Another Santa Thread - but Some Serious Questions

[Mike]

Quickly I'll preface... I've always celebrated Christmas, my kids were brought up believing in Santa :shocked!(and they're pretty grounded in their faith, believe it or not :yes), and we put up the "Santa" decorations.

That said, I have a serious question for my fellow believers that also engage in Christmas. Can we all agree that Satan uses whatever means to distract us from Jesus? His evil can be as blatant as terrorism or as innocent as... Santa. (??)

We don't concern ourselves with the deviations from our faith, because we have the ability to separate it from "Santa". It causes us no conflict to have fun with Santa because, always on our mind is the reminder of the Birth of our Savior.

That said, when you hear these verses, does it give you pause?

Romans 14:21 "It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall."

1 Corinthians 8:13 "Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother or sister to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause them to fall."

Mark 9
"<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-24581">42</sup> “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-24582">43</sup> If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-24584">45</sup> And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-24585">[46]</sup> <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-24586">47</sup> And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-24587">48</sup> where “‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-24588">49</sup> Everyone will be salted with fire.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-24589">50</sup> “Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with each other.â€

Okay... so when we celebrate Christmas and do the Santa thing, do we contribute to causing our brothers and sisters in Christ who aren't as grounded (because I'm all that :D) to stumble? Do we influence or add to their blurred focus on Christ? We may be fine separating the two, but are our neighbors?

 

[Igor]

Mike, I think we have to remember that God looks at our hearts and knows more about what we do than we ourselves even know. If you take those verses literally at face value, we would pretty much have to starve ourselves to death while being isolated away from everyone else so that there would be no possibility that someone might use our actions as an excuse to sin. People, especially Christians looking for excuses to sin, are very good at claiming that someone else caused them to do it!

I had a lengthy discussion with a very well studied friend on this very subject last year. These verses are referring to purposely doing these things knowing that there is a good chance it may cause the specific person you are with to sin. For example, being a drunk is against scripture. (Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery... Eph. 5:18 in part) So, if I am having dinner with a Christian that I know is prone to drinking too much, Romans 14:21 advises me not to tempt him by drinking in front of him. This would be an act done on purpose, knowing there was a good chance of it causing him to stumble on his way to sobriety. But it does not require me to always refrain from drinking wine (or from doing the other things listed) because of the slim chance that the person I am with, unkown to me, will fall into some type of sin because of it.

Even the word "causes" in Mark 9:42 (From the Greek "skandalizō") implies something done on purpose, not an accident or unforeseen coincidence. So, unless you have somehow decorated for Christmas with the intent of causing someone to sin, I don't believe these verses apply to you. The very fact that you are even concerned about this is evidence that you are not doing anything against these verses.

 

[Adstar]

Quickly I'll preface... I've always celebrated Christmas, my kids were brought up believing in Santa :shocked!(and they're pretty grounded in their faith, believe it or not :yes), and we put up the "Santa" decorations.

That said, I have a serious question for my fellow believers that also engage in Christmas. Can we all agree that Satan uses whatever means to distract us from Jesus? His evil can be as blatant as terrorism or as innocent as... Santa. (??)

We don't concern ourselves with the deviations from our faith, because we have the ability to separate it from "Santa". It causes us no conflict to have fun with Santa because, always on our mind is the reminder of the Birth of our Savior.

That said, when you hear these verses, does it give you pause?

Romans 14:21 "It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall."

1 Corinthians 8:13 "Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother or sister to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause them to fall."

Mark 9
"<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-24581">42</sup> “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-24582">43</sup> If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-24584">45</sup> And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-24585">[46]</sup> <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-24586">47</sup> And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-24587">48</sup> where “‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-24588">49</sup> Everyone will be salted with fire.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-24589">50</sup> “Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with each other.â€

Okay... so when we celebrate Christmas and do the Santa thing, do we contribute to causing our brothers and sisters in Christ who aren't as grounded (because I'm all that :D) to stumble? Do we influence or add to their blurred focus on Christ? We may be fine separating the two, but are our neighbors?

