Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish?

[Carry_Your_Name]

So Jesus wasn't in heaven even while He was on earth? Is that what you believe?

Aren't the Father and the Son two distinct beings? God shouted out at Jesus's baptism, "this is my beloved son, of whom I'm well pleased," was that Jesus playing tricks? I that what you believe?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Aren't the Father and the Son two distinct beings? God shouted out at Jesus's baptism, "this is my beloved son, of whom I'm well pleased," was that Jesus playing tricks? I that what you believe?

Clearly you haven't studied Trinitarian doctrine. God is Father Son and Holy Spirit in One infinite ocean of essence, Yahweh is One compound unity. One Name, three Persons are named:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (Matt. 28:19 NKJ)

They are distinct Persons in the one "Godhead".

There is only one Person named "Jesus", that is God's only begotten Son (Eternal Generation). God created all things in the Son. He is the Word, giving God's Thought concrete expression. In God the Word, all things "consist", are held together by His power:

16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col. 1:16-17 NKJ)

The "sphere of infinite Radius" that is God the Son never ceased to be God when He added to Himself the human nature of Jesus, born of the virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit's act of creation:

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. (Phil. 2:5-7 NKJ)

The "sphere of infinite Radius" that is God the Son "became centered" in the humanity of Jesus, without any confusion of natures. So the Person of Jesus now has two distinct natures. He is Infinite God the Son, and He walks incarnate in the resurrected humanity of Jesus Christ.

So Jesus is everywhere as God, but localized in the humanity of Jesus in heaven at the right hand of the Father.

All Christians believe in the Holy Trinity, with very minor differences. All the major systematic theologies treat it.

One major difference proposed by some scholars (Buswell etc.), they dispute the Son of God is truly the only begotten Son of the Father. They define "Son" to be just a title, not indicating eternal generation.

Scripture however (and Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant churches), reject the premise.

but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Jn. 20:31 NKJ)

17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (Jn. 3:17-18 NKJ)

10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. (1 Jn. 5:10-13 NKJ)

No doubt you can find pdf versions of Louis Berkoff's Systematic Theology, or Thiessen "Lectures in Systematic Theology" which provide great introductions to the doctrine. Or ask your pastor/priest to loan you one of his books on the subject.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Clearly you haven't studied Trinitarian doctrine. God is Father Son and Holy Spirit in One infinite ocean of essence, Yahweh is One compound unity. One Name, three Persons are named:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (Matt. 28:19 NKJ)

They are distinct Persons in the one "Godhead".

There is only one Person named "Jesus", that is God's only begotten Son (Eternal Generation). God created all things in the Son. He is the Word, giving God's Thought concrete expression. In God the Word, all things "consist", are held together by His power:

16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col. 1:16-17 NKJ)

The "sphere of infinite Radius" that is God the Son never ceased to be God when He added to Himself the human nature of Jesus, born of the virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit's act of creation:

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. (Phil. 2:5-7 NKJ)

The "sphere of infinite Radius" that is God the Son "became centered" in the humanity of Jesus, without any confusion of natures. So the Person of Jesus now has two distinct natures. He is Infinite God the Son, and He walks incarnate in the resurrected humanity of Jesus Christ.

So Jesus is everywhere as God, but localized in the humanity of Jesus in heaven at the right hand of the Father.

All Christians believe in the Holy Trinity, with very minor differences. All the major systematic theologies treat it.

One major difference, its important to remember that the Son of God is truly the only begotten Son of the Father, "Only Begotten Son" is not just a title:

but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Jn. 20:31-21:1 NKJ)

17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (Jn. 3:17-18 NKJ)

10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. (1 Jn. 5:10-13 NKJ)

If you have properly studied the Trinitarian doctrine, you wouldn't have asked me "So Jesus wasn't in heaven even while He was on earth?" God the Father is God's presence in heaven, Jesus is God's presence on earth. I've never, ever stated or implied that God the Son "ceased to be God" during his earthly ministry; but if you acknowledge the "human nature of Jesus, born of the virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit's act of creation", you should know that his fleshly presence was right here on earth, not in heaven, for there's a terrestrial body suitable for earth and a celestial body suitable for heaven, these two are not the same.

