Angels and Demons......

[RND]

and the deception thereof.

[youtube:3us16fre]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIhHuwq_eTo&feature=player_profilepage[/youtube:3us16fre]

 

[Orion]

Some thoughts I had on this video:

~ A "circle" is not a "sphere". . . and a "tent" can only sit upon a flat surface, giving more evidence of the earth being flat. The Bible also mentions the "four corners of the earth". A circle has no corners.

~ To say "hangs the earth on nothing" is an odd statement. The earth is more floating in a vacuum, held in orbit by opposite forces.

~ Hebrews 11:3 is quite a stretch.

~How does the verse about blood give any new information about how it works in the body and how the function of the red and white cells and such affect health?

~Stars and sand are numerous, yes, but just stating that fact isn't necessarily "something science didn't know".

~It didn't take religion to know that rain falls from clouds. The vapor thing is interesting, . . . but Job also talks about how hail is stored in heavenly storehouses for days of battle.

Shouldn't this be in the science portion of this site, though? Regardless, I didn't really care for Angels and Demons much. . . . but I love the music.

 

[RND]

Sounds to me like you are simply trying to minimize the Word of God and His claim to have created all things.

Some thoughts I had on this video:

~ A "circle" is not a "sphere". . . and a "tent" can only sit upon a flat surface, giving more evidence of the earth being flat. The Bible also mentions the "four corners of the earth". A circle has no corners.

The "four corners" of the earth is in reference to a compass and the aspect of North, South, East and West. Those are the "four corners" of the earth.

As for your other points I simply see that as minor "hair splitting."

~ To say "hangs the earth on nothing" is an odd statement. The earth is more floating in a vacuum, held in orbit by opposite forces.

And yet there is still nothing above it or below it holding it in place. It literally is hanging on nothing. To say the earth is floating connotates the earth is like a Macy's float on Thanksgiving day.

~ Hebrews 11:3 is quite a stretch.

Really? In what way? Let's review:

Hbr 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

By faith we understand that the worlds, i.e. universe, were framed (built) by the word (utterance) of God. So much so in fact that what is seen (the physical things of earth, i.e. matter) was not made out of what was visible.

Would anyone in there right mind believe a chair, a physical chair that one can sit in, is made of moving sub-atomic particles? Yet the Bible, Paul the apostle, states exactly that!And yet that world wasn't discovered by science until the microscope was invented.

Thus science can only discover what was already in existence. Now, where did that existence come from.

~How does the verse about blood give any new information about how it works in the body and how the function of the red and white cells and such affect health?

You watched the video right? Leviticus 17:11, 17 make the startling claim that the life of the body, any body, is in the blood. Every red blood cell functions in a way to remove waste, bring in nourishment, etc. These facts were only recently discovered by medical science.

~Stars and sand are numerous, yes, but just stating that fact isn't necessarily "something science didn't know".

The point being is that the Bible knew it and stated it well before science thought of it.

~It didn't take religion to know that rain falls from clouds. The vapor thing is interesting, . . . but Job also talks about how hail is stored in heavenly storehouses for days of battle.

Again you are sadly missing the point. The Bible reveled these truths long before science discovered them.

Shouldn't this be in the science portion of this site, though? Regardless, I didn't really care for Angels and Demons much. . . . but I love the music.

It does. My bad for putting it here. Hopefully the kind Admins here will move the discussion.

The point of the video is simple. While the Bible, the word of God Himself, has reveled scientific facts about His creation, religion and religious zealots have sought to deny the truths of the Bible.

 

[Orion]

Yes, hopefully an admin will move this to the science section.

Well, . . .the vagueness of the biblical text is hardly scientific. It seems to me that IF God was trying to point out the nature of our world, he would have given much more specific evidence that would have later been discovered by science, and that would have given credence to the Bible as being authoritative. Again, the verses quoted in the are very vague in what they could mean. And even if you can take them to mean how you believe, you still have to make your way through all the other completely non-sensical and un-scientific things (which outweigh the vague instances) such as "hail in heavenly storehouses", "lightning being told where to go", . . . etc. The last chapters of Job are literally filled with the un-scientific.

 

[RND]

Yes, hopefully an admin will move this to the science section.

Well, . . .the vagueness of the biblical text is hardly scientific. It seems to me that IF God was trying to point out the nature of our world, he would have given much more specific evidence that would have later been discovered by science, and that would have given credence to the Bible as being authoritative.