Santa <--- note the letters then look a the next word.

Satan <---

See a pattern here?



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Strangelove]

Santa <--- note the letters then look a the next word.

Satan <---

See a pattern here?



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Look at you're name >>> Adstar.

Reverse the letters >> RatSDA. (??)

Rodent Adventist intruder!!!

Just kiddin bud. And...yes....I'm following you around.

Doc. (CoD)

 

[handy]

Mike,

I think that the thing these verses show us is how important communication is between the brethren. We just really need to be talking with each other and knowing each other. Then, if we invite someone over, and we know that they truly see Santa as sinful, we can either put the Santa decorations away, or at least have conversation with them about it, exhorting them that, if they are uncomfortable with it, they should abstain from it.

I remember a long time ago, way back when VCR's were first available for people to rent, and one lugged this huge machine with all these wires around to have a "movie" night, a couple of the guys from my church got one and they rented a gruesome movie about these people deep in the woods in a cabin which get killed one by one...you know the type. Obviously the guys had freedom to watch the movie, as did most of the rest of us. But, one guy, once he saw what kind of movie it was, rebuked us for watching it, saying that it was of Satan and that we were participating in sin by watching it. Well, I'm not sure how many of us agreed with his personal view on it, but you can be sure that we pulled the movie out and played a game of Trivial Pursuit instead, just so that we wouldn't compromise him. I think the guys watched the movie later, after the rest of us left before returning it...and there was no reason for them not to. But, out of respect to our responsibility towards the "weaker" brother, of course we pulled it when we knew it bothered him.

If I brought someone into my house and found out once they were there that they felt participating in Christmas was sin, it would be a little too hard to "un-decorate", but I would certainly be sensitive and listen to them and talk over these things and exhort them to remain true to their conviction until such a time they have freedom in it.

If I knew in advance that a guest coming in had a real issue with Christmas, yes, I would talk it over with him and ask if it would cause him to sin to be sitting in my living room with the tree, the Santa bear and the Nativities and all the rest of the decorations. If he told me that yes, it would bother him very much, I would put everything away for the time of the visit, I really would.

But, we need to have the conversation.

 

[Mike]

Thanks for the responses. I'm not overly concerned by this, but it did give me pause to think about it.

I'm not talking about situations where other Christians object to Santa, and we have them over to our decorated home. I'm talking about participating in the process that diverts others' attention away from Christ. If we believe that evil is scheming to draw the attention of His children from him, could we say that we are helping the cause (in general) by participating?

I didn't create this thread to discuss whether celebrating Christmas or Santa is evil. That discussion has been done in other threads. If someone is here to state their case that it is all evil, I'll ask you to avoid the inclination to be redundant here.

 

[handy]

Your question is sort of subtle, but if I'm finaly understanding it, I would say then it is all in how one handles things.

Santa can be a springboard to digging far more deeply into Christmas. I have shared the gospel with countless children using Santa. One family at the day-care I worked at was Sikh. They fully embraced all the secular aspects of the American Christmas season. Even though they had their kids at a Christian school, they were far more resistant to the Nativity story. But, Santa was OK...so Santa was an avenue to talk about Christmas in a way they could accept. And, so we did...and the gospel was still shared. The following year, then they embraced all aspects of Christmas. The Sikhs seem to be a people that truly enjoy celebrations...I know the cousins of these particular kids had been in American for a few more years, and they fully immersed themselves into all the celebrations here in America. By the end of a few years, all the kids were fully conversant with the gospel and I can honestly say that the Santa story was a help, not a hinderance to this.

I keep thinking of Paul on Mars Hill at the idol of the unknown god...he didn't rail against idoltry, he used it to springboard into talking about Christ. How much easier with Santa, which does come down from Christian roots (St. Nicholas)?

