AnotherRaptureQuestion

[tig]

Hi tig,

I would like to humbly suggest that your anology of the chaff staying behind is incorrect. Scriptures specifically state that Christ knew he was speaking to farmers and used anaologies they would understand. In farming, the process of threshing releases the chaff into the air, while the wheat remains on the ground.


Other wheat parables support this in the bible such as in Matt 13.

But the chaff is not taken (no matter how it is separated), it is the wheat grain itself, the thing that is most valuable that is taken into the barns.

This is another example of the wicked being removed and suffering God's wrath. And finally the same example is found in Rev 14 using this time vines and grapes. In this example the grapes are harvested and thrown into the "winepress" of God's wrath. The vines remain.

I do believe Paul when he said those who are dead in Christ and those who are alive in Christ at his coming would be gathered to meet Christ in the air. This is really specific showing that those who belong to Christ leave this earth and are taken somewhere else. This gathering of the saints is the beginning of the end, not the end. I believe this gathering takes place between Rev 6 and 7 and correspondes to Matt 24. After our gatering, the DOTL is released on the earth. There will be people, who have not accepted the mark, that will turn their lives over to God during this time period.

That being said, it is only after the angels separate into two groups the remaining people on the earth (as shown in the wheat/chaff parables and Rev 14) that God's final wrath is pour out in the last bowl judgments on earth, sealing the fate of all who accepted the mark of the beast bringing God's wrath to completion. This leads to the final fight at Aramageddon and God's enemies being thrown into the lake of fire.

Because of Rev 14, some suggest there are two raptures. However, I would suggest that in one event, the rapture, we are caught up in the air before the wrath is released. The other event takes place during God's wrath and it is a harvest which leaves the good seed and removes the wicked from the earth. The earth continues on for a 1,000 years until it is replaced with a new heaven and and a new earth.

Just my 2 cents,
Dee

We say "rapture" but really it is just the raising from the dead. Paul clearly states that this takes place when the natural body is sown, then it is raised a spiritual body. And here is the things that determines who is raised: 1 Cor 15:49 - And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

So, first we must bear the image of an earthy man, after that is sown, we shall bear the image of the heavenly man.

Now, there are people who are awakened or raised whilst they are still here on earth, they are not "asleep", they have heard the truth of the news that is good and have believed it. Those who have awakened don't have to be raised again, they are just changed (into their spiritual bodies), those who are still asleep, and have never believed the news that is good, they need to be raised from that state of death..

Marvelous story. A story filled with the best news possible.

 

[Vic C.]

the church - the invisible, universal Body of Christ - has been under pressure (tribulation - thlipsis) since the day Stephen was stoned.

The distinction between the two tribulations is subtle but critical:

For Christians, tribulation comes because of our belief in His name.

For Jerusalem, tribulation came as judgment for their disbelief and disobedience.

Hey Storm, I remember that, but don't recall if I ever responded to it in your thread.

It's basically what I believe. Jerusalem got theirs in 70 AD and lost their city/Temple not only to the Romans, but eventually to the Muslims. The Body has been and still is in tribulation. Some may even go back a little farther and Say Jesus was the first martyr of this tribulation. But for argument's sake, I will agree with the stoning of Stephen.

That event and the bringing of the Gospel to the first Gentile, Cornelius, marks the end of the 70th. week of Daniel.

Because of all this and more, I do not believe today's political state of Israel has anything to do with any rapture of gathering.

 

[jasoncran]

I am not sure how you reach this conclusion. In Rev 20 scriptures state that those who share in the 1st resurrection (the rapture of the dead and alive in Christ) will reign with Him a thousand years. Would you suggest that those who died prior to the GT are not part of the 1st resurrection?

Blessings,
Dee

no read what it says.

Revelation 20


1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

ok has any member of the "church age" died like that? if we arent in the tribulation per that verse then we dont reign.

then theres basic hermenutics and exegesis

1 Corinthians 6


1Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church

ok paul spoke to the church of corinth and told them that.

 

[D4Christ]

But the chaff is not taken (no matter how it is separated), it is the wheat grain itself, the thing that is most valuable that is taken into the barns.

God does not waste His words. Farming parables were used so that it would make sense to those who farm. Farmers, after separating their wheat keep the good stuff and get rid of the bad....in other words the bad is removed from the good...not the other way around.

I guess one could misinterpret the scritpures that state that the chaff and wheat are separated and the chaff is burned in the fiery furnance...or in one parable it says thrown in the furnance. But if the chaff is not removed or "taken" and allowed to stay how did it get in the furnance?