I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him. (Dan. 7:13)

There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (1 Cor. 15:40)

 

[Alfred Persson]

If you have properly studied the Trinitarian doctrine, you wouldn't have asked me "So Jesus wasn't in heaven even while He was on earth?" God the Father is God's presence in heaven, Jesus is God's presence on earth. I've never, ever stated or implied that God the Son "ceased to be God" during his earthly ministry; but if you acknowledge the "human nature of Jesus, born of the virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit's act of creation", you should know that his fleshly presence was right here on earth, not in heaven, for there's a terrestrial body suitable for earth and a celestial body suitable for heaven, these two are not the same.

I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him. (Dan. 7:13)

There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (1 Cor. 15:40)

I don't agree. Christ's crucified body was resurrected, He did not switch to a celestial body, His human body became a celestial body.


And the Father is equally present everywhere with the Son and Holy Spirit. They didn't section off areas of operation.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I don't agree. Christ's crucified body was resurrected, He did not switch to a celestial body, His human body became a celestial body.

That's because he's the "firstborn among the dead", a pattern for all his believers to follow (Colossians 1:18). When he returns, when the trumpet sounds, we shall rise like him - again, right here on earth, not in heaven, therefore he was resurrected in a terrestrial body.

And the Father is equally present every with the Son and Holy Spirit. They didn't section off areas of operation.

God the Father is the Father, God the Son is the Son, two distinct beings. God the Father is an all consuming fire, God the Son is the Messiah born in flesh. Yes, the Father is present with the Son until the Son's last breath on the cross; but no, the Father is NOT the Son, and the Son is NOT the Father, do not fall to the modalism heresy.

“Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father’s business?” (Lk. 2:49)

 

[Alfred Persson]

That's because he's the "firstborn among the dead", a pattern for all his believers to follow (Colossians 1:18). When he returns, when the trumpet sounds, we shall rise like him - again, right here on earth, not in heaven, therefore he was resurrected in a terrestrial body.

God the Father is the Father, God the Son is the Son, two distinct beings. God the Father is an all consuming fire, God the Son is the Messiah born in flesh. Yes, the Father is present with the Son until the Son's last breath on the cross; but no, the Father is NOT the Son, and the Son is NOT the Father, do not fall to the modalism heresy.

“Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father’s business?” (Lk. 2:49)

No, that is absurd. Paul is contrasting the earthly mortal weak bodies we have now, the get sick and die...with the heavenly immortal powerful bodies we get in Christ; which Christ got when He rose from the dead on the third day:

40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (1 Cor. 15:40-44 NKJ)

It is sown a "soulical body (σῶμα ψυχικόν), raised a "spiritual body (σῶμα πνευματικόν)", its a physical body (σῶμα) infused with "spirit" and so powerful, immortal and not like the weak physical bodies animated by "soul" (ψυχικόν).

You completely misunderstood the context, point of origin is not being discussed. What animates them and makes them different, is.

Your polytheism isn't Christian. God the Father and God the Son are not distinct Beings, that is absurd. You are confusing the incarnation of Christ with the Deity of Christ.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

No, that is absurd. Paul is contrasting the earthly mortal weak bodies we have now, the get sick and die...with the heavenly immortal powerful bodies we get in Christ; which Christ got when He rose from the dead on the third day:

No, what Paul wrote was a polemic against pagan beliefs of afterlife, such as floating ghost or reincarnation in another baby, that's what really is absurd. Jesus's resurrected, incorruptible body still bore the scar of the nails in the palms and the scar of the pierce in the midsection, he still had physiological needs, as he "ate in their presence", how is that a heavenly body like the sun, the moon and the stars in the sky? Does any angel eat broiled fish and honeycomb?

When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?” So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. And He took it and ate in their presence. (Lk. 26:40-43)

In 1 John, the rule of thumb that tells the Holy Spirit from evil spirits is acknowledgement of the Lord's humanity. It doesn't say that every spirit that denies Jesus is God, the only way or the messiah is not of God; it says every spirit that denies Jesus has come in FLESH is not of God, that means an earthly body. The resurrected body is immortal and incorruptible, but it's still on earth, not in heaven.