 

[Mike]

Your question is sort of subtle

= "Mike, you're not making any sense." I agree. :D

By the way, this is probably a dumb question. What is "Sikh"? I thought is was an acronym for a denomination or religion, but I'm thinking it's a nationality?

I'm going to try this one more time, and then I'll let this rest. In general, over-all, community wide, with people we don't even talk to... Are we adding to the distraction of others from Christ by decorating and participating in the secular traditions of Santa? Again, I'm not feeling personally led to refrain from it, because it doesn't distract me. I'm not banging my head with guilt.

 

[handy]

"Mike, you're not making any sense."

Now, I was trying to be nice!

Sikhism is an Indian religion (India, not Native American) that is based in a belief of one immortal god, as opposed to the mostly polytheistic religions of India. There is a very large Sikh community in the area of California where I'm from.

As for the general distraction of the world away from Christ...the way I see it, Satan and the world will always find ways to be distracted from Christ...our job is to use whatever means we can to bring the light of the gospel back to the world. I guess since I worked with children for so many years, I find Santa to be a wonderful secular tool to seque back to the gospel.

At any rate, I'm not hatin' the jolly man in red. :xmas

 

[Mike]

At any rate, I'm not hatin' the jolly man in red. :xmas

Neither am I.


View attachment 1690

 

[pjt]

= "
I'm going to try this one more time, and then I'll let this rest. In general, over-all, community wide, with people we don't even talk to... Are we adding to the distraction of others from Christ by decorating and participating in the secular traditions of Santa? Again, I'm not feeling personally led to refrain from it, because it doesn't distract me. I'm not banging my head with guilt.

I would answer your question as yes, we are contributing to not only the distraction but also the subtle mockery of Christmas by replacing Jesus with a man that can see all the good and the bad all over the world (only God can do this), who rewards (presents) and punishes (coal, switches or no presents depending on how one was taught) but isn`t it Jesus`s job to make final rewards and punishments to all mankind, who is always kind, jolly, wise (no one questions Santa`s judgement of who is good or bad), completely trustworthy (no one fears that Santa will be late or a blizzard will stop him) basically he is portrayed as perfect. I think it`s a joke of Satan`s to have kids all over the world relying on Santa rather than Jesus. Santa is like a mocking cartoon of Jesus but in a subtle way.
For those of us who were brought up with santa of course we would never dream of mocking Jesus. That is not the heart of the majority of people who celebrate Christmas with Santa, but I think it is satan`s joke and without realizing it, people get caught up in the joke.
My daughter just turned 6 a couple of weeks ago and she surprised me when she said "Mommy you tell me the truth about Santa and Jesus but other mommies don`t. I am glad you are my Mommy". My son then chimed in and reaffirmed my daughter`s words. I never dreamed that simply celebrating Christmas as purely a celebration of Jesus would affect my children in this way. I am finding too that by just celebrating Jesus it becomes a witnessing tool. When people talk about Santa, I can tell them the real meaning of Christmas is Jesus so that is Who we celebrate. I live in a nonChristian land so this often surprises people because they think Christmas is about Santa. Santa has so invaded Christmas that even nonChristians celebrate Christmas and Santa with no idea that Jesus has any connection with Christmas! That is how far the influence of Santa has gone. This myth has spread all over the world and taken claim of Christmas. Who is to blame for this? Christians because we are the ones who celebrate Christmas the most. We are the ones who put Santa in Christmas. And we are the ones that spread Christmas to the world minus Jesus. We are guilty! But how many Christians do you see trying to reclaim Christmas and reestablish the truth that Christmas is about Jesus not Santa? We even bring Santa in the church, how much worse can that be. It is like bringing an idol in the church.

