Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish?

[Carry_Your_Name]

While it is correct to say "Hades/Sheol" is the "unseen realm" and even third heaven (because its unseen) is a level of existence in Sheol/hades---scripture separates "Abraham's bosom" (paradise) from Hades; the rich man had to look up to see Lazarus:

No, Abraham's bosom (paradise) is one side of Hades, it's not third heaven. Don't lecture me with a wall of text, just tell me this, did Jesus go down to Hades/Sheol? If so, then all his followers will go down to Hades/Sheol, and God will raise us up in the same way he raised up Jesus.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Please establish your premise. Posting explanations based on a false premise don't prove anything.

I did. I will add red font, perhaps you will see it this time:

27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.-Ezek. 18:27-28

 

[Alfred Persson]

No, Abraham's bosom (paradise) is one side of Hades, it's not third heaven. Don't lecture me with a wall of text, just tell me this, did Jesus go down to Hades/Sheol? If so, then all his followers will go down to Hades/Sheol, and God will raise us up in the same way he raised up Jesus.

Where did the thief on the cross go? Paradise, which is in Third Heaven. He didn't go to hades:

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ)

2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I know such a man-- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2 Cor. 12:2-4 NKJ)

Christ's human soul descended into Hades and preached to the spirits in prison, but God the Son never ceased to be in the Godhead with the Father and the Holy Spirit, as this text reveals. While the Incarnate God the Son, Son of Man spoke, He never ceased to be God in Heaven:

"No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. (Jn. 3:13 NKJ)

No one ascended and then descended from heaven to preach before Christ, He alone came down from heaven to preach, even the Son of Man who is in Heaven (never ceasing to be God the Son).

 

[Alfred Persson]

This is not true:

1. Christ himself went to Hades for at least two days - "For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption" (Acts 2:27), what makes you think that we can be exempted? No servant is greater than his master.
2. The resurrection takes place right here on earth, if we were already in "third heaven", why would we fall back to earth?
3. In the story of the rich man and the beggar, they ended up in the two sides of the great gulf, that's where all the dead will go, the righteous go to Abraham's bosom, also known as paradise, the wicked go join the rich man. That's how the sheep and goat are separated.
4. In the sixth seal, dead martyrs are crying out for justice, and you admitted that they are not happy at all, does that sound like they are in third heaven to you?

I proved its true. When the thief on the cross died his soul went to Paradise, which is in Third Heaven.
He didn't go to hades:

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ)

2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I know such a man-- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2 Cor. 12:2-4 NKJ)

1) The human soul of Jesus went to hades and preached to the spirits in prison but God the Son never ceased to be in the Godhead with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Christ can be in paradise in heaven and in Hades preaching at the same time. With God all things are possible.


2)The first resurrection happens among the saints in paradise in third heaven, THEN on earth during the rapture, during Christ's Parousia ("coming"). All Christians who have sold all they owned to follow Christ, died to self, are martyrs in Jesus:

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming (3952 παρουσία parousia) of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words (1 Thess. 4:13-18 NKJ)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev. 20:4-6 NKJ)


This is before Christ Triumphant enters Jerusalem with His holy angels to judge the Sheep and goats. These resurrected are "Christ's brethren" seated with Him during this judgment of unsaved Christendom from all the nations:

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' (Matt. 25:31-40 NKJ)

Christ is pointing to them as He speaks "these My brethren". They are all who took part in the First Resurrection, Christ's Kings and Priests.

Christ's Kings and Priests sit with Christ during judgments of men and angels:

2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? (1 Cor. 6:2-3 NKJ)



3)The rich man in Hades had to look up to see where the angels had carried Lazarus, because he wasn't in Hades:

22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Lk. 16:22-23 NKJ)



4) The fifth seal is opened before the first resurrection. They are still unclothed souls in heaven under the Altar of God, which is NOT in hades. They are given white robes to wear until the resurrection:

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
(Rev. 6:9-11 NKJ)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Where did the thief on the cross go? Paradise, which is in Third Heaven. He didn't go to hades:

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ)

That's another name of Abraham's bosom, not third heaven. In Rev. 1:18, Jesus holds the key of Death and Hades, what's the point of that if the dead went straight up to third heaven?

