Another Search

[dianegcook]

No kidding.

But in times past there have been created whole denominations based upon one person's hermeneutics. (An obvious error) How people can get caught up in this sort of thing is beyond me.

Today we have access to the truth by careful study.
The truth is out there...but so are a bunch of lies. The Jehovah Witnesses have had to "retranslate" the whole Bible as the standard translations all disagree with their doctrines.
Other denominations have also created their own translations as certain doctrines come into conflict with scriptures as translated by persons who did not share those doctrines. (There can be no perfect English translation... Just can't be)

Which brings out the question again...most denominations have their own translations as the scriptures can be "bent" to promote or demote things.

People say that the Bible says nothing about abortion.... Uh..I hate to say so but it does. We just deliberately ignore the hermeneutics that should be applied to the appropriate passages.

So...why?

Could the Baptists give up their minds about full immersion for Baptism?
The Charismatics about speaking in tongues? Presbyterian renouncing Calvinism? Or even the Catholics about praying to Mary?

Highly unlikely... Even if a scholar of that denomination came across full proof contextually accurate that they were wrong as a denomination in some doctrine they generally don't speak out. Occasionally yes, but normally no. Why?

And the search goes on.

Maybe Jesus should have made a beatitude along the lines of "Blessed are the most theologically correct for they shall...)

Some were raised that way, and you can't tell them anything different.
They can not admit that they are wrong after sitting in them pews all them years.

Regardless,
I can see some truth in every denomination.
Then again some lies.
As it is prophesied in Amos 8:11
Behold, the days come, Saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord.

Hard to believe when there is a church on every corner.
Most do not want to offend anyone, thus might make the collection plate smaller.

 

[dianegcook]

There is no doubt in my mind that the scriptures are preloaded with conflicts that few care to enter into.

This, being one of them:

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

This is a hard concept to wrap one's head around. We all want to make claims that God in Christ loves us. When was the last time you heard anyone make a case AGAINST themselves? Paul makes such cases against himself throughout the N.T.

But it's a story seldom told.

You'll never hear it. People don't and can't like such approaches to God.

Yet Jesus tells us flat out, that if we don't hate our own life, we can't be His disciple. This is a PRIME example, imho, of gaming our ways around Jesus' Own Words.

I've cited this example at this site so many times I'm sick of it, because none will hear of it and can't hear of it.

Here's the setup. Paul said in Romans 7:21 that evil was present with him.

Does Jesus hate evil?

YES.

Do you see how easy it is to hate yourself, using Paul's measure of himself? For me this is easy to see, even if the conclusion is unfavorable to my own sorry hide.

Hi Smaller, I can see what you are talking about, those whom shall save their life shall lose it.

Strong's, Greek, #3404, hate, can also mean in that verse, Love Less.
Which brings us to #1, commandment, Love God, with all thine heart, soul , mind.

 

[smaller]

Hi Smaller, I can see what you are talking about, those whom shall save their life shall lose it.

Strong's, Greek, #3404, hate, can also mean in that verse, Love Less.
Which brings us to #1, commandment, Love God, with all thine heart, soul , mind.

I would consider that a common angle to slide by the fact that Jesus does hate evil and yes, we all do have evil present with us, that Jesus hates.

For me this is what I might term the "equalizing ground" for all His disciples.

Ugly ground, certainly, but a preventative for anyone thinking they are any better than anyone else.

 

[dianegcook]

I would consider that a common angle to slide by the fact that Jesus does hate evil and yes, we all do have evil present with us, that Jesus hates.

For me this is what I might term the "equalizing ground" for all His disciples.

Ugly ground, certainly, but a preventative for anyone thinking they are any better than anyone else.

Yes
He hates evil.
Just referring to the verse about hating one's mother and father.
He does also state, honor them.

 

[smaller]

Yes
He hates evil.
Just referring to the verse about hating one's mother and father.
He does also state, honor them.

Hence my observation. If we recognize that one of the factual presentations of the scriptures is that "all" have "evil present" then the basis of both Godly Hatred and the Fear of God is established solidly.

Yes, I do fear God because of "evil present" with me. And God has shown me to be "rightfully" fearful, because of this fact. I pray not to have to have many more lessons on this count. But, Divine Superiority can deal with me in either direction. This much I know from decades in faith.

God in Christ can be a harsh task Master to drive home the point. Our chastisements do not come from the persecutions of other people, but from God dealing with the reality of evil present between our own 2 ears.

 

[JohnDB]

Yes
He hates evil.
Just referring to the verse about hating one's mother and father.
He does also state, honor them.