 

[pjt]

I`ve been thinking about this topic more and it sort of frustrates me as I think of it. I mean why is it that we Christians do not respect and regard our God highly? We do in words but not in action. If someone wants to slander our God we let them. When someone of a different religion hears of ramadan, they think “an islamic holy day” or Yom Kippur a “Jewish holy day”. They may not understand what these holy days mean but at least they understand it is a holy day. Why? Because the muslims and Jews don`t allow their holy day to be corrupted and taken over with a silly, mythical character like Santa. On the other hand, when you ask about Christmas or Easter (our 2 most important holy days as Christians) to nonChristians, they think Santa and the Easter Bunny. Why? Because we Christians play with our holy days and make them so frivolous that no one can recognize them as something holy! Others guard their holy days as sacred, but we joke around with them and make light of them by throwing in Santa and a Bunny as the focus. Even at church people will say “Was Santa good to you this year?”. I have yet to have anyone ask me “Was Jesus good to you this year?” We have collectively corrupted our own holy day. I truly have come to believe (I grew up with Santa being taught in the home like most Christians), that all Christians need to throw away all their Santa idols in their homes because basically that is what he is, an idol in place of Jesus. Stop playing the Santa music and just play music that praises Jesus not Santa. Read the story of Jesus` birth to our children instead of Santa stories. Decorate our trees with decorations that have spiritual meaning so as we put them on our tree with our family we can talk about the star leading the wise men to Jesus, the angels that sang at Jesus` birth, the lights that represent Jesus is the Light of the world and how we should also be lights, etc. We need to reclaim Christmas as a holy day not a Santa day. If we want the day to be about Santa then we need to take Jesus out completely and call the holiday Santamas because light and darkness don`t go together and why should we make Jesus second fiddle to Santa or even share the spotlight with Santa? It is one or the other but not both. I choose Jesus and only Jesus! What about others? I don`t think we can straddle the fence or send out mixed messages anymore.

 

[Mike]

I`ve been thinking about this topic more and it sort of frustrates me as I think of it. I mean why is it that we Christians do not respect and regard our God highly? We do in words but not in action. If someone wants to slander our God we let them. When someone of a different religion hears of ramadan, they think “an islamic holy day†or Yom Kippur a “Jewish holy dayâ€. They may not understand what these holy days mean but at least they understand it is a holy day. Why? Because the muslims and Jews don`t allow their holy day to be corrupted and taken over with a silly, mythical character like Santa.

Pjt, you make a valid point here, but I'm not sure that Christians created this myth. I don't know the true origins of the secular tradition and how it was advanced to where it is, but I would say that today it is more a matter of secular society and those who are against Christianity to cover up the True meaning of this remembrance. And this really speaks to my OP. I don't allow this tradition to cloud the meaning of Christmas for myself or my family, but I do see that we are not making a positive influence when we not only reject it, but participate in it.

As I said in another thread, I don't even really associate the two things. While we celebrate the birth of Christ and participate in the "Santa" thing at the same time, we do so independent of each other. There's the matter of faith and then the other fun things that we do with Santa. They aren't connected. But your point is very well made, IMO.

 

[pjt]

Pjt, you make a valid point here, but I'm not sure that Christians created this myth. I don't know the true origins of the secular tradition and how it was advanced to where it is, but I would say that today it is more a matter of secular society and those who are against Christianity to cover up the True meaning of this remembrance.

