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Hitch
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Was the rapture imminent in April of 1948?
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Sinthesis
Member
No! Because God needs His authority to be backed by the power of a UN resolution before He can act.
Duh!:crazy
jasoncran
Member
lol. sorry i do believe that modern isreal does have some significance but thats just funny.
i dont buy the matthew 24 thing as all references to isreal in the gospels arent restoration but JUDGEMENT.
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Hitch
Guest
Was the rapture imminent in April of 1948?
H
Hitch
Guest
Must be injuns about,, awfully quiet
D4Christ
Member
Scriptures state that certain conditions must be in place before the rapture can occur. Only until these events take place will the rapture be imminent imho...and no these events have not occured.
Blessings,
Dee
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Hitch
Guest
Then Darby, Scofield, Ironside, Moody, Blackstone, Larkin, Chafer ,Walvoord,Pentecost , McGee,Ryrie, Most of the SBC, the AOG, among many others, to a man, taught false hope which could not have originated with aid of the Holy Spirit. In fact the very premise this teaching was based upon was grossly in error, if you are correct.
The President of Dallas Theological Seminary writes;
'The hope of the return of Christ to take the saints to heaven is presented in John 14 as an imminent hope. There is no teaching of any intervening event. The prospect of being taken to heaven at the coming of Christ is not qualified by description of any signs or prerequisite events'
Rapture Question , Walvoord, p 73.
The doctrine of imminent rapture being central to the dispensational system and supported by 100% of their written eschatology,( up to 1990) might cause questioning of other distinctive doctrines of this movement, were it to be discredited.
You are quite correct, rapture cannot be imminent if prophetic events are yet to come to pass. It is equally true then, that the 'church age' as defined in the SRB never existed. Is it possible too that the prophets did in fact see into the time of the church and wrote of it as well?
I wonder whether many of Lindsey's readers know that he was at odds with his teachers at DTS regarding his position on Israel/1948 as fulfillment , at the time 'Late Great ' was written.
Today's adherent much choose the classic/traditional DF of Scofield,Chafer and Walvooord and give up his claims the Israel/1948 as prophetic fulfillment, or side with Lindsey's popular version. Poop or manure. Most will sell out and few will ever be told there once was an important rift, it will be swept under the rug and piled up right next to Pentecost's monsterous mustard tree.
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jasoncran
Member
while im not a preterist nor a dispy but i will say this here.
if the church is that off in america and canada where this is preached well since for a few centuries american missioniaries lead the way what then is the state of the asian churches and african churches.
apostasy?if that is the case then the kingdom hasnt been added since the 1800's
careful, yes its heresy but as an arminists i could say the same about the sbc, the myriad of calvinists.as they all push that eternal security thing which has no biblical backing to it.
but i dont. because well have our doctrines that we like because it fells good and its tradition.
cough christmas, cough easter egg hunting. cough america is isreal per the calvinistic puritanical influence. on that note america's colonists wanted God but that in no wise makes america isreal.
and how is that revalant because where does it say that any end times doctrine truth or not is a matter of salvation.
err yes but lets be honest if you feel that way then dont go to church or start your own.
if the church is that off in america and canada where this is preached well since for a few centuries american missioniaries lead the way what then is the state of the asian churches and african churches.
apostasy?if that is the case then the kingdom hasnt been added since the 1800's
careful, yes its heresy but as an arminists i could say the same about the sbc, the myriad of calvinists.as they all push that eternal security thing which has no biblical backing to it.
but i dont. because well have our doctrines that we like because it fells good and its tradition.
cough christmas, cough easter egg hunting. cough america is isreal per the calvinistic puritanical influence. on that note america's colonists wanted God but that in no wise makes america isreal.
and how is that revalant because where does it say that any end times doctrine truth or not is a matter of salvation.
err yes but lets be honest if you feel that way then dont go to church or start your own.
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Hitch
Guest
I dont know what you are trying to say and I cant see any connection to the OP. Please keep to topic. Every thread here is not your personal complain about America soapbox.
D4Christ
Member
Hi Hitch,
You know the theory that if you have a long line of people and whisper a statement to the first, who then passes it on to the second, and so on that by the time it gets to the last person the message will be different? Well that is what I think happens when all these "scholars" try to re-teach what has already been taught and explained in the Bible. The bible was written and divinely inspired by God's prophets. When the last of the ink dried that was it imho. I don't study from the standpoint of what some men wrote about a book I can read for myself. Their interpretation is of no conern to me.
I believe the LORD gives us the ability to read and understand his Word. I think the problem is that men have decided to let others read and then explain what God's Word is saying. Therefore, when we read "A" we will reintrepret that to mean "B" because somebody else has always told us that "B" is the answer.
