Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish?

[Butch5]

The only problem is that you're ignoring the biblical doctrine of resurrection, not just the righteous, but also the wicked. There's the "first resurrection" at the beginning of the millennial reign, then there's the second resurrection at the end of the millennial reign, and then there's the white throne judgement and the "second death" for the wicked, it's all in Rev. 20. Everlasting life means no seacond death for the righteous, and "perish" means perished from God, eternal separation from him and eternal suffering in the Lake of Fire.

I'm not ignoring it. I posted about it in another post. I agree with everything you've said here except your redefining of the word perish. Separation from God is not the definition of perish. The word perish means to die. It means loss of life. It's simple enough to look it up. The idea of separation from God is just trying to make the Scriptures fit with this immortal soul idea.

 

[Butch5]

You've got it wrong. Eternal torment is the penalty for choosing darkness over light, choosing Satan over Jesus. The only sin can't be forgiven is rejection of God's forgiveness. Make no mistake, God sends nobody to hell, all who end up in the Lake of Fire end up in there willingly as they believe Satan is God and hell is heaven.

Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter! (Is 5:20)

You say I've got it wrong, yet you've not posted a single verse of Scripture to show how. Where does Scripture say that the penalty for sin is eternal conscious torment?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Nothing is wrong about using it as a teaching tool. That's not the question. The question is did Jesus use it as a teaching tool or was He speaking literally? Given it's history and the prophecy about it why would one take figuratively?

Jesus used a lot of things the Israelites were familiar with as teaching tools. Heaven was not necessarily a wheat field or a drag net or a huge mansion with many rooms, Jesus was using all of those as teaching tools. Those who have an ear to hear will understand what the master was really teaching.

Ok. What is the spirit?

The third person of the Godhead.

Ok, you understand it literally. Jesus said to His disciples 'it was better to enter life maimed than to go into Gehenna where the fire is not quenched. He indicates that they could go into Gehenna. He didn't say a place life Gehenna. If it was a teaching tool it would seem Jesus would make clear that He's not talking about the literal Gehenna. I don't see a reason to take it figuratively.

Why would he? One purpose of speaking in parables and analogies is to obscure:

Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. (Matt. 13:10-13)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I'm not ignoring it. I posted about it in another post. I agree with everything you've said here except your redefining of the word perish. Separation from God is not the definition of perish. The word perish means to die. It means loss of life. It's simple enough to look it up. The idea of separation from God is just trying to make the Scriptures fit with this immortal soul idea.

Yes, it means to die, but there's the first death and the second death, perish is referring to the first death, not the second. Body perishes, spirit doesn't.

You say I've got it wrong, yet you've not posted a single verse of Scripture to show how. Where does Scripture say that the penalty for sin is eternal conscious torment?

Go read and study Rev. 20. Eternal torment is not penalty, it's natural consequence for walking down that broad way that leads to destruction, Matt. 7:13-14.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus used a lot of things the Israelites were familiar with as teaching tools. Heaven was not necessarily a wheat field or a drag net or a huge mansion with many rooms, Jesus was using all of those as teaching tools. Those who have an ear to hear will understand what the master was really teaching.

Yes, He did. However, He explained them literally to His disciples. It was to His disciples that He said it was better to enter life maimed than to go into the fire of Gehenna

The third person of the Godhead.

Are you suggesting that wicked souls consist of the body and the Holy Spirit?

Why would he? One purpose of speaking in parables and analogies is to obscure:

Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. (Matt. 13:10-13)

Yes, it's true that the parable were to obscure. They were to obscure the meaning to the Jews. they were not to obscure it to the disciples.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. (Matt. 13:10-11 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

Yes, it means to die, but there's the first death and the second death, perish is referring to the first death, not the second. Body perishes, spirit doesn't.

In order for something to the second, it has to be like the first. If a second person walks through the door, it's a person not a dog. A dog coming through the door would not be a second person. It has to be a person, like the first person. Thus, the second death, must be a death like the first death. If it's different it's not the second one.

Go read and study Rev. 20. Eternal torment is not penalty, it's natural consequence for walking down that broad way that leads to destruction, Matt. 7:13-14.

