Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish?

[Butch5]

And I've given you several passages which clearly state that the fire never ends. Both Jesus and John the Baptist taught that the fire is "unquenchable" (Mark 9:48, Matthew 3:12), that means no end. That's not an opinion. The Scripture does not contradict itself.

Unquenchable doesn't mean it won't end. It means it can't be put out. No man can put it out. That doesn't mean it won't burn out as the fuel is used up.

The measurements of time was specifically given in the creation week on Day 4. In the new heavens and new earth there won't be such measurements any more, so how could you determine what is the supposed "end" of your "aion"? There's an end for the "aion" of the church age, there"s an end for the "aion" of the millennial kingdom, but there's NO end for the "aion" of new heavens and new earth. "And they shall reign forever and ever," Rev. 22:5. If God is eternal, then the torment is eternal. You keep arguing that the penalty for sin is death, but death itself is cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity (Rev. 20:13-14).

Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. (Gen. 1:14-15)

That's correct. So, you admit that the aion ends. If it ends then aion doesn't mean eternity.

 

[Butch5]

And I've pointed out that the fire in literal valley of Hinnom is quenchable, the fire in the Lake of Fire is unquenchable. Jesus was figuratively using Gehenna to teach the Lake of Fire in the same sense of using a wheat field to teach the kingdom of God.

Jesus didn't teach on the Lake of Fire. Jesus taught about Gehenna. We don't hear anything about a Lake of Fire until about 60 years or so after the cross. It comes from John is a book that is full of symbolism. If one of them is symbolic it stands to reason that it's the one in the book of symbolism.

I'm not in the mood for sarcasm today.

It wasn't sarcasm. It was a legitimate question.

Jesus did tell the Sedduccees that it's different, you're in denial.

"You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven."

The Sadducees didn't believe in the Resurrection. So, they were comparing two lives. They were trying to trip Jesus up as they usually did. Jesus said the resurrected like the angels in regard to marriage.

 

[Butch5]

God says that our resurrected bodies are all about being just like the body of Jesus , indestructible & eternal .

1Jo 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

There's nothing that says the bodies are indestructible and eternal. When Jesus was resurrected He had the same body that went into the tomb. Eternal life is life that is continually received from God.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Unquenchable doesn't mean it won't end. It means it can't be put out. No man can put it out. That doesn't mean it won't burn out as the fuel is used up.

Yes it does. If it can burn out then it would be quenchable.

That's correct. So, you admit that the aion ends. If it ends then aion doesn't mean eternity.

It's not just about "aion", but WHICH aion. Jesus was referring to the second temple aion, that one did end at 70AD, but the new heavens and new earth have no end, that's eternity. You're denying the Scripture.

Jesus didn't teach on the Lake of Fire. Jesus taught about Gehenna. We don't hear anything about a Lake of Fire until about 60 years or so after the cross. It comes from John is a book that is full of symbolism. If one of them is symbolic it stands to reason that it's the one in the book of symbolism.

The bible is consistent, Jesus was using Gehenna to figuratively to describe the Lake of Fire in the same sense of using the lost sheep, coin and son to describe a repentant sinner, a wheat field and a wedding feast to describe the kingdom of heaven. If it were the literal Gehenna the fire would be quenchable.

Also, John the Baptist didn't mention Gehenna, but he did mention the same unquenchable fire, what was he talking about? Did he make it up?

 

[Butch5]

Yes, it is. And I showed why.

On hte contrary. You just tried to avoid the issue.

No, the idea of eternal, conscious torment upon the decease of the physical body is derived from the teaching of Christ himself. See Luke 16:19-31, Matthew 25:46, Matthew 13:49-50, Mark 9:43-48.

No, it isn't the Bible doesn't teach that man can live apart from the Body, so Jesus wouldn't be teaching something contrary to Scripture. He especially wouldn't be teaching Greek Philosophical idea.

Yes, I can claim it - because it is what the Bible clearly teaches.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.'

Matthew 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Luke 13:26-28
26 "Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets';
27 and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from me, all you evildoers.'
28 "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.

Matthew 8:12
12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Luke 16:23-26
23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and you are tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Each of these passages in which Jesus is teaching on the punishment of hell clearly indicate separation as a feature of that punishment. So, yes, I can "prove" from Scripture that the "second death" in hell entails separation from God and is, I believe, the end, not of being, but of all well-being, as in the case of the Rich Man in Christ's parable in Luke 16.

