, and gives us His nature, not water baptism. Plus the physical action of dipping in the water must obviously serve a purpose as a medium external to the body, and I argue that it is for demonstration purposes - supplementalry to confessing Jesus as Lord when one repents. That is my take any way. Take it for what it's worth.

God Bless,
~Josh
 
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I know that baptism threads are usually put in Apologetics and Theology...but I'm posting here because I truly don't want this to become yet another never-ending debate...it's a specific question to a specific view on baptism. All I'm asking for is for those who hold to this particular view to provide some Scriptures to explain why they believe it...that's all. :nod

Some quotes:

Where is the scripture basis for the view that baptism is an "outward profession".

I see it all the time...and have yet to see some solid scripture support on this...mainly because every time the question gets raised it dwindles into another "does baptism save"....

NOT THE POINT OF THIS THREAD!!!!

Actually, for anyone who doesn't believe that baptism is an outward profession of an inner change...no reason to even bother with the thread.

But...for those who do believe this...Scriptures please!!!!

Baptism simply means 'immerse and wash'. Baptism by immersion in water will never save a man because it is just symbolic.

True baptism is death with Him and we rise with Him together through His Spirit.

Baptism is a work of God not man. True baptism will save but symbolic baptism will not save.

(Luke 3:16) John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and [having] a High Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water (Heb 10:19-22).

Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do [them.] (Ezek 36:25-27)
 
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