This is my point, I don`t think it is secular society "who are against Christianity" that have propogated the Santa myth. I think it is Christians who are responsible. When I was growing up, I lived in the Bible Belt where everyone claimed to be a Christian and every single child I knew except 2 Jehovah Witnesses, claimed to believe in Santa. It is the Christians not the atheists or other religions that can be blamed for Santa. In fact, I have heard American atheists say they don`t want to have anything to do with Christmas because it is a Christian holiday. I don`t think it`s the muslims or Jews that are celebrating Santa each year either. So who is to blame? Christians! There may be people that want to corrupt Christmas but look at the Jews and muslims. Have they allowed anyone to corrupt their holy days with cartoon replacements? Only we Christians are guilty of that because we have not guarded what is supposed to be precious to us, the remembrance of Jesus coming to the world to bring Salvation to mankind. We are the ones that put our kids in Santa`s lap and tell them he is the one that is watching them. We are the ones that when our small children have a fit in July we tell them that they better straighten up or Santa won`t come and see them. We are the ones that decorate our homes with Santa. We are the ones that sing "Santa Clause is Coming to Town". We are the ones that bake Santa cakes and cookies and wrap our gifts in Santa wrap. We are the ones that leave cookies out for Santa and his reindeer. We are guilty of propogating Santa and making him the center of Christmas. We can`t blame others for this. We are the cause. Then we sent missionaries throughtout the world and what do you think they spread to celebrate Christmas? Santa Clause! We think it is just fun so we mix Santa with Jesus thinking it is okay. Is that any different than the Israelites mixing pagen practices with God`s way. Is it any different than Rachel slipping in an idol to take with her while planning on worshipping God too? We can`t mix and match and say well I separate this for God and that for something else. Everything has to be for God. When we eat, we thank God. Before we sleep we pray to God. Hopefully before we start our daily routines, we pray to God to be with us in those routines. Does God really want us to carve out time for Santa while setting Jesus aside so we can celebrate Santa? I don`t think so. I don`t blame people for doing this because it is so ingrained in our culture that we lose sight of what we are doing. I grew up that way too, but after having children God just really convicted my heart and opened my eyes to what was really happening and when I saw it, I saw it. I think for you to be asking this question, perhaps God is convicting your heart too and is going to lead you into a more Christ focused Christmas not a divided Christmas where 1/2 is Santa and 1/2 is Jesus but all is Jesus because he is worthy of that. Actually lots of Christians 90-99% of the entire Christmas season is Santa and 1-10% is Jesus. Jesus shouldn`t have to share even .0001% with Santa. Jesus is our Savior! He has saved us from hell! He bought us with the price of His blood cruelly taken! He deserves more than having to share His gift of salvation with a story book Santa. This is really a shame on us Christians for allowing this to go on. We are the ones responsible and we are the only ones who can make it right. So brothers and sisters, do we continue the status quo of having fun with Santa at the expense of Jesus or do we seek to give dignity to God`s gift to mankind?

 

[Adstar]

Look at you're name >>> Adstar.

Reverse the letters >> RatSDA. (??)

Rodent Adventist intruder!!!

Just kiddin bud. And...yes....I'm following you around.

Doc. (CoD)

I think we have formed a Mutual Stalking Society strangelove.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[pjt]

Just another comment. I saw a video on a news report where an American school had a complaint from a Rabbi about Santa in the school. Now this story shows how messed up we all are about Christmas. The Rabbi`s complaint was he did not want "the religious element of Santa" in the school because it tells the little Jewish children that Santa doesn`t visit them because they are bad (Santa only visits the good kids). But did anyone see this as ridiculous? No! What happened was the Christians started calling into the school defending the right to keep Santa because Christmas is a Christian holiday and America was built on Christianty so they should leave our Santa alone. Do anyone else see how messed up this is? And even the news agency which should be intellectual was discussing was this an issue of separation of Church and State (this is Santa people!!!!). Every single person in this story was blind and not one element of it was about true Christianty. One Christian woman said "they can believe in their god, why can`t we believe in Santa?" I think she underlined the problem. Santa has become the god of Christmas and Christians are too blind to see or accept it. The rabbi should have been happy it was Santa rather than Jesus because he could point to the absolute stupidity and lie of believing in a fat jolly man who brings toys to kids all over the world. But even he was sucked into this blindness. And then the Christians! I wanted to grab them and say "what has Santa to do with Jesus` birth?" For the news, I was amazed they couldn`t distinguish a children`s comic character from Jesus. So to go back to your original question, it is more than a distraction, it is a deception to the point of self deception. I would like to add this video got 32 pages of comments I suppose from angry "Christians" and they resorted to saying some really evil things about Jews on almost every comment. I was sickened to my stomach. If this is the fruit of believing in Santa, I want no part of it. It is sick and brings out a horrific evil in some people.