Scriptures in 2 Thess 2, in reference to the return of the Lord and our gathering (rapture) to Him, states specifically that the Day will not happen until there is a Great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness has been revealed. How much more straight forward can you get? The reason people are confused is because pretrib preachers will almost always skip this when teaching an imminent rapture. Why? Because instead of being true and loyal to the scriptures given us by the prophets, they are loyal to men, decorated in scholarship and pedigrees and given honor among his peers.
The reason why so many believe 1948 fulfilled prophecy is because they read Ezek 37, not from a blank slate, but with an opinon already in hand based on what scholars have already told us. But if someone came from another planet, not knowing anything about the bible, and read the critera of Ezek 37's prophecy and then that someone looked at Israel's past up to its present, there is no way they would state the evidence shows this prophecy has been fulfilled. Israel is no more a cohesive nation, worshipping one God, with one King, with no idols, under a covenant of peace, then we are one Church that all agrees on this forum.
What I will say is that 1948 is significant for the fact that the Ezek 37 cannot take place if Israel had not been declared a nation again. Verse 11 clearly states that the "bones" tell the LORD "our nation is finished." This is before the prophecy states the LORD will bring them back under one King and one God. Obviously the bones knew they were a nation before they were brought back to become the nation the LORD intended them to be. The destruction they are being brought back from is the destruction they suffer in the Day of the Lord, which promises to destroy them and scatter them to their enemies. The DOTL begins with the invasion if Israel brought on by God's wrath and ends with His wrath being unleased on the rest of the world. Once the Lord has defeated Israel's enemies, He then establishes them as a nation under His rule in the presence of their enemies.
But seriously....that's a whole other discussion. ;)
Blessings,
Dee
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Hitch
Guest
Nonetheless teachers are counted as gifts to the church
I think it takes a committee style interpretation to arrive at dispensationalism
And you left out the portion telling the Thessolonians that this force was at work at the time of writing
Actually it is the lack of scholarship that got us to this point. DF was answered early on and very well but God's people have a preference for leeks and onions.
I wonder if most folks know the faculty of DTS taught that Ezy's prophecy should be literalized down to the re-adoption of bronze age weapons and animal powered travel. LMBO
Yes it is
I like the content of D4Christ post. Good thing we have the bible, most of the time we take people's opinion of the bible and certify that it is what the bible says, though it may not be so, glad we got the real thing to compare it to. Let's face it, any of our opinions could be wrong, but the document is right.
To answer your question Hitch, imo, it was imminent, and is imminent, and will be imminent. I have heard many opinions on the rapture, but what I gleaned from the document itself is that the rapture is when the spirit is reaped from the body. The chaff stays behind, the seed is taken. Paul declared that he would be here when the rapture took place (we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together), as would those to whom he was writing. He refered to them and himself as "we who are alive and remain", the unbelievers that would be raptured, I believe, he referred to them as "those who are asleep" and that we should not sorry over them (as they are Christ's also).
We have always been taught that the rapture is a one time event, but I believe from my reading of the bible, that it is an event that happens everyday, to believer and non-believer, whose body dies physically. 1 and 2 Thess and 1 Cor. as well as many other passages seem to speak of this as well. The fields are white, and are being harvested imo.
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Hitch
Guest
Well no one will accuse you of being mainline DF 
D4Christ
Member
Hi tig,
I would like to humbly suggest that your anology of the chaff staying behind is incorrect. Scriptures specifically state that Christ knew he was speaking to farmers and used anaologies they would understand. In farming, the process of threshing releases the chaff into the air, while the wheat remains on the ground.
Other wheat parables support this in the bible such as in Matt 13.
This is another example of the wicked being removed and suffering God's wrath. And finally the same example is found in Rev 14 using this time vines and grapes. In this example the grapes are harvested and thrown into the "winepress" of God's wrath. The vines remain.
I do believe Paul when he said those who are dead in Christ and those who are alive in Christ at his coming would be gathered to meet Christ in the air. This is really specific showing that those who belong to Christ leave this earth and are taken somewhere else. This gathering of the saints is the beginning of the end, not the end. I believe this gathering takes place between Rev 6 and 7 and correspondes to Matt 24. After our gatering, the DOTL is released on the earth. There will be people, who have not accepted the mark, that will turn their lives over to God during this time period.
That being said, it is only after the angels separate into two groups the remaining people on the earth (as shown in the wheat/chaff parables and Rev 14) that God's final wrath is pour out in the last bowl judgments on earth, sealing the fate of all who accepted the mark of the beast bringing God's wrath to completion. This leads to the final fight at Aramageddon and God's enemies being thrown into the lake of fire.