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. (1 Jn. 4:1-4)

Your polytheism isn't Christian. God the Father and God the Son are not distinct Beings, that is absurd. You are confusing the incarnation of Christ with the Deity of Christ.

Your modalism is a heresy. God the Father, the Son and the Spirit are not three identities of one man like father, son and husband, nor are they like three phases of water (ice, liquid and vapor); they are three co-equal, co-eternal beings in unity, that's the basic definition of the Holy Trinity.

 

[Alfred Persson]

No, what Paul wrote was a polemic against pagan beliefs of afterlife, such as floating ghost or reincarnation in another baby, that's what really is absurd. Jesus's resurrected, incorruptible body still bore the scar of the nails in the palms and the scar of the pierce in the midsection, he still had physiological needs, as he "ate in their presence", how is that a heavenly body like the sun, the moon and the stars in the sky? Does any angel eat broiled fish and honeycomb?

When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?” So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. And He took it and ate in their presence. (Lk. 26:40-43)

In 1 John, the rule of thumb that tells the Holy Spirit from evil spirits is acknowledgement of the Lord's humanity. It doesn't say that every spirit that denies Jesus is God, the only way or the messiah is not of God; it says every spirit that denies Jesus has come in FLESH is not of God, that means an earthly body. The resurrected body is immortal and incorruptible, but it's still on earth, not in heaven.

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. (1 Jn. 4:1-4)

Your modalism is a heresy. God the Father, the Son and the Spirit are not three identities of one man like father, son and husband, nor are they like three phases of water (ice, liquid and vapor); they are three co-equal, co-eternal beings in unity, that's the basic definition of the Holy Trinity.

Orthodox Trinitarianism isn't "modalism" or "heresy".

The "supernatural (spiritual) soma (body) is organically connected to the body that died, even if that seems impossible its not for God. It was Christ's choice to retain the evidence He was the one who died on the cross. Christians will have these supernatural bodies even during the Millennial reign of Christ. We will be able to eat and drink just like angels do. Nothing about this implies Christ's resurrection body wasn't glorious. He clearly veiled its glory so He would be recognized, and ate fish to prove He was not a spirit.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Orthodox Trinitarianism isn't "modalism" or "heresy".

If you deny the three distinct beings of one God, that's a heresy.

The "supernatural (spiritual) soma (body) is organically connected to the body that died, even if that seems impossible its not for God. It was Christ's choice to retain the evidence He was the one who died on the cross. Christians will have these supernatural bodies even during the Millennial reign of Christ. We will be able to eat and drink just like angels do. Nothing about this implies Christ's resurrection body wasn't glorious. He clearly veiled its glory so He would be recognized, and ate fish to prove He was not a spirit.

I never stated or implied that physiological need for food denigrates the glory of Christ's resurrected body. I just refuted your claim that "His human body became a celestial body." Just because resurrected body is incorruptible doesn't mean it's a celestial body, because a celestial body is a "great fire" that can't operate on earth, the Word must become flesh and dwell among us.

“The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, according to all you desired of the Lord your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’ “And the Lord said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. (Deut. 18:15-18)

 

[Alfred Persson]

If you deny the three distinct beings of one God, that's a heresy.

I never stated or implied that physiological need for food denigrates the glory of Christ's resurrected body. I just refuted your claim that "His human body became a celestial body." Just because resurrected body is incorruptible doesn't mean it's a celestial body, because a celestial body is a "great fire" that can't operate on earth, the Word must become flesh and dwell among us.

“The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, according to all you desired of the Lord your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’ “And the Lord said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. (Deut. 18:15-18)

You are confusing the word "being" with "Person". Three distinct beings is polytheism.

You didn't refute anything. His resurrection body transcended time and space, He would "appear" and "vanish" without going through walls or doors like a spirit. He was able to appear in different "forms" and prevent others from recognizing Him. His Celestial body far exceeded the capability and power of his crucified terrestrial body.

Moses' prophecy about Christ is irrelevant to your polytheism, and confusion about the resurrection body of Christ.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You are confusing the word "being" with "Person". Three distinct beings is polytheism.