The Commandment about honoring one's parents is more about Abraham and the Nation of Israel (spiritually speaking) than biologically speaking of birth parents. This was laid out rather clearly in a past thread of mine about the Sabbath and the order of the commandments.
But
A person must obey their parents or be subject to stoning in the Old Covenant as well... Or the parents were stoned for the children's crimes.

 

[JohnDB]

Hence my observation. If we recognize that one of the factual presentations of the scriptures is that "all" have "evil present" then the basis of both Godly Hatred and the Fear of God is established solidly.

Yes, I do fear God because of "evil present" with me. And God has shown me to be "rightfully" fearful, because of this fact. I pray not to have to have many more lessons on this count. But, Divine Superiority can deal with me in either direction. This much I know from decades in faith.

God in Christ can be a harsh task Master to drive home the point. Our chastisements do not come from the persecutions of other people, but from God dealing with the reality of evil present between our own 2 ears.

Ok.
We were talking about this in Sunday school. In the beatitudes it talks about all this good stuff that a person gets for following Christ first...then goes into the persecution which a person gets as a follower of Christ and then a warning about losing zeal for Christ and to let our light shine very publicly no matter what.

Persecution is one thing...being trod upon is another. They look very similar but with drastically different results.

 

[dianegcook]

The Commandment about honoring one's parents is more about Abraham and the Nation of Israel (spiritually speaking) than biologically speaking of birth parents. This was laid out rather clearly in a past thread of mine about the Sabbath and the order of the commandments.
But
A person must obey their parents or be subject to stoning in the Old Covenant as well... Or the parents were stoned for the children's crimes.

I missed that thread:shock
I still believe you should listen to and honor them.
One of the commandments.
Do we also take out, thou shalt not steal, because it supposedly in the O.T?
Love thy neighbor as thyself, falls in that line.....

 

[JohnDB]

I missed that thread:shock
I still believe you should listen to and honor them.
One of the commandments.
Do we also take out, thou shalt not steal, because it supposedly in the O.T?
Love thy neighbor as thyself, falls in that line.....

Of course you shouldn't steal...and you should listen to the leaders and parents God gives you.
But when one of those leaders/parents doesn't agree with God guess which one you should follow?

But there is an interesting case of "affluenza". A spoiled rich kid running from the law in the US who got in trouble in Mexico and they are trying to deport him to the US...His mother bailing him out of everything.

 

[dianegcook]

Of course you shouldn't steal...and you should listen to the leaders and parents God gives you.
But when one of those leaders/parents doesn't agree with God guess which one you should follow?

But there is an interesting case of "affluenza". A spoiled rich kid running from the law in the US who got in trouble in Mexico and they are trying to deport him to the US...His mother bailing him out of everything.

Yes, I agree.

 

[evenifigoalone]

I dunno. I'm relatively new to all this, and I find the number of Protestant denominations overwhelming and, honestly, frightening. I was raised Presbyterian, then saved by the Pentecostals. Both say the other is wrong, but then sometimes muster up a little diplomacy, as in "well, we can agree to disagree." That sort of thing bothers me.

That said...I think God blesses us despite our misunderstandings of Him.

Obviously somebody is wrong, but I think for probably most denominations there is enough truth there to lead someone to salvation.

Scarily enough, I think baptists exist that think only baptists can be saved. Once a book we were reading for family altar seemed to have this perspective.

 

[smaller]

Yes
He hates evil.
Just referring to the verse about hating one's mother and father.
He does also state, honor them.

This particular conflict is purposefully, Divinely inserted into the scriptures. And is shown in many ways.

Purposed conflict. Could provide many more examples.

One of my favorites are these two, from Paul:

1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

This is identical alignment by Paul to Jesus' command to hate ourselves. If a person has little understanding they will either ignore this raging conflict, where Paul on one hand demands us to sin not, yet on the other is the chief of sinners after salvation. Either Paul is a total hypocrite OR scriptures are pointing to other matters. Obviously I'm in the latter camp.

Few see themselves as scripture sees us. We all try/stuggle to fit ourselves only under the parts of scripture we like. I'd posture the real gems of God are in the other, opposite direction. Where our inherent pride will not go and will refuse to go.

 

[smaller]

Scarily enough, I think baptists exist that think only baptists can be saved. Once a book we were reading for family altar seemed to have this perspective.

There is no doubt about that! Many baptists believe that. I had a good friend who was raised in a baptist family. He was not an adherent til in his later 20's. Bout the same time I had a born again experience. I actually did the "full immersion" baptism so I could fellowship with him cause he thought I wasn't saved. He was polite enough about it, not overtly condemning me to hell, but it certainly was "covert" in his mind. That kind of mindset exists in most christians. Secretly, in their minds, they think anyone not in their sect is not going to make it.