So if the wheat is "gathered" into the barn, I guess that begs the question what does the barn represent? If the wheat represents the "people of the Kingdom" (Matt 13:38) and the chaff or weeds are the ones removed from the Kingdom (Matt 13:41-42), then it would make sense that the good seed/wheat are 'people of the Kingdom' who are gathered into the barn, which is the Kingdom of God on earth and chaff are removed from the Kingdom on earth.

I supposes that is why the scriptures state:

Rev 5:10And you have caused them to become a Kingdom of priests for our God. And they will reign on the earth.

We say "rapture" but really it is just the raising from the dead.

And I suppose it was just a poor choice of words on Paul's part when he stated:

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.

Something about meeting the Lord in the air does not really resonate as the same as being gathered into a barn while the wicked are removed and burned, imho.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[jasoncran]

dee might i suggest looking into the parables from the jewish angle then after much study determine your postion. that is why i am leaving dispy,

take matthew 24.

figs mean isreal yet in the gospels all the parables are jugdments against the nation. in now wise is their any listing of restoration. and given acts 1 it says nothing on how it would come pass for the state of isreal. does it make sense that he would then tell john in a vision that isreal would be restored?

that is the conundrum i face. and i also have problems with isreal in 1948 being that fig tree and the quake intensity increasing as we have no base line to compare what is normal and what is not normal.

isreal is a jewish state. there are no known tribe living there in isreal.
i am hebrew myself and i dont know my tribe.

 

[D4Christ]

no read what it says.

I think I did.

Rev 20

4 Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. [And] I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.

1. John stated he saw thrones. Then he said he saw people on these thrones. He did not tell us where these people came from. He only said they had authority to judge.
2. Next he uses the word "and" (a conjuction meaning, in addition to, together with, or as well as) to tell us he also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded. He does not state that those beheaded are sitting on thrones.
3. Then after mentioning both groups, he states "they all came to life again" and they reigned..." John makes no distinction between the first group or the 2nd group mentioned. Both groups then qualify as part of the 1st resurrection.

Both groups, (i.e. "they all") came to life again and reigned. Therefore, being a part of the GT is not necessary to reign. And believers, as you pointed out in 1 Cor 6:3, are given authority to "judge."


Blessings,
Dee

 

[Hitch]

To be 'in Christ' is to be raised from death and sin.

 

[jasoncran]

[/quote]4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

no where does it say anything about those that arent in the tribulation. and is a conjuction.but the he is describing those on the throne. read the bible for what is says and like we do dont put words there that arent there.

 

[D4Christ]

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

no where does it say anything about those that arent in the tribulation. and is a conjuction.but the he is describing those on the throne. read the bible for what is says and like we do dont put words there that arent there.

Hi Jason,

I agree...we shouldn't put words or meaning where they don't belong. The first thing John states is that he saw "thrones". Then he states those on the throne had the authority to judge (describing what he saw on the thrones). By using "and" John is stating in addition to what he already described, he saw the souls of the beheaded. If John wanted to say that the only ones on the throne were those beheaded, why didn't he do that? There was no reason to repeat "I saw" and he doesn't do it in any of his other statements. John often clarifies his "I saw" statements in other verses. For example...

Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

We understand that the "to them" is pointing back to the seven angels. John doesn't use "I saw" again because his 2nd clause is clarifying what he "saw" in his first clause. However, John uses "I saw" throughout his vision each time he introduces a new element into his description. If the people on the throne were only those beheaded, John could have followed his own style of writing to convey this. He could have written...​

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,...

or....

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,....; and judgment was given unto them.

He could have done this but he didn't. Instead he uses "I saw" twice. It is quite possible that the "beheaded" he saw were also on the thrones, but his statement does not allow us to conclude that those he saw on the throne with judgement authority had to be beheaded. John's writing style seems to suggest that he would have clarified the 1st clause without using "I saw" again if his intention was to clarify that those on the throne with judgement were only the beheaded. If both groups before and after the "and" are the same then using "I saw" is completely unecessary and contrary to John's writing style.


Blessings,
Dee

 

[Stormcrow]

Hey Storm, I remember that, but don't recall if I ever responded to it in your thread.

It's basically what I believe. Jerusalem got theirs in 70 AD and lost their city/Temple not only to the Romans, but eventually to the Muslims. The Body has been and still is in tribulation. Some may even go back a little farther and Say Jesus was the first martyr of this tribulation. But for argument's sake, I will agree with the stoning of Stephen.

That event and the bringing of the Gospel to the first Gentile, Cornelius, marks the end of the 70th. week of Daniel.

Because of all this and more, I do not believe today's political state of Israel has anything to do with any rapture of gathering.

You did. I remember!

 

[Stormcrow]

I never stated that believers will undergo 42 months of tribulation. But...