Is God the Father a person in flesh and blood? Does God the Father eat broiled fish and honeycomb? "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent." (Num. 23:19) I call it "three beings” - or entities - for the purpose of preventing confusion, not to create confusion.

You didn't refute anything. His resurrection body transcended time and space, He would "appear" and "vanish" without going through walls or doors like a spirit. He was able to appear in different "forms" and prevent others from recognizing Him. His Celestial body far exceeded the capability and power of his crucified terrestrial body.

Then you're under the influence of an evil spirit as you're denying his humanity, according to 1 Jn. 4:1-4.

Moses' prophecy about Christ is irrelevant to your polytheism, and confusion about the resurrection body of Christ.

I'm not a polytheist, I'm a monotheist, I believe there's only one God who created heavens and earth, and He manifests as God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit in heaven, on earth and between heaven and earth. You're the one who doesn't understand resurrection as you defends annihilationism.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Is God the Father a person in flesh and blood? Does God the Father eat broiled fish and honeycomb? "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent." (Num. 23:19) I call it "three beings” - or entities - for the purpose of preventing confusion, not to create confusion.

Then you're under the influence of an evil spirit as you're denying his humanity, according to 1 Jn. 4:1-4.

I'm not a polytheist, I'm a monotheist, I believe there's only one God who created heavens and earth, and He manifests as God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit in heaven, on earth and between heaven and earth. You're the one who doesn't understand resurrection as you defends annihilationism.

Terminology is defined precisely so everyone can discuss the subject on the same page. Giving words a new definition isn't acceptable in scholarly circles. You'd be laughed off the stage if you tried to explain such peculiar ideas using words only you know the definition of.

Your confusion extends to what I believe. I do not deny Jesus came in the flesh, I explained the incarnation to you just a few posts ago. The Christian Orthodox Trinitarian view.

I would charge you with "heresy" but that requires a level of knowing the truth and deviating from it. You simply never learned what Christians believe. You skimmed through a couple of books and believed you understood it. You didn't.

 

[Barney Bright]

The thief who died beside Jesus went to Hades just as everyone else who died goes to Hades. Jesus when he died went to Hades, and he was their parts of three days, before he was resurrected. I have found nowhere in scripture that this thief went into paradise at the moment of his death.
At Luke 23:42 the thief pleaded with Jesus to remember him when he came into his kingdom. So the word paradise in Luke 23:43 refers to the Messianic kingdom that Jesus will be king of. The sheep are the one's who will inherit the kingdom at the second presence of Jesus Christ, which will occur at the resurrection of the righteous (1 Corinthians 15:50-53) The resurrection of the righteous is the culmination of conversion. Which means first one must repent of his/her evil deeds, be baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38-39; 8:14-17) The thief hadn't gone through the conversion process, conversion as taught in the Bible doesn't happen instantly, it's more than a deathbed repentance. Even though the thief admitted he deserved the death sentence for his evil deeds he did not have an opportunity to live a life of obedience to God, which is all part of the conversion. Jesus said at Matthew 12:40 that he would be in Hades three days when he was killed. This teaches us that the thief didn't join Jesus anywhere on that day Jesus died. After Jesus was resurrected he hadn't gone to heaven because he told Mary at John 20:17 that he hadn't.
The plain simple fact of the matter is when Luke 23:42, 43 was written there was no punctuation such as a comma. The comma came later into the scriptures and the comma was put in the wrong place in that scripture due to a lack of understanding. All you have to do is erase the comma after the word "you," and place the comma after the word "today." So Jesus would be saying to the thief, "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise." The comma put after the word today in Luke 23:43 agrees with the rest of the scriptures. So Jesus gave the thief the promise on the day they were dying that he would, (eventually, but not that same day) be with Jesus in his Father's Kingdom. So the thief went to Hades when he died and he's there until the resurrection.

 

[Alfred Persson]

The thief who died beside Jesus went to Hades just as everyone else who died goes to Hades. Jesus when he died went to Hades, and he was their parts of three days, before he was resurrected. I have found nowhere in scripture that this thief went into paradise at the moment of his death.
At Luke 23:42 the thief pleaded with Jesus to remember him when he came into his kingdom. So the word paradise in Luke 23:43 refers to the Messianic kingdom that Jesus will be king of.