Because of Rev 14, some suggest there are two raptures. However, I would suggest that in one event, the rapture, we are caught up in the air before the wrath is released. The other event takes place during God's wrath and it is a harvest which leaves the good seed and removes the wicked from the earth. The earth continues on for a 1,000 years until it is replaced with a new heaven and and a new earth.
Just my 2 cents,
Dee
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Hitch
Guest
I was reviewing Dr John's Major Bible Prophecies and his version is;
'If the Holy Spirit and God's power in the world are the ultimate restrainers of sin as is indicated in Scripture,it should be evident that the restraint could not be lifted as long as the Holy Spirit indwells the church. This would require the removal of the church before this man could be revealed. In a word, the rapture has to occur before this man is revealed... '
Major Bible Prophecies ,Walvoord, 1991, p 276
D4Christ
Member
I would have to disagree with this scholar. The Great Tribulation is the wrath of Satan against those who profess Christ. Scriptures state we will go thru the GT. The AC is in charge of this persecution and will be revealed at this time. Therefore, how could the Holy Spirit be gone if God's people are suffering the GT at the hands of the AC? The AC is revealed and then given a 42 month reign. The rapture occurs sometime during this 42 month period. My guess would be sooner rather than later, since Christ himself stated that we would not survive the persecution of the GT if He did not cut the time of our suffering short.
Though scriptures don't state this explicitly, there are more arguements for Michael, the archangel as the restrainer.
my 2 cents,
Dee
Stormcrow
Member
So believers will only undergo 42 months of tribulation? That's neither born out by Christ's words nor the testimony of history.
The key to unraveling this confusion over "tribulation" lies in the fact that Christ discusses not one but two tribulations in Matthew 24, as I discussed in this thread:
http://www.christianforums.net/f20/pre-trib-post-trib-two-tribs-35634/
Here's an excerpt:
Matthew 24:9 discusses the tribulation of believers:
{9} "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. Matthew 24:9 (NASB)
It's the same tribulation He tells them would happen - in greater detail - in Matthew 10:
{16} "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves. {17} "But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues; {18} and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. Matthew 10:16-18 (NASB)
{21} "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. {22} "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. {23} "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:21-23 (NASB)
Again, this is the tribulation of Matthew 24:9, and it is a sign for the coming of a "great tribulation" Christ mentions in Matthew 24:15-21:
{15} "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), {16} then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. {17} "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. {18} "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. {19} "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! {20} "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. {21} "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. {22} "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Matthew 24:15-22 (NASB)
Luke tells us what this "abomination of desolation" (literally, the "hated thing which causes destruction") is:
{20} "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. {21} "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; {22} because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Luke 21:20-22 (NASB)
This is the same vengeance promised to the souls under the altar in Revelation 6:
{10} and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" {11} And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also. Revelation 6:10-11 (NASB)
And it's the same vengeance Christ promised would fall on the corrupt priesthood that crucified Him:
{34} "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, {35} so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. {36} "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Matthew 23:34-36 (NASB)
So in closing, look at what Christ told His disciples in Matthew 10:
"But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues...But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.
And look at what He tells the chief priests, scribes, and Pharisees:
I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth...
Two tribulations: the first - the tribulation of believers - as a cause and a sign of the second - the destruction of Jerusalem.
Jerusalem was besieged 42 months before it fell on the ninth of AV: the same day it fell to the Babylonians some 600 years before. That's the great tribulation that lasted 42 months.
Hope this helps.
D4Christ
Member
I am not sure how you reach this conclusion. In Rev 20 scriptures state that those who share in the 1st resurrection (the rapture of the dead and alive in Christ) will reign with Him a thousand years. Would you suggest that those who died prior to the GT are not part of the 1st resurrection?
Blessings,
Dee
D4Christ
Member
There is a lot of informaton given in your post but let's start with your statement above. I never stated that believers will undergo 42 months of tribulation.
Scritpures tell us that in this world we will always have tribulation. But in Matt 24, Christ tells us that when we see what Daniel talked about...and we know Daniel talked about the AC.... that there will be greater anquish or greater tribulation than at any time since the world began.
We also know from Rev 13:5 and Daneil 7 that the AC rules 42 months or 3 1/2 years and that he is allowed to wage war on those who profess Christ and conquer them.
Christ states in Matt 24 that he will cut the time of our calamity (Great Tribulation) short because if He did not no one would survive.
So what we do know is the AC is given a 42 month reign. Those who profess Christ will suffer this Great Tribulation from Satan's wrath. Christ will cut that time of suffering short. How long we will suffer only the Father knows. But my "guess" is that it won't go on too long or we would all end up dead.
Blessings,
Dee
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