I'm familiar with Rev 20. It speaks of the Beast, the false prophet and the devil, being tormented forever and ever. However, when it gets down to the judgment of men it says those not found in the book are cast into the Lake of Fire which is the second death. So, the men die. There's also a translation error. The phrase "forever and ever:" is mistranslated. It's properly translated, unto the ages of the ages. The Greek word aion doesn't mean eternal. It can't. Jesus and the apostles all speak of the end of the aion. Jesus and Paul also speak of an aion to come. How can eternity end? It can't. Eternity, by definition, is unending. Thus, something that ends cannot be eternal. Also, if eternity never ends, there can't be another eternity after it. So the beast, the false prophet, and the devil, will suffer for a prescribed period of time that God has determined.

Revelation is a book of symbolism. The Lake of Fire is symbolic of Gehenna. They are descriptions of the same place. The prophet Jeremiah prophesied of a time when Gehenna would be restored and made holy to the Lord. So, we know it doesn't burn for eternity.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes, He did. However, He explained them literally to His disciples. It was to His disciples that He said it was better to enter life maimed than to go into the fire of Gehenna

Literal fire in literal Gehenna is quenchable. THe unquenchable fire is only in the Lake of fire.

Are you suggesting that wicked souls consist of the body and the Holy Spirit?

The word "spirit" literally means breath, all are born with their first breath. However, only the righteous are born again according to the Holy Spirit, the wicked are possessed by evil spirits - spiritual hosts of wickedness, Eph. 6:12.

Yes, it's true that the parable were to obscure. They were to obscure the meaning to the Jews. they were not to obscure it to the disciples.

And yet Jesus still repeatedly used such analogies in his private sessions with his disciples. He did speak figuratively to his disciples. The difference is that his disciples got it, others didn't.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

In order for something to the second, it has to be like the first. If a second person walks through the door, it's a person not a dog. A dog coming through the door would not be a second person. It has to be a person, like the first person. Thus, the second death, must be a death like the first death. If it's different it's not the second one.

None of these is taught in the bible. In the first death the moretal body is already returned to dust, how could the dust die again in the same way? Does death of the maggots that eat the corpse count as the second death?

I'm familiar with Rev 20. It speaks of the Beast, the false prophet and the devil, being tormented forever and ever. However, when it gets down to the judgment of men it says those not found in the book are cast into the Lake of Fire which is the second death. So, the men die. There's also a translation error. The phrase "forever and ever:" is mistranslated. It's properly translated, unto the ages of the ages. The Greek word aion doesn't mean eternal. It can't. Jesus and the apostles all speak of the end of the aion. Jesus and Paul also speak of an aion to come. How can eternity end? It can't. Eternity, by definition, is unending. Thus, something that ends cannot be eternal. Also, if eternity never ends, there can't be another eternity after it. So the beast, the false prophet, and the devil, will suffer for a prescribed period of time that God has determined.

Revelation is a book of symbolism. The Lake of Fire is symbolic of Gehenna. They are descriptions of the same place. The prophet Jeremiah prophesied of a time when Gehenna would be restored and made holy to the Lord. So, we know it doesn't burn for eternity.

That's jsut your unbelief, and it often starts with discrediting the bible and rejecting its authority. NOw your only argument is that the bible's wrong, you're right.

 

[Consecrated Life]

You're creating a straw man. I never said, " death with no future consciousness is considered by one and all to be the worst possible outcome." I said death is the highest form of punishment we have. "

So you don't believe the Creator of the universe has any form of punishment higher than what " we have " ?
Really ?
This penchant you have for limiting the power of God in accordance to your own obsession to the flesh
says a great deal more about your own spiritual condition than perhaps you realize you are telling on yourself.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I'm familiar with Rev 20. It speaks of the Beast, the false prophet and the devil, being tormented forever and ever. However, when it gets down to the judgment of men it says those not found in the book are cast into the Lake of Fire which is the second death. So, the men die. There's also a translation error. The phrase "forever and ever:" is mistranslated. It's properly translated, unto the ages of the ages. The Greek word aion doesn't mean eternal. It can't. Jesus and the apostles all speak of the end of the aion. Jesus and Paul also speak of an aion to come. How can eternity end? It can't. Eternity, by definition, is unending. Thus, something that ends cannot be eternal. Also, if eternity never ends, there can't be another eternity after it. So the beast, the false prophet, and the devil, will suffer for a prescribed period of time that God has determined.