Incorrect, that makes Jesus a liar. He said "Today you will be with me in Paradise".

42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:42-43 NKJ)

Jesus didn't say: "In a couple of thousand years, when I set up my millennial kingdom, you will be with me. Until then you will be in Hades."

I'm certain that wouldn't have comforted the thief at all.

When Jesus died his human soul went into Hades and preached to the spirits in Prison (1 Pet. 3:18-22).

Hades is not paradise.

Therefore, the thief went to third heaven (paradise 1 Cor. 12:2-4) where the Infinite Almighty Son of God Jesus is.

Corroborating this, Jesus did NOT say:

"Today you will be with me in Hades"

I'm certain that wouldn't have comforted the thief at all.

 

[Butch5]

Incorrect, that makes Jesus a liar. He said "Today you will be with me in Paradise".

42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:42-43 NKJ)

Jesus didn't say: "In a couple of thousand years, when I set up my millennial kingdom, you will be with me. Until then you will be in Hades."

I'm certain that wouldn't have comforted the thief at all.

When Jesus died his human soul went into Hades and preached to the spirits in Prison (1 Pet. 3:18-22).

Hades is not paradise.

Therefore, the thief went to third heaven (paradise 1 Cor. 12:2-4) where the Infinite Almighty Son of God Jesus is.

Corroborating this, Jesus did NOT say:

"Today you will be with me in Hades"

I'm certain that wouldn't have comforted the thief at all.

There is no punctuation in the manuscripts. It's added by the translator and placed at their discretion. The comma could just as easily be placed after the word today which completely changes the time frame if the statement.

"Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise."

 

[Alfred Persson]

There is no punctuation in the manuscripts. It's added by the translator and placed at their discretion. The comma could just as easily be placed after the word today which completely changes the time frame if the statement.

"Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise."

Doesn't change Jesus' statement. They will both die that day. Thousands of years waiting for paradise is utterly foreign to the context:

"Assuredly, I say to you today you will be with Me in few thousand years when I set up my Kingdom. Until then you will be in Hades"

No possible way anyone honest with the plain meaning of this text, can adopt your EISEGESIS.

Translators put commas everywhere in the NT, when they should be there, as in this text. Their understanding of the Greek, and the context, is vastly superior to yours.

 

[Barney Bright]

Carry_your_name said,
If you have properly studied the Trinitarian doctrine, you wouldn't have asked me "So Jesus wasn't in heaven even while He was on earth?" God the Father is God's presence in heaven, Jesus is God's presence on earth. I've never, ever stated or implied that God the Son "ceased to be God" during his earthly ministry; but if you acknowledge the "human nature of Jesus, born of the virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit's act of creation", you should know that his fleshly presence was right here on earth, not in heaven, for there's a terrestrial body suitable for earth and a celestial body suitable for heaven, these two are not the same.[/QUOTE\]

The Apostle Paul is known to be the apostle to the gentiles. He is even known to be the recorder of many theological doctrines for the early church. Yet, throughout his writings, you will never find any mention of the Trinity.
As popular as this doctrine is, the word “Trinity” is never mentioned in the Bible, and the belief that God is made up of three persons coexisting in one substance or being, is nowhere written in the Holy Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation.
Take a look at the salutations in all the books of the Bible that Paul wrote you can see in these salutations that the Holy Spirit is left out. If Paul recognized that the Holy Spirit is another divine being, then he should have included it in his salutations. Failure in doing so can mean a BIG insult to the Holy Spirit.
Also take a look at the audience that Paul spoke to. The majority of the recipients of Paul’s letters are gentiles. These gentiles have polytheistic background who had formerly worshipped different gods. Sending them letters is a golden opportunity for Paul to teach the Trinity and introduce new converts to this doctrine, however, you will not find any of those things.
At 1 Corinthians 8:6, which says, "But to us, there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." Now think about that, if Paul really believes in the Trinity, why would he not mention it here? Instead, we consistently see only two beings, God the Father and Jesus Christ, being mentioned.
The only mention of the Holy Spirit along with God the Father and Jesus Christ is at 2 Corinthians 13:14. It says, “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.”
I can see myself this doesn't support the Trinity doctrine. This scripture only means that Christians are bonded and unified by God’s Spirit. We have fellowship with God and Jesus through the Holy Spirit, which is their power (Luke 1:35).
We are to worship God, in truth and spirit (John 4:24). Therefore, we must always examine the things we believe in and have God’s written word as our ultimate authority. When it comes to the
people who believe in the Trinity, there are no scriptures written down that say what they believe concerning the scriptures they use to support the Trinity, they instead use interpretation to say what they believe about the Trinity, but what they say isn't written down anywhere in scripture.