Some are more openly condemning. These are usually sect leaders.

 

[smaller]

Ok.
We were talking about this in Sunday school. In the beatitudes it talks about all this good stuff that a person gets for following Christ first...then goes into the persecution which a person gets as a follower of Christ and then a warning about losing zeal for Christ and to let our light shine very publicly no matter what.

Persecution is one thing...being trod upon is another. They look very similar but with drastically different results.

I'm of the strong opinion that all persecution is demonic. None of it is from just "a person" or "groups of people" in and of themselves. And some of that is personal, i.e. there is no other "person" involved. This would be in temptations and lusts for example, which are a form of persecution to believers. And yes, this is "internal" in nature, which places the persecutors with us. <- Which I might add is how scriptures see us.

 

[evenifigoalone]

There is no doubt about that! Many baptists believe that. I had a good friend who was raised in a baptist family. He was not an adherent til in his later 20's. Bout the same time I had a born again experience. I actually did the "full immersion" baptism so I could fellowship with him cause he thought I wasn't saved. He was polite enough about it, not overtly condemning me to hell, but it certainly was "covert" in his mind. That kind of mindset exists in most christians. Secretly, in their minds, they think anyone not in their sect is not going to make it.

Some are more openly condemning. These are usually sect leaders.

Note to self: this is probably how unbelievers feel about us believing they'll go to hell. Good to know.
Well, it can't be helped. I don't have to like it, but that doesn't make them a bad person for believing that.

 

[smaller]

Note to self: this is probably how unbelievers feel about us believing they'll go to hell. Good to know.
Well, it can't be helped. I don't have to like it, but that doesn't make them a bad person for believing that.

Yes, well, it's quite a commonly held belief among nearly all forms of christian sectarianism. Which same "mindset" will continue to divide the churches.

This is a Divine Working of God, to keep the "evil" in the hearts of "believers" from coalescing.

 

[dianegcook]

This particular conflict is purposefully, Divinely inserted into the scriptures. And is shown in many ways.

Purposed conflict. Could provide many more examples.

One of my favorites are these two, from Paul:

1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

This is identical alignment by Paul to Jesus' command to hate ourselves. If a person has little understanding they will either ignore this raging conflict, where Paul on one hand demands us to sin not, yet on the other is the chief of sinners after salvation. Either Paul is a total hypocrite OR scriptures are pointing to other matters. Obviously I'm in the latter camp.

Few see themselves as scripture sees us. We all try/stuggle to fit ourselves only under the parts of scripture we like. I'd posture the real gems of God are in the other, opposite direction. Where our inherent pride will not go and will refuse to go.

1Cor.15:34 is also referring to Rom.13:11
Back up to verse 10,
Love worketh no ill to his neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep, for now is our salvation nearer than we believed.

The night is far spent, the day is at hand, let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

1Tim.1:15
Chief sinner, yep
As stated in verse 13,
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious, but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Yes, Saul use to prosecute the church, some he had stoned, not by himself, but by others.
Then on the road to Damascus, God intervened.
Blinded him.
But then seen the light.....

 

[smaller]

1Cor.15:34 is also referring to Rom.13:11
Back up to verse 10,
Love worketh no ill to his neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep, for now is our salvation nearer than we believed.

The night is far spent, the day is at hand, let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

1Tim.1:15
Chief sinner, yep
As stated in verse 13,
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious, but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Yes, Saul use to prosecute the church, some he had stoned, not by himself, but by others.
Then on the road to Damascus, God intervened.
Blinded him.
But then seen the light.....

Paul referred to himself as the chief of sinners in the [present tense], I am. Not was.

If we are able by God in Christ to see ourselves as Jesus sees us, we will see ourselves as Paul saw himself. And if/when we do, we'll see more than "just Paul."

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

At that junction, we might see the basis of scriptural hatred, applied to our own sorry hides.

 

[smaller]

There is a place that God in Christ, in His Word, has carved out where evil can not go. That is to the place of HONESTY.

And yes, honestly we all have sin, and our sin is demonic, i.e. of the devil. 1 John 3:8.

No liar can enter into the territory of God, that He has hidden in the scriptures. The above IS the roadblock.

The truth of God is hidden where liars can not tread.

 

[dianegcook]

Paul referred to himself as the chief of sinners in the [present tense], I am. Not was.

If we are able by God in Christ to see ourselves as Jesus sees us, we will see ourselves as Paul saw himself. And if/when we do, we'll see more than "just Paul."

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

At that junction, we might see the basis of scriptural hatred, applied to our own sorry hides.

Depends on how you see that verse.
What was the thorn in the flesh?
Some believe it was his eyes, couldn't see very well.