These don't prove your point. Separation from God is a result of death, not the definition of it. A person who dies is separated from everything, not just God. However, If you look up the definition of death. you won't find as a definition separation from family, or friends, God. The only separation in the definition of death is separation from life.

No day is exactly like another. Days vary from each other widely in temperature, moisture content, air movement, cloudiness, even duration. So, no, a "second day" is not "just like the first." Far from it, often.

They're both days.

??? If a second death is possible for a person, what are we to make of what the first death means for him or her? Clearly, the first death has not meant annihilation, the end of all existence, which is why a second death is possible. The first death has involved separation - the soul from the body, most importantly - but separation from the "living" on earth, too. In this respect, in respect to separation, the "second death" is like the first, the person enduring the "second death" by being separated from God, the Source of All Good Things, and thus living forever in a condition devoid of all well-being, of all goodness, love, grace and divine light.

There can't be a soul without a body, thus, a person cannot live apart from the body. As such, there can be not punishment apart from the living.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 2:7.

Moses recorded the creation of man. God created a body from the dust. He infused that body with "His" breath. Those two combined to become a living soul. Thus a soul consists of a body of dust and the breath of God. There is nothing else in man. We are told that when the man dies, the breath returns to God and the body returns to the dust. There is nothing left.

I was pointing out that aion or ainoios do not always mean "an age." In the parallelism of Matthew 25:46, this is certainly the case. "Eternal" or "everlasting" cannot mean "an age" since this would limit the duration of the life of the righteous, which life the Bible plainly and repeatedly affirms is without end. If the parallel of the verse is to be preserved (as it ought to be), the punishment of the wicked must be unending, also.

Flip it around. If aion means an age, then it cannot be eternal. So, if the life is eternal that must be determined from Scripture without using the word aion. You said the Bible repeatedly affirms the life is without end. Can you show me where it repeatedly affirms this without using the word aion. Since this is the word under discussion it can't used to prove the live is eternal.

There is Scripture that affirms that the life is eternal without using the word aion. what this shows us is that there is a aion that doesn't end. The life is eternal because it doesn't end, not because it's called aionios life. Aion means an age.

Regarding the punishment it is eternal. Those who are thrown into the Lake of Fire will die as second time and they will be dead for eternity. That's the aionios punishment.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

It wasn't sarcasm. It was a legitimate question.

Then it's already answered. "He who has an ear, let him hear."

The Sadducees didn't believe in the Resurrection. So, they were comparing two lives. They were trying to trip Jesus up as they usually did. Jesus said the resurrected like the angels in regard to marriage.

In regard to marriage, angels don't marry, neither do resurrected saints, because life would be everlasting and there's no more need for reproduction. But in this mortal life, people do marry and reproduce, so it is different, that's the point. The Sadduccees wouldn't have "compared" two lives since they didn't believe the existence of afterlife in the first place.

 

[Consecrated Life]

There's nothing that says the bodies are indestructible and eternal. When Jesus was resurrected He had the same body that went into the tomb. Eternal life is life that is continually received from God.

What is your understanding of what our resurrection bodies will be like ?

 

[Butch5]

Yes it does. If it can burn out then it would be quenchable.

quench

VERB

1. satisfy (one's thirst) by drinking.
2. extinguish (a fire):
   "firemen hauled on hoses in a desperate bid to quench the flames"

It's not just about "aion", but WHICH aion. Jesus was referring to the second temple aion, that one did end at 70AD, but the new heavens and new earth have no end, that's eternity. You're denying the Scripture.

It doesn't matter which one it is. if it ends it's not eternal. Thus aion does not mean eternity. Can there be an age the doesn't end? Sure. Would that age be eternal? Sure. However, that doesn't change the definition of age or aoin. An age or aion can be any length of time. If it doesn't end it's eternal. However, aion still doesn't mean eternal, it means an age. This is the problem, people want to read eternity back into the word aion and it makes for a whole lot of prblems and it's the basis for claiming that the punishment at the end is eternal. He's just a sample.