Christ's human soul descended into Hades and preached to the spirits in prison, but God the Son never ceased to be in the Godhead with the Father and the Holy Spirit, as this text reveals. While the Incarnate God the Son, Son of Man spoke, He never ceased to be God in Heaven:

"No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. (Jn. 3:13 NKJ)

No one ascended and then descended from heaven to preach before Christ, He alone came down from heaven to preach, even the Son of Man who is in Heaven (never ceasing to be God the Son).

Yet according to Rev. 1:18, the same Son of God lived, died and lives forevermore, when he died on the cross, he yielded his spirit to heaven - "father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" He himself didn't ascend until fourty days later after his resurrection - "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father."

 

[Alfred Persson]

That's another name of Abraham's bosom, not third heaven. In Rev. 1:18, Jesus holds the key of Death and Hades, what's the point of that if the dead went straight up to third heaven?

Yet according to Rev. 1:18, the same Son of God lived, died and lives forevermore, when he died on the cross, he yielded his spirit to heaven - "father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" He himself didn't ascend until fourty days later after his resurrection - "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father."

Paul clearly substituted "paradise" for "third heaven", showing they are in the same place.

Christ uses the keys to let people out of hades anytime he wants. During His second coming for example, letting out all who PASSED THEIR JUDGMENT after they died, and then eagerly waited for His Second Coming for salvation from hades:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

Orthodox Trinitarian doctrine holds Christ has two natures, one human and one divine.

Jesus' human nature was impaled at the cross, not His divine Nature. He committed His human spirit to God's care. Then his human soul was "quickened by the Spirit" and clothed in the Holy Spirit He went and preached to the hybrid human-angel spirits in prison, who wouldn't believe Noah when he said God could overlook their hybrid nature and forgive them.

They gave the answer of a good conscience to Christ's preaching just as the Church does, which reminded Peter of Baptism, how we die in Christ but are raised up in Him as new creatures.

Then Christ rose from the dead, His soul was not left in Sheol or Hades, neither did His human body see corruption, it was raised up and became infused with Holy Spirit, a spiritual body incorruptible. We get the same bodies when are raised up.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (1 Cor. 15:45-49 KJV)

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. (Dan. 12:2-3 KJV)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I proved its true. When the thief on the cross died his soul went to Paradise, which is in Third Heaven.
He didn't go to hades:

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ)

You didn't prove that paradise is third heaven. Nowhere in the bible indicated such a connection.

1) The human soul of Jesus went to hades and preached to the spirits in prison but God the Son never ceased to be in the Godhead with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Christ can be in paradise in heaven and in Hades preaching at the same time. With God all things are possible.

There's not two Jesuses revealed to apostle John in Revelation 1, only one who went down to Hades. Again, Jesus told Mary Magdalene that he had not ascended to the Father yet. Of course the godhead is one, but keep in mind, that when Jesus cried out on the cross, "my God, my God, why have to forsaken me?" That's the moment when God literally forsook him, otherwise he wouldn't have died.

The first resurrection happens among the saints in paradise in third heaven, THEN on earth during the rapture, during Christ's Parousia ("coming"). All Christians who have sold all they owned to follow Christ, died to self, are martyrs in Jesus:

"Alien abduction" or "sudden disappearance" style rapture is a false doctrine, what you quote from 1 Thess. 4 is simply teaching about the first resurrection, and that's a resurrection from the grave, which is Hades. The risen saints are to be caught up by the returning King of kings, not descending with the King of kings from heaven.