Revelation is a book of symbolism. The Lake of Fire is symbolic of Gehenna. They are descriptions of the same place. The prophet Jeremiah prophesied of a time when Gehenna would be restored and made holy to the Lord. So, we know it doesn't burn for eternity.

Look, man, it's gonna be eternal because time doesn't exist in new heavens and new earth. In the creation week, God made the sun, moon and stars as indicators of time -

"Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years." (Gen. 1:14-19)

In New Jerusalem, though, there's no more sun or moon, no day or night, only the eternal light of the Lamb. And since life is everlasting, no aging, disease or death either, that is eternity.

"And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there." (Rev. 21:22-25)

 

[Whatever]

As I've pointed out, aion is mistranslated.

However you want to translate it, the punishment of the wicked lasts as long as the eternal life of the righteous. It uses the same word for both groups.

 

[Butch5]

However you want to translate it, the punishment of the wicked lasts as long as the eternal life of the righteous. It uses the same word for both groups.

Yeah, but it's the punishment not the punishing. The condemnation is age enduring, not the action.

 

[Butch5]

Look, man, it's gonna be eternal because time doesn't exist in new heavens and new earth. In the creation week, God made the sun, moon and stars as indicators of time -

"Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years." (Gen. 1:14-19)

In New Jerusalem, though, there's no more sun or moon, no day or night, only the eternal light of the Lamb. And since life is everlasting, no aging, disease or death either, that is eternity.

"And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there." (Rev. 21:22-25)

You still are only giving me opinions. You've explained how you understand those passages. That doesn't necessitate that your understanding is correct. Again, there is nothing in Scripture that says the penalty for sin is eternal torment. The fact that there is not a single passage of Scripture that says eternal torment is the penalty for sin, should be a major red flag for everyone who's making this claim. We have thousands of years of communication from God in the Scripture and not once are we told that the penalty is eternal torment. Everyone in the Bible who speaks of the penalty for sin says it's death or perishing, which is death.

 

[Butch5]

So you don't believe the Creator of the universe has any form of punishment higher than what " we have " ?
Really ?
This penchant you have for limiting the power of God in accordance to your own obsession to the flesh
says a great deal more about your own spiritual condition than perhaps you realize you are telling on yourself.

Ah, the final flails. The Ad hominem. If you can't beat the argument, go after the debater. This is a logical fallacy my friend. I never said what the creator of the universe has. I simply said, He said the penalty was death.

 

[Butch5]

None of these is taught in the bible. In the first death the moretal body is already returned to dust, how could the dust die again in the same way? Does death of the maggots that eat the corpse count as the second death?

The word anastasis, that is translated resurrection, means to stand again. The Resurrection is the resurrection of the flesh. That body that died is raised back to life. At the second death it is destroyed again. Thus, the term, second death. The same person has died twice.

That's jsut your unbelief, and it often starts with discrediting the bible and rejecting its authority. NOw your only argument is that the bible's wrong, you're right.

I'm in unbelief because I disagree with you? Does that mean your understanding is God's word? As I pointed out, the passage only speaks of three individuals suffering torment "forever and ever" which I pointed out is mistranslated. I'm going to go out on limb here and say that if Jesus and the apostles say something ends, it ends.

 

[Butch5]

Literal fire in literal Gehenna is quenchable. THe unquenchable fire is only in the Lake of fire.

Gehenna is the Lake of Fire.

The word "spirit" literally means breath, all are born with their first breath. However, only the righteous are born again according to the Holy Spirit, the wicked are possessed by evil spirits - spiritual hosts of wickedness, Eph. 6:12.

Yes, it does. And we see in Genesis 2:7 that the only spirit in man is the breath of God.

And yet Jesus still repeatedly used such analogies in his private sessions with his disciples. He did speak figuratively to his disciples. The difference is that his disciples got it, others didn't.