You then go on to support this idea of a 42 month tribulation for believers, as noted in the following:

Scritpures tell us that in this world we will always have tribulation. But in Matt 24, Christ tells us that when we see what Daniel talked about...and we know Daniel talked about the AC.... that there will be greater anquish or greater tribulation than at any time since the world began.

We also know from Rev 13:5 and Daneil 7 that the AC rules 42 months or 3 1/2 years and that he is allowed to wage war on those who profess Christ and conquer them.

Christ states in Matt 24 that he will cut the time of our calamity (Great Tribulation) short because if He did not no one would survive.

So what we do know is the AC is given a 42 month reign. Those who profess Christ will suffer this Great Tribulation from Satan's wrath. Christ will cut that time of suffering short. How long we will suffer only the Father knows. But my "guess" is that it won't go on too long or we would all end up dead.

Blessings,
Dee

And herein lies the problem with the defense of your position: you've rolled two tribulations into one. Please, go back and reread my post with "all that information in it" and put what you think Daniel is writing aside for a moment.

The reference to Daniel Christ makes about the "abomination of desolation" in Matthew 24 is NOT about an antichrist. Luke explains what Matthew wrote in Luke 21:20-24.

Hope this helps.

 

[D4Christ]

And herein lies the problem with the defense of your position: you've rolled two tribulations into one. Please, go back and reread my post with "all that information in it" and put what you think Daniel is writing aside for a moment.

And herein lies the one of the causes our of disagreement. I do not believe there are two "tribulations." In fact, I believe scriptures state the punishment that is to come to the Jews is called "vengance" or "wrath." And thru my studies, I have come to understand that tribulation and wrath, although two forms of anger, have two different meanings. It's like comparing apples and oranges...both are fruit but not the same. Here is some more information borrowed from a site called Godandscience.org.

“First, I think it is important to define the word "tribulation" and how this is related to God's wrath (anger and judgment. There are two Greek words most often used to describe tribulation events, and in many instances, they are used together in the same verse. The first word is diwgmos (Strong's #G1375), which occurs 10 times in the New Testament and is translated "persecution(s)" in all major English translations. This word always refers to the persecution of believers by non-believers. The second word is thlipsis (Strong's #G2347), which occurs 45 times in the New Testament and is translated "tribulation(s)," "affliction(s)," "anguish," "distress," "persecution," or "trouble." In 42 of these 45 occurrences, the word refers to the suffering believers received at the hands of non-believers. One of the other 3 refer to the sufferings of Joseph when he was sold into slavery at the hands of his brothers, another to the sufferings of people during the famine of that time, and only one refers to the suffering of those who commit evil. On this basis alone, one would seem to be on shaky ground in assuming that the tribulation is reserved only for non-believers (since it only refers to non-believers in only 2% of all verses).

In contrast, two different Greek words are used to describe the suffering of non-believers at the hand of God. The first word is thumos (Strong's #G2372), which occurs in 18 verses in the New Testament and is translated "angry tempers," "fierce," "indignation," "outbursts of anger," "passion," "rage," and "wrath." In nine of those 18 verses, the term specifically refers to the anger and judgment of God against the unrighteous (the other 9 refer to the anger of people against each other. The second word is orgay (Strong's #G3709), which occurs in 34 verses in the New Testament and is translated "anger" or "wrath." Twenty-eight of those verses refer to the wrath of God (or Jesus against the unrighteous), one refers to the persecution of believers, and five refer to anger of people against each other. Therefore, whereas tribulation almost always refers to the persecution of believers, wrath almost always refers to the anger of God against the unrighteous that results in punishment.â€

The wrath of God is promised to Jerusaelm throughout OT scriptures. This wrath starts at the DOTL and begins with the invasion and destruction of Jerusalem. This day is also proceeded with signs (sun, moons and stars) and is also called a continuous day. After Jerusalem's destructions, scriptures state that the Lord then goes after those whom destroyed Jerusalem, in effect bringing His wrath to the rest of the world.

After God's wrath has been poured, He promised to make Jerusalem the center of worship for the world where King David, i.e. Christ will reign. Those who survive the wrath will pilgrimege to Zion to worship God. This occurs during the milleninal reign.

You say Jerusalem was beseiged for 42 months and that was the GT that Christ spoke of in Matt 24. Christ also states that this period was cut short, but you don't show how it was cut short. And more importantly, Christ states that immediately (not postponed) after the anguish of those days the sun will be darkened, the moon won't give light, the stars will will fall and the sign for the Son of Man will appear in the sky and all the people of the earth will mourn.