3)The rich man in Hades had to look up to see where the angels had carried Lazarus, because he wasn't in Hades:

Lk. 16:22-23 NKJ doesn't specify Abraham's bosom as "third heavens". When Abraham died, he was "gathered to his kins" (Gen. 25:7), which means his ancestors. Lazarus, being Abraham's seed, was gathered to his ancestor Abraham.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Paul clearly substituted "paradise" for "third heaven", showing they are in the same place.

Christ uses the keys to let people out of hades anytime he wants. During His second coming for example, letting out all who PASSED THEIR JUDGMENT after they died, and then eagerly waited for His Second Coming for salvation from hades:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

Orthodox Trinitarian doctrine holds Christ has two natures, one human and one divine.

Jesus' human nature was impaled at the cross, not His divine Nature. He committed His human spirit to God's care. Then his human soul was "quickened by the Spirit" and clothed in the Holy Spirit He went and preached to the hybrid human-angel spirits in prison, who wouldn't believe Noah when he said God could overlook their hybrid nature and forgive them.

They gave the answer of a good conscience to Christ's preaching just as the Church does, which reminded Peter of Baptism, how we die in Christ but are raised up in Him as new creatures.

Then Christ rose from the dead, His soul was not left in Sheol or Hades, neither did His human body see corruption, it was raised up and became infused with Holy Spirit, a spiritual body incorruptible. We get the same bodies when are raised up.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (1 Cor. 15:45-49 KJV)

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. (Dan. 12:2-3 KJV)

Yes, Jesus has both human and divine nature, for he is son of both God and man; but he's also the only one who's in human flesh yet without sin, he didn't die for his own sin which, when is full grown, brings forth death; he took OUR sin upon himself and he died for us, that's not a sinful nature crucified on the cross in the sense Paul wrote in Gal. 2:20.

“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself." (Dan. 9:26)

 

[Alfred Persson]

You didn't prove that paradise is third heaven. Nowhere in the bible indicated such a connection.

There's not two Jesuses revealed to apostle John in Revelation 1, only one who went down to Hades. Again, Jesus told Mary Magdalene that he had not ascended to the Father yet. Of course the godhead is one, but keep in mind, that when Jesus cried out on the cross, "my God, my God, why have to forsaken me?" That's the moment when God literally forsook him, otherwise he wouldn't have died.

"Alien abduction" or "sudden disappearance" style rapture is a false doctrine, what you quote from 1 Thess. 4 is simply teaching about the first resurrection, and that's a resurrection from the grave, which is Hades. The risen saints are to be caught up by the returning King of kings, not descending with the King of kings from heaven.

Lk. 16:22-23 NKJ doesn't specify Abraham's bosom as "third heavens". When Abraham died, he was "gathered to his kins" (Gen. 25:7), which means his ancestors. Lazarus, being Abraham's seed, was gathered to his ancestor Abraham.

Bible interpretation requires "wisdom", today its called "critical thinking". One must be able to see connections in the data.

Paul gives the same place a man went two different names: "third heaven"; "Paradise". Therefore, "Third Heaven" is also called "Paradise" OR "Paradise" is located in Third Heaven. Either way, it proves the thief who went to paradise did not go to hades:

2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I know such a man-- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2 Cor. 12:2-4 NKJ)

There is only one Jesus, but he is hypostatically in two natures, human and divine. As God, all things consist in Christ (Col. 1:17), as the Son of man Christ's "body soul spirit" is spatially in a locality just like us because He is fully human.

I have other things to do. I have devoted lots of time to your questions, but what I say doesn't register.

I suggest you go back and read everything again and try to understand my arguments. I cited the scriptures that support them. Often bolding the exact words that prove my premise.

But you never treat that. You ignore it.

Try challenging me on a premise and the scripture I quoted in support..

 

[Barney Bright]

What Cullmann says that you agree with is irrelevant. You attributed to him words he never said, to support an idea he pointedly disagrees with.