Or, maybe, God wanted people to be able to develop strong and study faith muscles to hold up under the extreme pressure of the prince of this world.

How would faith in God be developed if God gave everyone all the answers about everything under the sun? For example, in the very first verse of the book of Genesis there are three things listed that God created. Do you know what those three things are and how vital they were to the creation of the universe?

Again, the verses quoted in the are very vague in what they could mean.

To some. To others the constitute evidence of God's greatness.

And even if you can take them to mean how you believe, you still have to make your way through all the other completely non-sensical and un-scientific things (which outweigh the vague instances) such as "hail in heavenly storehouses", "lightning being told where to go", . . . etc. The last chapters of Job are literally filled with the un-scientific.

Again, to those that are just looking at words printed on paper you would be quite right. That is why one needs to have a distinct revelation of scripture given to them through God's Holy Spirit.

After all, the natural man can't receive the things of the Spirit of God, for those things are foolishness to him and he can't know these things, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Orion]

Or, maybe, God wanted people to be able to develop strong and study faith muscles to hold up under the extreme pressure of the prince of this world.

How would faith in God be developed if God gave everyone all the answers about everything under the sun?

Let me understand you. Are you saying that when God says that "hail stones are stored in heavenly storehouses for the day of battle", that we are supposed to take that by faith, rather than the "prince of this world's" answer to hail and how it actually forms?

Again, the verses quoted in the are very vague in what they could mean.

To some. To others the constitute evidence of God's greatness.

So, vagueness is evidence? A vagueness that requires people to do their own "reading into it"?

Again, to those that are just looking at words printed on paper you would be quite right. That is why one needs to have a distinct revelation of scripture given to them through God's Holy Spirit.

After all, the natural man can't receive the things of the Spirit of God, for those things are foolishness to him and he can't know these things, because they are spiritually discerned.

Because "hail stones in heavenly storehouses" is ridiculous. So what we have is "the foolish things of God which are only spiritually discerned", but what that means is that, BECAUSE of the vagueness, MEN are required to ATTEMPT to do so, based upon their own ability, flawed, ability, that is. And you can't use the phrase, "the Holy Spirit leads you to that truth", because the same scripture is "discerned" differently by differnt denominations. So, . . . . . . . I'm not speaking just about Job, but many places through out the Bible. IF the Holy Spirit was helping people discern this "Godly foolishness", then there would be only ONE denomination. All would be united under it.

 

[RND]

Let me understand you. Are you saying that when God says that "hail stones are stored in heavenly storehouses for the day of battle", that we are supposed to take that by faith, rather than the "prince of this world's" answer to hail and how it actually forms?

Um, yes. BTW, I was interested to see if you would answer my question: In the very first verse of the book of Genesis there are three things listed that God created. Do you know what those three things are and how vital they were to the creation of the universe?

So, vagueness is evidence? A vagueness that requires people to do their own "reading into it"?

My point was that the vagueness you are experiencing is your own, not mine. I don't see anything about Revelation as being vague.

Because "hail stones in heavenly storehouses" is ridiculous.

Sure, to some. But that simply makes my point for me.

So what we have is "the foolish things of God which are only spiritually discerned", but what that means is that, BECAUSE of the vagueness, MEN are required to ATTEMPT to do so, based upon their own ability, flawed, ability, that is.

Nope. It means that without the Holy Spirit it is impossible to know and understand the ways of the Lord.

And you can't use the phrase, "the Holy Spirit leads you to that truth", because the same scripture is "discerned" differently by differnt denominations.

Sure I can! Does every denomination have the Holy Spirit? Not even close. Now, do many individuals in those denominations have the Holy Spirit? You bet.

So, . . . . . . . I'm not speaking just about Job, but many places through out the Bible.

You'd need to provide some examples.

IF the Holy Spirit was helping people discern this "Godly foolishness", then there would be only ONE denomination. All would be united under it.

In all reality there really is only one denomination: Christian.

 

[Orion]

I'm not going to play, "find the ball under the cup", just tell me what you're wanting to point out in Genesis.

About the Holy Spirit, you have made my point for me. You asked, "does every denomination have the Holy Spirit", your answer was no. But then stated that some in those denominations do. Yet that doesn't address the issue of why denominations differ, some quite a lot, on some of the most vital topics. You believe that you have the Holy Spirit speaking to you, allowing you to discern "spiritual things", . . . yet the person from another viewpoint [in Christianity] doesn't always share yours, and they TOO would claim "inspiration from the Holy Spirit".