One would think history would have recorded this if it had already occured.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[Sinthesis]

And herein lies the one of the causes our of disagreement. I do not believe there are two "tribulations." In fact, I believe scriptures state the punishment that is to come to the Jews is called "vengance" or "wrath." And thru my studies, I have come to understand that tribulation and wrath, although two forms of anger, have two different meanings. It's like comparing apples and oranges...both are fruit but not the same. Here is some more information borrowed from a site called Godandscience.org.



The wrath of God is promised to Jerusaelm throughout OT scriptures. This wrath starts at the DOTL and begins with the invasion and destruction of Jerusalem. This day is also proceeded with signs (sun, moons and stars) and is also called a continuous day. After Jerusalem's destructions, scriptures state that the Lord then goes after those whom destroyed Jerusalem, in effect bringing His wrath to the rest of the world.

After God's wrath has been poured, He promised to make Jerusalem the center of worship for the world where King David, i.e. Christ will reign. Those who survive the wrath will pilgrimege to Zion to worship God. This occurs during the milleninal reign.

You say Jerusalem was beseiged for 42 months and that was the GT that Christ spoke of in Matt 24. Christ also states that this period was cut short, but you don't show how it was cut short. And more importantly, Christ states that immediately (not postponed) after the anguish of those days the sun will be darkened, the moon won't give light, the stars will will fall and the sign for the Son of Man will appear in the sky and all the people of the earth will mourn.

One would think history would have recorded this if it had already occured.

Blessings,
Dee

History has recorded all of it. When you realize it's not about you, the truth of it is blinding, yet allows you to see the continuing triumph of Jesus over the world in a totally new light.

 

[D4Christ]

History has recorded all of it. When you realize it's not about you, the truth of it is blinding, yet allows you to see the continuing triumph of Jesus over the world in a totally new light.

Thanks for that. If history has recorded the DOTL and the cosmic signs that go with it, in addition to the Son of Man appearing appearing in the sky causing all on earth to mourn, could you please cite me your sources. :D

Thanks,

Dee

 

[Sinthesis]

Thanks for that. If history has recorded the DOTL and the cosmic signs that go with it, in addition to the Son of Man appearing in the sky causing all on earth to mourn, could you please cite me your sources. :D

Thanks,

Dee

You could start with Josephus.

However remember, your:

• Expectations of the the "DOTL"
• Interpretation of the "cosmic signs"
• Understanding of "appearing" and "sky" regarding the Son of Man
• Meaning of the "earth"

are all, for lack of a better term, self-centered.:D

From the point of view of the God-fearing in the first century, experiencing the transition from Temple Judaism to Christianity, the symbolism is obvious.

 

[D4Christ]

You could start with Josephus.




However remember, your:

• Expectations of the the "DOTL"
• Interpretation of the "cosmic signs"
• Understanding of "appearing" and "sky" regarding the Son of Man
• Meaning of the "earth"

are all, for lack of a better term, self-centered.:D

From the point of view of the God-fearing in the first century, experiencing the transition from Temple Judaism to Christianity, the symbolism is obvious.

I think you need dig depper, search thru your vocabulary and find another term. I haven't repeated anything about the DOTL that I can't back up in scriptures. My expectations are based on what I read, not imagined. And speaking of scriptures, Christ, not me, stated that the earth would mourn when they saw the sign for the Son of Man in the sky.

Either you have proof of this event or you don't. If these events happened to the whole world, as scritpures have stated, then surely it would have been recorded by more than a Romano-Jewish historian. Surely others would have corroberated his accounts for this event would have been seen everywhere.

As you have stated, it's not about either of us. It is about the Truth that we all seek. So it would seem that you would want to provide links at least to prove that an historical event has occured, rather than point me to one historian and then not even reference at least one book or excerpt he wrote that proves your pov.

Thanks,
Dee

 

[Hitch]

Thanks for that. If history has recorded the DOTL and the cosmic signs that go with it, in addition to the Son of Man appearing appearing in the sky causing all on earth to mourn, could you please cite me your sources. :D

Thanks,

Dee

What passage says the Son of Man appearing appearing in the sky ?

 

[D4Christ]

What passage says the Son of Man appearing appearing in the sky ?

Thank you for noticing that glitch Hitch. I actually phrased it correctly in post #32 and #36 when I stated "the sign for the Son of Man in the sky."

Matt 24:

30 And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Blessings,

Dee

 

[Hitch]

The 'sign' that Christ was in heaven and therefor a true prophet was the destruction, possibly even a reference to smoke of the burning sacrifice. Lev 21;9

 

[Hitch]

I was hoping it would take longer to get so far from the topic,,,obviously no one of the local futurist camp cared to engage.