I sometimes cite scholarship whose exegesis agrees with my conclusion, but the scholars themselves reject for other reasons I don't agree with. When that happens I state why I don't agree with their rejection of the literal meaning of the text. For example, on my site I cite a scholar on Daniel 8:14


END NOTES
[1]
The usual translation of Dan. 8:14 “sanctuary will be cleansed” is chosen over a more literal and likely meaning, “will be vindicated” because translators refuse to allow Daniel is prophecy actually foretelling events. The vindication of the church’s faith is pictured in Revelation 15:1-8. It appears suddenly disconnected to the surrounding events. Chronologically, it 2,300 days after the beginning of the end time week, after everyone is raptured or gathered by Christ angels. Their faith in God now vindicated and celebrated in heaven.

Commentators reject the literal reading because:


It is NOT unhistorical the "Temple of God" prophetically in the End Time is the Church (1 Cor. 3:16-17; 6:19. 2 Cor. 6:16. 2 Thess. 2:4. Eph. 2:21), then the literal meaning of the Church being vindicated for her faith in God could be what the text is literally referring to. Of course, reference to the Church, the vision of the Church would likely add to the reasons why these visions were "sealed" to Daniel, he couldn't understand them. End time events would unseal the words (Dan. 12:8-9).


So I explain why they are wrong, it isn't unhistorical to consider the Church as the Temple of God being vindicated, She trusted in God and He delivered, on time and under budget I might add.

The reasons you choose to cite a scholarship or not is your decision. I don't speak out against someone for the reasons they cite a scholarship or not. However I will not agree with everything a person says whether he's a scholar or not if he says something that I don't see written down in scripture. For example, with the way Genesis 2:7 has been written down, I see nothing in this scripture how it's written down, that I'll agree with anyone, whether he's a scholar or not if he reasons in such a way that he's saying a living soul was given the physical human body. That's the reason why I'm against such phrases that anyone says, scholar or not, that's stating, or suggesting the living soul is separate from the physical human body. Like when Professor Cullman was saying the soul can exist as a shade for a period of time. I will not agree with a statement like that because I don't agree it's supporting Genesis 2:7. However that doesn't mean I disagree with everything he says, as long as what he says supports what's written down in scripture. But I'm not going to care whether a person is a scholar or not if that person is saying or suggesting the living soul is separate from the physical human body, because I don't agree he's supporting how Genesis 2:7 is written down. I'm going to always agree with how Genesis 2:7 is written down, and it doesn't say that a living soul was given the physical human body. So if the breath\spirit of life isn't in the physical human body, no living soul exists. To say the living soul still exists or suggest it still exists separate from the physical human body I will continue to disagree with because Genesis 2:7 makes it very clear to me that no living soul existed until when God blew the breath\spirit of life into the physical human body. Since Genesis 2:7 shows me how it's written down that no living soul existed until God combined the breath\spirit of life with the physical human body then that means when the breath\spirit of life is no longer combined with the physical human body there is no living soul existing any longer. To say there is your saying that it's the breath\spirit of life that is the living soul and that disagrees with how Genesis 2:7 is written.

 

[Butch5]

I did. I will add red font, perhaps you will see it this time:

27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.-Ezek. 18:27-28

You haven't. What you've provided are passages upon which you've imposed you're unestsblished premise. We can easily translate the verse this way.

27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his life alive
Here's the passage from the Septuagint.

Ezekiel 18:27–28 (NETS (Primary Texts)): 27And when a lawless one turns back from his lawlessness that he committed and should he perform judgment and righteousness, he has preserved his soul 28and has turned back from all his impieties that he committed; he shall live by life; he shall not die.

The word translated life is zaō. Here is what BDAG (what many consider the leading lexicon of our day) says about this word.