As for "the foolishness of God", and the book of Revelation, Job, and others, . . . it is certainly vague, and relies upon the mind of man to attempt an understanding. People are, of course, free to believe as they wish.

 

[RND]

I'm not going to play, "find the ball under the cup", just tell me what you're wanting to point out in Genesis.

you know something? If you earnestly and sincerely asked the Holy Spirit for guidance and revelation I'm sure it would be granted unto you. For our Father in heaven never withholds wisdom and knowledge from His children.

About the Holy Spirit, you have made my point for me. You asked, "does every denomination have the Holy Spirit", your answer was no. But then stated that some in those denominations do. Yet that doesn't address the issue of why denominations differ, some quite a lot, on some of the most vital topics.

I don't know that I was asked that. Denominations aren't imbued with the Holy Spirit, people are. As to why so many denominations differ on what the Bible says? I would say they are like the COI in the wilderness; they prefer not to hear the truth of God's word.

You believe that you have the Holy Spirit speaking to you, allowing you to discern "spiritual things", . . . yet the person from another viewpoint [in Christianity] doesn't always share yours, and they TOO would claim "inspiration from the Holy Spirit".

Yes, that's right. So we can only ask God for help in understanding His word.

As for "the foolishness of God", and the book of Revelation, Job, and others, . . . it is certainly vague, and relies upon the mind of man to attempt an understanding. People are, of course, free to believe as they wish.

It is vague only in your mind because you don't have the Holy Spirit to help you understand the word. Were you aware that the book of Revelation has 407 verses in it and over 2/3's of them are either direct quotes or direct references to the Tanakh?

So let's ask this. Without a firm understanding of the Old Testament do you think it would be possible to begin to understand the book of Revelation?

 

[Orion]

There are many who DO have a firm understanding of the Old Testament, yet who aren't Christians. I include myself in those numbers. However, I think we will probably get into a "back and forth" thing on this subject because it is your contention that "I won't really understand it without the Holy Spirit", and my contention is, "The Holy Spirit tells different denominations [those IN that denomination, to be specific] different things about the same topic", thus how could anyone ever fully know that THEY are right and another person "has gotten it wrong/hasn't heard the Holy Spirit at all"? So, I'm going to guess that we will have a stalemate here. I'm okay with that if you are.

 

[RND]

There are many who DO have a firm understanding of the Old Testament, yet who aren't Christians.

I haven't met any so far.

I include myself in those numbers.

Then you should easily be able to answer my question about Genesis.

However, I think we will probably get into a "back and forth" thing on this subject because it is your contention that "I won't really understand it without the Holy Spirit", and my contention is, "The Holy Spirit tells different denominations [those IN that denomination, to be specific] different things about the same topic",

Such a notion would make the HS a respecter of persons and inconsistent. Now, I am certainly not one without any understanding that certain things are not taught to certain people. This is similar to the notion as to why we don't teach 6 year-olds how to drive cars. Certain things are not taught because people wouldn't know or understand them. No big deal. God knows who His children are because they hear His voice.

thus how could anyone ever fully know that THEY are right and another person "has gotten it wrong/hasn't heard the Holy Spirit at all"? So, I'm going to guess that we will have a stalemate here. I'm okay with that if you are.

We are only at a stalemate because I'll bet you don't have the knowledge regarding the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, that you think you might.

So I'll ask again. What 3 things did God create in Genesis 1:1?

 

[Orion]

I didn't answer your question because it reads like you are trying to entrap me behind YOUR meaning, and since I don't know where you're going with it, I cannot answer your question. I don't know what you are actually asking. So just tell me what it is you're wanting to point out, and I'll let you know if I agree with it or not.

 

[RND]

I didn't answer your question because it reads like you are trying to entrap me behind YOUR meaning, and since I don't know where you're going with it, I cannot answer your question.

No trap. At all.

Gen 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

God creates time (In the beginning), space (the heaven), and matter (the earth) in Genesis 1. One doesn't need the HS to figure this out.

I don't know what you are actually asking.

Evidently.

So just tell me what it is you're wanting to point out, and I'll let you know if I agree with it or not.

Whether you agree with it is insignificant to understanding the truth. For example, the Torah points out that same sex intercourse is a sin. You may disagree. That doesn't change the truth of God's word.