28 And it shall be Aaron's and his sons' by a statute for ever from the children of Israel: for it is an heave offering: and it shall be an heave offering from the children of Israel of the sacrifice of their peace offerings, even their heave offering unto the LORD. (Exod. 29:28 KJV)

This is a statute of the Mosaic Law. The translators have translated olam/aion in the Septuagint as forever. Are the statutes and Laws of the Mosaic Law forever? Not according to the apostle Paul.

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (Eph. 2:13-15 KJV)

Paul said that Christ abolished the Law of commandments contained in ordinances. That's the Mosaic Law. So, Paul said it ended and the English translators say it's eternal. Who's right? Paul or the translators. You see, the problem is that because the translators are trying to force aion to mean eternity or forever, they are forced to make these poor translations. There are many passages just like this where the English translons have said that things in the Mosaic Law are forever. Yet the apostle tells us they ended.

The bible is consistent, Jesus was using Gehenna to figuratively to describe the Lake of Fire in the same sense of using the lost sheep, coin and son to describe a repentant sinner, a wheat field and a wedding feast to describe the kingdom of heaven. If it were the literaly Gehenna the fire would be quenchable.

It's the other way around. The Lake of Fire is symbolic of Gehenna.

Also, John the Baptist didn't mention Gehenna, but he did mention the same unquenchable fire, what was he talking about? Did he make it up?

He did mention unquenchable that is mentioned in Isaiah 66. It's the same unquenchable fire that Jesus called Gehenna.

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (Mk. 9:43 KJV)

The word translated hell in this passage is Gehenna.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

quench

VERB

1. satisfy (one's thirst) by drinking.
2. extinguish (a fire):
   "firemen hauled on hoses in a desperate bid to quench the flames"

Except nobody is going to extinguish it. Quite the opposite, Jesus will fan the fire to ensure that it burns forever.

"His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (Matt. 3:12)

It doesn't matter which one it is. if it ends it's not eternal. Thus aion does not mean eternity.

Yes it does matter, new heavens and new earth have no end, Rev. 22:5. You're in denial.

It's the other way around. The Lake of Fire is symbolic of Gehenna.

No, Gehenna is symbolic of the Lake of Fire. Symbols are visible, familiar and recognizable images, you use those to describe mysterious things that are invisible, unfamiliar and unrecognizable.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

He did mention unquenchable that is mentioned in Isaiah 66. It's the same unquenchable fire that Jesus called Gehenna.

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (Mk. 9:43 KJV)

The word translated hell in this passage is Gehenna.

Is. 66:24 confirms eternality, for "their worm does NOT die and their fire does NOT quench," and the setting is new heavens and new earth, Is. 66:22.

 

[Butch5]

What is your understanding of what our resurrection bodies will be like ?

They'll be the same bodies we have now. Just like now, we will receive life from God. Adam had eternal life in the garden. He would eat from the Tree of Life. When he was kicked out of the garden he lost access to the Tree of Life and as such was subject to death. Jesus said that He would give access to the Tree of life to believers. If we were inherently immortal we wouldn't need access to the Tree of Life.

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Re 2:7.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Re 22:2–14.

And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Re 22:1–17.

Ezekiel prophesied about these trees and this river.

Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar. 2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side. 3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ancles. 4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins. 5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.
6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river. 7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other. 8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed. 9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh. 10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many. 11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt. 12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth anew fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and zthe leaf thereof for medicine.


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Eze 47:1–12.

I believe it's through this that God gives life to those who receive ternal life in the Resurrection. The Bible also speaks of spiritual aspects that are attributed to the body,

 

[Alfred Persson]

No, this one is better..
Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The questions is, what is the punishment, everlasting life?

"These" are not "all the wicked", they are the Tares in the church.

So you took that out of context.

If none of the wicked are annihilated, why is this written:

They are dead, they will not live; They are deceased, they will not rise. Therefore You have punished and destroyed them, And made all their memory to perish. (Isa. 26:14 NKJ)

But I agree, those guilty of eternal sins will suffer eternally.

 

[Butch5]

Except nobody is going to extinguish it. Quite the opposite, Jesus will fan the fire to ensure that it burns forever.

"His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (Matt. 3:12)

Which is what I said. No one will put it out. That doesn't mean will never go out. Jeremiah prophesied about this place and said it will one day be made holy to the Lord.

Yes it does matter, new heavens and new earth have no end, Rev. 22:5. You're in denial.