[ζάω] contr. ζῶ (Hom.+) impf. ἔζων (Ro 7:9 B ἔζην; on this form s. Schwyzer I 675; B-D-F §88; Mlt-H. 194, both w. ref.); fut. ζήσω (uniformly attested Ro 6:2; Hb 12:9); the later (since Hippocr. VII p. 536 L.; LXX; AscIs 3:9; Jos., Ant. 1, 193 al.) form ζήσομαι (B-D-F §77; Rob. 356) is more common (on the fut. forms s. JLee, NovT 22, ’80, 289–98; GKilpatrick, ibid. 25, ’83, 146–51); 1 aor. ἔζησα. On the LXX usage s. Thackeray 269; for forms in pap, Gignac II 370.
① to be alive physically, live
ⓐ of physical life in contrast to death

As you can see, it's talking about physical life. It's not talking talking about living on as ghost when th le body dies. That is a concept you're imposing on the passage

 

[Alfred Persson]

The reasons you choose to cite a scholarship or not is your decision. I don't speak out against someone for the reasons they cite a scholarship or not. However I will not agree with everything a person says whether he's a scholar or not if he says something that I don't see written down in scripture. For example, with the way Genesis 2:7 has been written down, I see nothing in this scripture how it's written down, that I'll agree with anyone, whether he's a scholar or not if he reasons in such a way that he's saying a living soul was given the physical human body. That's the reason why I'm against such phrases that anyone says, scholar or not, that's stating, or suggesting the living soul is separate from the physical human body. Like when Professor Cullman was saying the soul can exist as a shade for a period of time. I will not agree with a statement like that because I don't agree it's supporting Genesis 2:7. However that doesn't mean I disagree with everything he says, as long as what he says supports what's written down in scripture. But I'm not going to care whether a person is a scholar or not if that person is saying or suggesting the living soul is separate from the physical human body, because I don't agree he's supporting how Genesis 2:7 is written down. I'm going to always agree with how Genesis 2:7 is written down, and it doesn't say that a living soul was given the physical human body. So if the breath\spirit of life isn't in the physical human body, no living soul exists. To say the living soul still exists or suggest it still exists separate from the physical human body I will continue to disagree with because Genesis 2:7 makes it very clear to me that no living soul existed until when God blew the breath\spirit of life into the physical human body. Since Genesis 2:7 shows me how it's written down that no living soul existed until God combined the breath\spirit of life with the physical human body then that means when the breath\spirit of life is no longer combined with the physical human body there is no living soul existing any longer. To say there is your saying that it's the breath\spirit of life that is the living soul and that disagrees with how Genesis 2:7 is written.

Sir, I never suggested scholarship has more authority than scripture. Sola Scriptura is the principle that scripture is above everything else. I objected to misquoting scholarship, its sloppy or worse, deceptive.

One reason why I don't quote only the words in scripture that support my position, but provide enough context so people can read what those words mean in context, is to prove I am not taking scripture "out of context to prove a pretext."

Some dislike seeing all that scripture in a post. That I cannot understand, scripture alone is God's Word. If I claim a text contains a premise, I want others to read the text and determine themselves if I speak correctly.

I cited Professor Gustav Oehler because he applied logic to discern what Genesis 2:7 taught, and I believe his exegesis was very clear, easily understood. But his opinions are only opinions we all must decide if we agree or disagree.

 

[Barney Bright]

But although the life-spring of the רוּחַ, from which the soul arises, is common to man and beast, both do not originate from it in the same way. The souls of animals arise, like plants from the earth, as a consequence of the divine word of power, Gen. 1:24 (תּוֹצֵא הָאָרֶץ נֶפֶשׁ).

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I suggest you go back and read everything again and try to understand my arguments. I cited the scriptures that support them. Often bolding the exact words that prove my premise.

But you never treat that. You ignore it.

Try challenging me on a premise and the scripture I quoted in support..