 

[Orion]

If it doesn't take the HS, . . . then why state that I need it? But okay. So there is an interpretation of the text that one can use to "prove that the bible mentions time, space, and matter". Still vague and can be interpreted other ways. The writers of the biblical cannon weren't the only ones to have a creation story, and I'm sure one could read and pick out "scientific subject matter" in them, too. At the same time, you have a part of a story where things are just created, which has no scientific reality or testing. Then one has to wade through such things as "hail stones in heavenly storehouses". So, we're back to "the HS needing to help discern things", and who's heard the HS correctly.

I personally make no judgement on same sex encounters. I don't understand men doing such things. I find it rather disgusting. BUT, having said that, and since you brought up Leviticus, you would also have to agree that a witch should be put to death, along with any child who becomes unruley.

 

[RND]

If it doesn't take the HS, . . . then why state that I need it?

I was referring specifically to Gebesis 1:1 and not the whole Bible. If you expect to know anything about the Bible there is no way you will learn anything about the Bible without the Holy Spirit.

Now, you've claimed to know much about the OT. I suspect that is plain old misguided bravado. For example, can to tell me what the vessels used to catch the blood of the sacrificed lamb in the sanctuary service represent?

But okay. So there is an interpretation of the text that one can use to "prove that the bible mentions time, space, and matter". Still vague and can be interpreted other ways.

Such as?

The writers of the biblical cannon weren't the only ones to have a creation story, and I'm sure one could read and pick out "scientific subject matter" in them, too. At the same time, you have a part of a story where things are just created, which has no scientific reality or testing.

I suspect that's why it is called "faith."

Then one has to wade through such things as "hail stones in heavenly storehouses". So, we're back to "the HS needing to help discern things", and who's heard the HS correctly.

As I see it you'll forever have these questions until you desire to ask God to share His Holy Spirit with you and decide to accept His word on faith and faith alone.

I personally make no judgement on same sex encounters. I don't understand men doing such things. I find it rather disgusting. BUT, having said that, and since you brought up Leviticus, you would also have to agree that a witch should be put to death, along with any child who becomes unruley.

Not at all. Nor would I for a homosexual. But this type of question shows just how tremendously woeful your understanding of scripture really is. In the day that God gave this commandment the COI were used to and understood the immediacy and swiftness of judgment. That immediacy and swiftness was done for a specific reason so the infection of disobeying God could be quelled much more readily and directly. But God "is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

 

[Orion]

Firstly, I'm not going to get into a theology war with you. That isn't the point of the OP. What the vials are for, or represent, is inconsequential as far as I am concerned.

Secondly, as for what we were discussing on the Levitical laws, it is also inconsequential to this thread. You have stated that I can't understand these things because I "haven't asked the HS". Do you really believe that you know me? Do you believe that you can pass that sort of judgement on me? I was raised in the church, and am just into my 40's. But I will bet that you will and already have.

The point of my being in this thread is to point out the vague references of the video and the many other completely NON-scientific protions of Job as a counter. You tell me, do lightning bolts really report to God before striking the earth? Is rain caused by someone tipping over water jars from Heaven? Does the earth have a cornerstone? Are the seas shut up behind doors? The only logical response to these is that either they were spoken by a bronze age person with no scientific knowledge, or they are metaphorical. Same as Leviathan and Behemoth.

The bottom line, for me, is that it is a bit deceptive to give a lot of vague imagery and misleading information, then leave it to each individual person to be able to "hear the meaning from the HS", and punish that person if they can't. If the HS wants to let me in on all things biblical, then I am completely open to it, . . .and I say that will the utmost sincerity.

 

[RND]

Firstly, I'm not going to get into a theology war with you.

That's a wise decision.

That isn't the point of the OP. What the vials are for, or represent, is inconsequential as far as I am concerned.

Then you don't have nearly the understanding of the OT as you 'think' you do. And since you can't seem to be bothered with knowing these things and are inconsequential to you then I suspect you have what we would call a closed mind.

Secondly, as for what we were discussing on the Levitical laws, it is also inconsequential to this thread. You have stated that I can't understand these things because I "haven't asked the HS". Do you really believe that you know me? Do you believe that you can pass that sort of judgement on me? I was raised in the church, and am just into my 40's. But I will bet that you will and already have.

From what you have said and written yes, I think I can fairly note the knowledge of the Bible that you have. But bear this in mind: I have passed no judgment (no 'e') on you.

The point of my being in this thread is to point out the vague references of the video and the many other completely NON-scientific protions of Job as a counter. You tell me, do lightning bolts really report to God before striking the earth?