I doesn't matter. If an aion can end then the definition of aion cannot be eternal. No, I'm not in denial. I've explained how it works. The final aion doesn't end. But, that doesn't change the definition of aion.

No, Gehenna is symbolic of the Lake of Fire. Symbols are visible, familiar and recognizable images, you use those to describe mysterious things that are invisible, unfamiliar and unrecognizable.

And Gehenna is visible. It's a real place. It exists outside of Jerusalem. Where is the Lake of Fire? Can you see it?

 

[Butch5]

Is. 66:24 confirms eternality, for "their worm does NOT die and their fire does NOT quench," and the setting is new heavens and new earth, Is. 66:22.

The worm has nothing to do with people. Besides, look at what burning in the passage. It's corpses, not the spirit/souls/ or living people suffering eternal torment. It's corpses, dead bodies. That's the second death.

 

[Consecrated Life]

They'll be the same bodies we have now. Just like now, we will receive life from God. Adam had eternal life in the garden. He would eat from the Tree of Life. When he was kicked out of the garden he lost access to the Tree of Life and as such was subject to death. Jesus said that He would give access to the Tree of life to believers. If we were inherently immortal we wouldn't need access to the Tree of Life.

Are we going to be naked like Adam when we are picking our fruit to stay alive ?

Gen 2:25
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

 

[Butch5]

Are we going to be naked like Adam when we are picking our fruit to stay alive ?

Gen 2:25
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Scripture doesn't say

 

[Consecrated Life]

Scripture doesn't say

You said we were going to be like Adam, picking fruit from the same tree .remember ?
We won't be naked and afraid will we ?

Gen 2:25
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

 

[Alfred Persson]

The worm has nothing to do with people. Besides, look at what burning in the passage. It's corpses, not the spirit/souls/ or living people suffering eternal torment. It's corpses, dead bodies. That's the second death.

Why, then...did Jesus say the corpses 'WEEP AND GNASH TEETH" if the wicked soul is not trapped within it?

41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 "and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matt. 13:41-42 NKJ)

Gehenna affects body and soul, not body only:

'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna. (Matt. 10:28 YLT)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Which is what I said. No one will put it out. That doesn't mean will never go out. Jeremiah prophesied about this place and said it will one day be made holy to the Lord.

Nonetheless Is. 66:24 states it will not go out. Again, Scripture doesn't contradict itself.

I doesn't matter. If an aion can end then the definition of aion cannot be eternal. No, I'm not in denial. I've explained how it works. The final aion doesn't end. But, that doesn't change the definition of aion.

It does matter, because since the final aion doesn't end, then the forment in the Lake of Fire doesn't end, this much is confirmed in Is. 66:22-24. The English word "eon" originated from this word, and it's defined as "an immeasurably or indefinitely long period of time".

And Gehenna is visible. It's a real place. It exists outside of Jerusalem. Where is the Lake of Fire? Can you see it?

No, that's why Gehenna was used to symbolize the Lake of Fire, not the other way around.

The worm has nothing to do with people. Besides, look at what burning in the passage. It's corpses, not the spirit/souls/ or living people suffering eternal torment. It's corpses, dead bodies. That's the second death.

Then why does the torment of worm and fire never stop in Is. 66:24? Besides, death itself is cast into the Lake of Fire to burn forever, Rev. 20:14, therefore second death is meant to be forever. That's not my opinion or my interpretation, that's what the Scripture plainly states.

 

[Alfred Persson]

...
Then why does the torment of worm and fire never stop in Is. 66:24? Besides, death itself is cast into the Lake of Fire to burn forever, Rev. 20:14, therefore second death is meant to be forever. That's not my opinion or my interpretation, that's what the Scripture plainly states.

"Death" cannot be "personalized" in the context, its a realm containing souls just as Hades and the Sea are:

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev. 20:13-14 NKJ)

A "realm" or "place" cannot suffer death because its not alive to begin with.

The second death is symbolic of a death from which there is no return, hence the symbolism means Death, Hades and even the Sea return no more.

Notice, no sea in the New Heavens and earth:

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. (Rev. 21:1 NKJ)


But I agree with you, the symbol of the undying worm implies eternal torment, the body misused to communicate wicked pleasure to the soul within it, now communicates the Holy Wrath of an Offended God, causing "weeping and gnashing of teeth".