I suggest you examine your understanding of elementary theology. Dual nature of Jesus is not dual entities, God the Son is God the Son, he didn't split into two entities, one ascends to heaven, the other descends to hades. There's only one Jesus who lived, died, rose, ascended and seated at the right hand of the Father.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I suggest you examine your understanding of elementary theology. Dual nature of Jesus is not dual entities, God the Son is God the Son, he didn't split into two entities, one ascends to heaven, the other descends to hades. There's only one Jesus who lived, died, rose, ascended and seated at the right hand of the Father.

So Jesus wasn't in heaven even while He was on earth? Is that what you believe?

 

[Barney Bright]

Alfred Persson said,
Where did the thief on the cross go? Paradise, which is in Third Heaven. He didn't go to hades:

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ) [/QUOTE\]

You think the thief didn't go to Hades? The scriptures teach us those who have died in Christ will be resurrected first, at 1Thessalonians 4: 16. So these include the apostles, they sleep in death until the second presence of Jesus Christ begins, then they are resurrected. So 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says they rise first. Where do they rise from, if they're not in Hades?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred Persson said,
Where did the thief on the cross go? Paradise, which is in Third Heaven. He didn't go to hades:

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ) [/QUOTE\]

You think the thief didn't go to Hades? The scriptures teach us those who have died in Christ will be resurrected first, at 1Thessalonians 4: 16. So these include the apostles, they sleep in death until the second presence of Jesus Christ begins, then they are resurrected. So 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says they rise first. Where do they rise from, if they're not in Hades?

The dead in Third Heaven (Paradise) rise first. Christ brings them with Him, then those alive on earth are raptured/resurrected.

Its impossible these dead were in Hades because they rose before Christ's second coming from HEAVEN, they are with Him as He descends unto the earth:

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(1 Thess. 4:13-18 KJV)

 

[Barney Bright]

The dead in Third Heaven (Paradise) rise first. Christ brings them with Him, then those alive on earth are raptured/resurrected.

Its impossible these dead were in Hades because they rose before Christ's second coming from HEAVEN, they are with Him as He descends unto the earth:

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(1 Thess. 4:13-18 KJV)

First of all I disagree with you when you said some of the dead, had already been resurrected. Paul was talking about the resurrection In 1 Thessalonian 4:13-18, and I wouldn't agree that Paul was telling these people in Thessalonia that the resurrection was already going on, or that it had already happened for some, or that he was saying the resurrection would happen before the second presence of Jesus Christ.

As far as paradise is concern, I don't agree that paradise is in the third heaven. Paul At 2 Corinthians 12:1 used the term “revelations,” which suggests a revealing of what will exist in the future.

In the Bible, “heaven” can refer to the physical heavens. (Genesis 11:4; 27:28; Matthew 6:26) But “heaven” is also used in other senses. Sometimes it refers to human rulership. (Daniel 4:20-22) Or it can refer to divine rulership, such as through the Kingdom of God.(Revelation 21:1)

Paul saw "the third heaven." The Bible occasionally repeats something three times for emphasis, to show intensity, or to imply added strength. (Isaiah 6:3; Ezekiel 21:27; Revelation 4:8) So I believe that in speaking of "the third heaven" Paul was stressing a superlative, or exalted, form of rulership, meaning the Messianic Kingdom by Jesus Christ and his co-rulers. As the apostle Peter wrote, we are awaiting the “new heavens” according to God’s promise. (Peter 3:13)

I believe paradise will be right here on earth as God intended it to be, because that's where it was in the beginning. I believe that to be true because God told Adam and Eve before they sinned, to be fruitful, and multiply and fill the Earth and subdue it. So if Adam and Eve had not disobeyed God, this Earth would be filled with sinless human beings, with no one growing and dying, no one getting sick and dying, there would never have been any wars, hunger, no one homeless etc. It's true of course that the serpent caused Adam and Eve to sin, but God made a way to undo what this serpent caused when he stated what he stated at Genesis 3:15. I believe that when God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply, and fill the Earth and subdue it God was stating his purpose for mankind and planet.