Do you understand anything at all about Hebrew poetry and figure of speech? What's that? No? Then how can you possiblly think to know what is being said in Job?

Is rain caused by someone tipping over water jars from Heaven? Does the earth have a cornerstone? Are the seas shut up behind doors? The only logical response to these is that either they were spoken by a bronze age person with no scientific knowledge, or they are metaphorical. Same as Leviathan and Behemoth.

They are all metaphors for the different things the represent in the Bible. You wouldn't ask such silly questions if you understood the Bible like you claim you do.

The bottom line, for me, is that it is a bit deceptive to give a lot of vague imagery and misleading information, then leave it to each individual person to be able to "hear the meaning from the HS", and punish that person if they can't.

You mean you blame God for tossing you a life-preserver but you fail to grasp it?

If the HS wants to let me in on all things biblical, then I am completely open to it, . . .and I say that will the utmost sincerity.

Then if I were you I'd lock myself in a private room or closet for about an hour and pour out your honest and sincere heart and ask God to give you His Holy Spirit so you can better know Him and Know His Son and their nature's and character's. Oh you might want to read this book: Steps to Christ

 

[Orion]

Dude, . . . your arrogance knows no bounds! I see it here and in other threads!!! You need to be less so, . . . just some friendly advice. I made no statement that I know all there is to know!

I don't NEED to know as much as you to find fault with what I DO know about. Do you understand this? Remove yourself from your high horse! You're not the "all in all" in religious matters, and you don't need to correct a spelling error to make some sort of statement "about how smart you are". :gah Do you care to compliment me on the words I DID spell correctly????

Finally, if God wants to "be my friend", . . . I shouldn't have to struggle and fight and flog myself to achieve it.

One last thing, . . . I do not like your attitude. It is course and filled with overbearing ego, and in your eyes, YOU are always right. You've made no attempt to answer the questions I have, but only told me how much I didn't know, "because I don't have the HS". That is no answer, and I reject it as YOUR answer. How much do YOU know for yourself? If all you are going to do is hide behind what you've offered so far, then we're done here.

 

[Orion]

So, . . . . .Ellen G. White, huh?

 

[RND]

Dude, . . . your arrogance knows no bounds! I see it here and in other threads!!! You need to be less so, . . . just some friendly advice. I made no statement that I know all there is to know!

You acted as if you knew more about the OT than most and you even said so. Come to find out you seemed to know virtually knowing about it.

PS: I'm not arrogant. I am quite direct however and maybe that's what you saw. My bad. I'll try to do better.

I don't NEED to know as much as you to find fault with what I DO know about. Do you understand this? Remove yourself from your high horse!

Look, it was you that stated you know more about the OT than most, not I. I just wanted to see how much you actually know and, just like everyone that has ever made such a ridiculous statement, you apparently don't know as much as you think.

You're not the "all in all" in religious matters, and you don't need to correct a spelling error to make some sort of statement "about how smart you are". :gah Do you care to compliment me on the words I DID spell correctly????

I'm very glad you can spell correctly and why would you take offense for someone telling you how to spell a word properly? I would think that would be something you'd appreciate! Now you'll always spell judgment properly. I imagine you'd appreciate that.

Finally, if God wants to "be my friend", . . . I shouldn't have to struggle and fight and flog myself to achieve it.

"...fight and flog..."? Catholic upbringing? I never said such a thing. I said talk to Him. Draw near to Him.

Psa 73:28 But [it is] good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works.

Hbr 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

One last thing, . . . I do not like your attitude.

So? Join the crowd.

It is course and filled with overbearing ego, and in your eyes, YOU are always right.

I'm not always right, far from it. But I do have much more Biblical knowledge than you do and I listen very intently to those that know much, much more about the Bible than me. When you stated you know more about the OT than most you painted a huge target on you! Now we know.

You've made no attempt to answer the questions I have, but only told me how much I didn't know, "because I don't have the HS".

I have answered numerous questions you have asked. You were the one that said they knew so much so I find it interesting that you would complain that I don't answer you questions.

That is no answer, and I reject it as YOUR answer.

Fine. You reject the knowledge that the Holy Spirit can impart to you. That's what free choice is all about. Yet God is long suffering and will always be there when you decide to asked Him to show you truth.

How much do YOU know for yourself?

Much more than you evidently.

If all you are going to do is hide behind what you've offered so far, then we're done here.

You do know and realize that spiritual things are spiritually discerned right?

1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

How can you possibly expect to know spiritual thing without the Holy Spirit?