They got it because He explained it to them.

 

[Tulipbee]

Well lets take a look at what the Bible says will happen to the Wicked...

Job 21:30 King James Version (KJV)
"30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath."

Psalm 37:10 King James Version (KJV)
"10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."

Psalm 37:20 King James Version (KJV)
"20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

Psalm 37:28 King James Version (KJV)
"28 For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 37:38 King James Version (KJV)
"38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 73:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
"17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction."

Psalm 92:7 King James Version (KJV)
"7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"

Psalm 104:35 King James Version (KJV)
"35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the Lord, O my soul. Praise ye the Lord."

Psalm 145:20 King James Version (KJV)
"20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy."

Proverbs 2:22 King James Version (KJV)
"22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it."

Nahum 1:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
"9 What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry."

Malachi 4:1King James Version (KJV)
"4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
"8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

2 Peter 2:6 King James Version (KJV)
"6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

2 Peter 2:9-12 King James Version (KJV)
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Peter 3:7 King James Version (KJV)
"7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

2 Peter 3:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
"9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. "

Revelation 20:9 King James Version (KJV)
"9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Revelation 21:8 King James Version (KJV)
"8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

From a Calvinist viewpoint, the verses you provided underscore the destiny of the wicked as ordained by God, as discussed in John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion.

Job 21:30 - The wicked are reserved for the day of destruction, demonstrating God's sovereignty over judgment.

Psalm 37:10, 20, 28, 38 - The wicked shall perish, and their end is destruction, while the righteous are preserved by the Lord.

Psalm 73:17-18, 92:7, 104:35, 145:20 - The destiny of the wicked is destruction, contrasting with the preservation of the righteous.

Proverbs 2:22, Nahum 1:9-10 - The wicked will be cut off and consumed, with no room for their wickedness to rise again.

Malachi 4:1 - The day of judgment will consume the wicked, leaving them with neither root nor branch.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, 2 Peter 2:6, 9-12, 3:7, 9-10, Revelation 20:9, 21:8 - The wicked face everlasting destruction and punishment, culminating in the lake of fire, the second death.

These passages affirm the Calvinist belief in the sovereignty of God's judgment and the ultimate destiny of the wicked as determined by His divine will.

Sources:
- John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion
- The Holy Bible (King James Version)

Disclaimer: This response is generated with AI assistance and reflects a Calvinist perspective. Further sources and references are available upon request.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Ah, the final flails. The Ad hominem. If you can't beat the argument, go after the debater. This is a logical fallacy my friend. I never said what the creator of the universe has. I simply said, He said the penalty was death.

Please finish then ?
How is God's penalty of death different from our " Highest Penalty " of death ?

 

[for_his_glory]

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Re 20:4–6.

We read back in Rev 6:9-11 about the souls under the altar waiting to be avenged. The fulfilling of this will have come at this time of Christ coming as their fellow servants have all died a martyr’s death and final judgements are made (Great White Throne Judgement). Those who are sitting on symbolic thrones are all those who have died a martyr’s death being servants of God as now they reign with Christ in judgment over the nations.

The rest of the dead are those of the other part of the resurrection in John 5:28-29 that have been raised to damnation whose names are not found written in the Lamb’s book of life. The second death are those who rejected Christ and had no faith in God being Spiritually dead that are raised from their graves, Ephesians 2:1-10. Scripture never teaches two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29; 6:40, and a second death being that of Spiritual death and hell being the grave are cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14, 15 as they had no Spiritual power over death. There are two separate judgments just like their are two types of death being literal and Spiritual, but only one resurrection as everything from Rev 19-20 happens on the last day that has no ending. Those who are priest of God and will reign with Him are those of the Spiritual rebirth and indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[for_his_glory]

You're giving me dictionary definitions from the same people who translate aion as eternal.

What I am giving you is how one word can have so many different definitions between the Hebrew, Greek and English, but it's all in the full context of what is being taught in the whole Bible and not just one verse. These are my understandings by how I study scripture with scripture, not teacher with teacher, or religion with religion. I never ask anyone to believe me, but to at least take the scriptures I give and study them for themselves.