I do believe the word “paradise” can mean various things: (1) In view of man’s original home, “paradise” I believe it can refer to the literal earthly Paradise that is ahead. (2) I believe It can refer to the spiritual condition that God’s people will enjoy in the new world. (3) Additionally, I believe it can refer to the blessed conditions in heaven, “the paradise of God” mentioned at Revelation 2:7

 

[Butch5]

Paradeiso = paradise = garden

 

[Alfred Persson]

First of all I disagree with you when you said some of the dead, had already been resurrected. Paul was talking about the resurrection In 1 Thessalonian 4:13-18, and I wouldn't agree that Paul was telling these people in Thessalonia that the resurrection was already going on, or that it had already happened for some, or that he was saying the resurrection would happen before the second presence of Jesus Christ.

As far as paradise is concern, I don't agree that paradise is in the third heaven. Paul At 2 Corinthians 12:1 used the term “revelations,” which suggests a revealing of what will exist in the future.

In the Bible, “heaven” can refer to the physical heavens. (Genesis 11:4; 27:28; Matthew 6:26) But “heaven” is also used in other senses. Sometimes it refers to human rulership. (Daniel 4:20-22) Or it can refer to divine rulership, such as through the Kingdom of God.(Revelation 21:1)

Paul saw "the third heaven." The Bible occasionally repeats something three times for emphasis, to show intensity, or to imply added strength. (Isaiah 6:3; Ezekiel 21:27; Revelation 4:8) So I believe that in speaking of "the third heaven" Paul was stressing a superlative, or exalted, form of rulership, meaning the Messianic Kingdom by Jesus Christ and his co-rulers. As the apostle Peter wrote, we are awaiting the “new heavens” according to God’s promise. (Peter 3:13)

I believe paradise will be right here on earth as God intended it to be, because that's where it was in the beginning. I believe that to be true because God told Adam and Eve before they sinned, to be fruitful, and multiply and fill the Earth and subdue it. So if Adam and Eve had not disobeyed God, this Earth would be filled with sinless human beings, with no one growing and dying, no one getting sick and dying, there would never have been any wars, hunger, no one homeless etc. It's true of course that the serpent caused Adam and Eve to sin, but God made a way to undo what this serpent caused when he stated what he stated at Genesis 3:15. I believe that when God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply, and fill the Earth and subdue it God was stating his purpose for mankind and planet.


I do believe the word “paradise” can mean various things: (1) In view of man’s original home, “paradise” I believe it can refer to the literal earthly Paradise that is ahead. (2) I believe It can refer to the spiritual condition that God’s people will enjoy in the new world. (3) Additionally, I believe it can refer to the blessed conditions in heaven, “the paradise of God” mentioned at Revelation 2:7

Never said that. Only Christ has been resurrected, His physical body radically changed being infused with Spirit. Don't misquote me as you do others.

Paul was very clear, those in third heaven paradise God will bring with Him, they join Jesus' army as He makes His second coming. Then all in Hades in Christ are raised up, all who repented in hell when they heard the gospel, many for the first time. Then all who are alive on earth are raised up, raptured to meet Christ in the air, join His army.

Then we all go to Armageddon to defeat the Beast and Satan's army of Nephilim. Christ and His angels do most of the work, but we will be there to watch and maybe join in.

Scripture details are like pieces of a picture puzzle, it requires critical thinking skill to put the pieces together and see which correctly fill any gaps, to reveal the picture they make.

Paul speaks of a man who went to paradise, whether in the body or out of the body he doesn't know. And there he heard heavenly things. He then says this man went to Third Heaven. Therefore, paradise is in Third Heaven or the two are the same place.

That is elementary logical deduction.. Putting the pieces together is required. Perhaps you can have "ChatGPT" explain it to you. Its free.

Lets illustrate this. "I know a man who went to NYC, and saw a show. The man went to New York State."

Therefore, NYC is in the state of New York.