​

 

[Butch5]

Doesn't change Jesus' statement. They will both die that day. Thousands of years waiting for paradise is utterly foreign to the context:

"Assuredly, I say to you today you will be with Me in few thousand years when I set up my Kingdom. Until then you will be in Hades"

No possible way anyone honest with the plain meaning of this text, can adopt your EISEGESIS.

Translators put commas everywhere in the NT, when they should be there, as in this text. Their understanding of the Greek, and the context, is vastly superior to yours.

It only takes a little research. My friend, if you would take time to listen you might learn a thing or two.

"Punctuation marks, therefore, are not an integral part of the canonical text. In fact, they reveal only how the text was read and understood by those who copied it. So, when Luke 23:43 was punctuated, the comma was placed before sēmeron not for grammatical reasons, but for the theological conviction prevailing at the time that the final reward of the faithful who die comes immediately after death."

I just popped it into Google and took the fit hit.

The Significance of a Comma: An Analysis of Luke 23:43

What does the evidence teach us about the proper meaning of Luke 23:43?

www.ministrymagazine.org

 

[Alfred Persson]

It only takes a little research. My friend, if you would take time to listen you might learn a thing or two.

"Punctuation marks, therefore, are not an integral part of the canonical text. In fact, they reveal only how the text was read and understood by those who copied it. So, when Luke 23:43 was punctuated, the comma was placed before sēmeron not for grammatical reasons, but for the theological conviction prevailing at the time that the final reward of the faithful who die comes immediately after death."

I just popped it into Google and took the fit hit.

The Significance of a Comma: An Analysis of Luke 23:43

What does the evidence teach us about the proper meaning of Luke 23:43?

www.ministrymagazine.org

Translations have committees to weed out denominational bias.

Exegesis requires Christ's promise be fulfilled that day, they both die then. The testimony of the versions is overwhelming:



NKJ Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

RPTE Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

KJV Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

NIV Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

NLT Luke 23:43 And Jesus replied, "I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise."

MIT Luke 23:43 He replied, "I assure you: You will be with me today in paradise."

RSV Luke 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

YLT Luke 23:43 and Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'


NAU Luke 23:43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

CSBO Luke 23:43 And He said to him, "I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise."

CSB Luke 23:43 And He said to him, " I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise."

CEB Luke 23:43 Jesus replied, "I assure you that today you will be with me in paradise."

DRA Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

ASV Luke 23:43 And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

NAS Luke 23:43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

CJB Luke 23:43 Yeshua said to him, "Yes! I promise that you will be with me today in Gan-'Eden."

ETH Luke 23:43 Jeshu saith to him, Amen I say to thee, That to-day with me thou shalt be in Paradise.

LEW Luke 23:43 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

MRD Luke 23:43 Jesus said to him: Verily I say to you, That this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

MGI Luke 23:43 Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise."

DBY Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

ERV Luke 23:43 And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

ESV Luke 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

GNV Luke 23:43 Then Iesus said vnto him, Verely I say vnto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

TNT Luke 23:43 And Iesus sayde vnto him: Verely I saye vnto the to daye shalt thou be with me in Paradyse.

GWN Luke 23:43 Jesus said to him, "I can guarantee this truth: Today you will be with me in paradise."

BBE Luke 23:43 And he said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you will be with me in Paradise.

NAB Luke 23:43 He replied to him, "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

NET Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

NIB Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

NIRV Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "What I'm about to tell you is true. Today you will be with me in paradise."

NJB Luke 23:43 He answered him, 'In truth I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.'

NRS Luke 23:43 He replied, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

PNT Luke 23:43 And Iesus sayde vnto hym: Ueryly I say vnto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

RWB Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, This day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

WEB Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, This day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

AERG Luke 23:43 and say he truly you assure this-very-day in-company-with I be in the Paradise

BERG Luke 23:43 and say he the Jesus truly assure you this-very-day in-company-with I be in the Paradise

ATGNT Luke 23:43 and say self verily you say today after of me be in the Paradise

BTGNT Luke 23:43 and say self the Jesus verily say you today after of me be in the Paradise

NOY Luke 23:43 And he said to him, Truly do I say to thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

NABO Luke 23:43 He replied to him, "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

NIVO Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

I found ONE version (THE ROTHERHAM BIBLE ROT) that puts the comma elsewhere, but as the text is read and one recalls the scene where both Jesus and the Thief will die that day, its clear Jesus promised the thief would be in HEAVEN with Jesus God the Son, which would be "paradise":

And he said unto him--Verily, I say unto thee this day: With me, shalt thou be in Paradise. (Lk. 23:43 ROT)

 

[Butch5]

Translations have committees to weed out denominational bias.

Exegesis requires Christ's promise be fulfilled that day, they both die then. The testimony of the versions is overwhelming:



NKJ Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

RPTE Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

KJV Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

NIV Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

NLT Luke 23:43 And Jesus replied, "I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise."

MIT Luke 23:43 He replied, "I assure you: You will be with me today in paradise."

RSV Luke 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

YLT Luke 23:43 and Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'


NAU Luke 23:43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

CSBO Luke 23:43 And He said to him, "I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise."

CSB Luke 23:43 And He said to him, " I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise."

CEB Luke 23:43 Jesus replied, "I assure you that today you will be with me in paradise."

DRA Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

ASV Luke 23:43 And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

NAS Luke 23:43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

CJB Luke 23:43 Yeshua said to him, "Yes! I promise that you will be with me today in Gan-'Eden."

ETH Luke 23:43 Jeshu saith to him, Amen I say to thee, That to-day with me thou shalt be in Paradise.

LEW Luke 23:43 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

MRD Luke 23:43 Jesus said to him: Verily I say to you, That this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

MGI Luke 23:43 Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise."

DBY Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

ERV Luke 23:43 And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

ESV Luke 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

GNV Luke 23:43 Then Iesus said vnto him, Verely I say vnto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

TNT Luke 23:43 And Iesus sayde vnto him: Verely I saye vnto the to daye shalt thou be with me in Paradyse.

GWN Luke 23:43 Jesus said to him, "I can guarantee this truth: Today you will be with me in paradise."

BBE Luke 23:43 And he said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you will be with me in Paradise.

NAB Luke 23:43 He replied to him, "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

NET Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

NIB Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

NIRV Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "What I'm about to tell you is true. Today you will be with me in paradise."

NJB Luke 23:43 He answered him, 'In truth I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.'

NRS Luke 23:43 He replied, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

PNT Luke 23:43 And Iesus sayde vnto hym: Ueryly I say vnto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

RWB Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, This day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

WEB Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, This day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

AERG Luke 23:43 and say he truly you assure this-very-day in-company-with I be in the Paradise

BERG Luke 23:43 and say he the Jesus truly assure you this-very-day in-company-with I be in the Paradise

ATGNT Luke 23:43 and say self verily you say today after of me be in the Paradise

BTGNT Luke 23:43 and say self the Jesus verily say you today after of me be in the Paradise

NOY Luke 23:43 And he said to him, Truly do I say to thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

NABO Luke 23:43 He replied to him, "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

NIVO Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

All you're showing me confirmation bias. Of course they all read the same. They all believe the same thing.

If I get 50 people who believe 5+5=30 and the all write it in a book it doesn't mean it's correct. It only means they all believe the same thing.

The fact that there was no punctuation shows that the passage can be understood either way. Thus it cannot be claimed accurately that your understanding is the correct one.

Again, if you'd stop trying to prove everyone wrong and listen you might learn a few things.