AnotherRaptureQuestion

[jasoncran]

i am not a full preterist like stormcrow.

the judgment that peter spoken off has yet to happen. the Flood is global not local. Peter spoke of that judgment.

 

[reba]

A piece of your post D4

This passage clearly states that whether dead or alive, believers will meet the Lord in the air. Then in regards to when this happens believers are told that they already know the DOTL will happen unexpectedly like a thief in the night. There is an obvious connection between the DOTL and the rapture.

I am interested in how you 'balance' your views with these Words of Christ.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

What comes after the last day?

 

[D4Christ]

It's patently clear in this passage (as it was in Luke's) who the "taken" are: those who were killed by the flood. This is NOT a passage about those who were saved from the flood, but those who were destroyed by it. And Christ compares His second coming to this very same event! It is about Christ's judgment falling on those who killed Him, NOT about taking the church out of tribulation.

Our disagreement is rooted in the fact that you erroneously think I believe that these passages are about taking the church out of the Great Tribulation. You couldn't be further from the truth. Imho, these passages confirm that the church will go thru the GT, which Christ specifically states he will shorten because if he didn't there would be no survivors. However, there is a big difference between the Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God uleashed in the DOTL. The word tribulation is usually a description of persecution of beleivers by non believers. Wrath, on the other hand, almost always describes the suffering of non believers at the hand of God. This is why Paul, after describing how believers will meet the Lord in the air, tells them 1) they won't be surprised at the DOTL and 2) to to be confident in their salvation because God will not pour His anger (that is coming with the DOTL) on them. Believers are leaving this earth. That's why Christ says:

30 And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet, and they will gather his chosen ones from all over the world—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.

Thess makes it clear the the rapture of believers coincides with the DOTL which catches non believers by surprise. And it is clear from scritpures describing the DOTL that it is an event unleashed on the earth. The DOTL starts with the destruction of Jerusalem and then spreads to the rest of the earth.

Zeph 1

14 “That terrible day of the Lordis near. Swiftly it comes—a day of bitter tears, a day when even strong men will cry out.
15 It will be a day when the Lord’s anger is poured out—a day of terrible distress and anguish, a day of ruin and desolation, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness,
16 a day of trumpet calls and battle cries. Down go the walled cities and the strongest battlements!

Yes, and what I'm trying to get you to see is that the Day of the Lord came upon Jerusalem when it was destroyed by the Romans. This is the "great tribulation" both Daniel and Christ point to: the end of God's unique covenental relationship with Israel.

The Day of the Lord is a future event. There are OT scriptures that speak about the past destruction of Jerusalem. However, scriptures that speak about how Jerusalem was destroyed in the past never reference the day of the Lord. On the other hand, the Day of the Lord passages almost always reference, not only the destruction of Jerusalem, but their restoration under one G-d with an unbroken peace. Let's also not ignore the fact that DOTL passages also talk God unleashing his wrath upon the world.

It is not that I do not recognize that Jerusalem has suffered similar fates in the past, but if their past destruction was part of the Day of the Lord, then it should follow that the promises of the DOTL (at least some of them ) would have been fulfilled.

The Day of the Lord is full of specifics. It is supposed to be a Day where is there is continuous light. Has this happened? No. Jerusalem is completely destroyed with no inhabitants. Has this happened? History shows that there has always been some human presence in Jerusalem. God will unleash his wrath on the enemies of Jerusalem….has this happened? No. Everyone who survives the DOTL will seek to be the friend of one Jew. Has this happened? No. Jerusalem will become the center of worship for the world? I don’t think so. How about Jerusalem will be restored as one nation under, one God and one King? Has this happened? No.

Furthermore, if you're going to look at sentence structure, then please tell me who the "we" are in I Thessalonians 4:13-18. (Hint: Paul wasn't writing this to us!)

With that logic the bible isn't for us period. Do you really expect Paul to say to his audience 'you guys and also those gentiles from the future?' But to answer your question, "we" refers to Paul, Silas and Timothy. They wrote this letter to the church of Thessalonica (1 Thess 1:1).

Who was this resurrection (not rapture) for? It's answered in Daniel:
I don't see a single mention of a single Gentile in this passage. God didn't have any covenants with the heathen nations surrounding Israel.

Why would Daniel be given a prophecy that specifically mentions Gentiles? How would he even understand that Christ had died for the sins of world and that all who accepted Christ would become God's children. The plan to unite Jews and Gentiles was kept secret from the beginning and only revealed thru Paul. Again...why would Daniel get the revelation that the resurrection would also include the gentiles?

Finally, (assuming you are pre-trib), what say you of these passages?

His second coming coincides with "the last day" which is a time of resurrection and judgment:

His second coming was not to "rapture" the church. It was to wage war on those who crucified Him, resurrect the holy and wicked alike, and judge them from "His glorious throne."

I am not pre-trib. I am pre-wrath....big difference. The Day of the Lord encompasses many aspect because scriptures tell us it is not a normal 24 hour day. It inlcudes the rapture of the church, God's wrath unleashed with the destruction of Jerusalem and the destruction of the nations who fought against Jerusalem, the restoration of Jerusalem from remnant, Jerusalem becoming the center of worship for the world, the millennium reign, the last attempt of Satan to destroy Jerusalem, the 2nd resurrection and 2nd death and the the Great White Throne Judgment.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[Sinthesis]

I accept the disclosure personally. How about you?

???

???

I doubt your personal disclosure is the right one.

 

[Sinthesis]

I am not pre-trib. I am pre-wrath....big difference. The Day of the Lord encompasses many aspect because scriptures tell us it is not a normal 24 hour day. It inlcudes the rapture of the church, God's wrath unleashed with the destruction of Jerusalem and the destruction of the nations who fought against Jerusalem, the restoration of Jerusalem from remnant, Jerusalem becoming the center of worship for the world, the millennium reign, the last attempt of Satan to destroy Jerusalem, the 2nd resurrection and 2nd death and the the Great White Throne Judgment.

Blessings,
Dee

If you have symbolic partial preterist eyes:puppydogeyes to see,
then you might perceive:

the rapture of the church - Done+-
God's wrath unleashed with the destruction of Jerusalem - Done
the destruction of the nations who fought against Jerusalem - Done
the restoration of Jerusalem from remnant - Done
Jerusalem becoming the center of worship for the world - Done started
the millennium reign - Done started
the last attempt of Satan:devil to destroy Jerusalem - Done started
the 2nd resurrection and 2nd death and the Great White Throne Judgment - Incoming!+-

 

[jasoncran]

If you have symbolic partial preterist eyes:puppydogeyes to see,
then you might perceive:

the rapture of the church - Done+-
God's wrath unleashed with the destruction of Jerusalem - Done
the destruction of the nations who fought against Jerusalem - Done
the restoration of Jerusalem from remnant - Done
Jerusalem becoming the center of worship for the world - Done started
the millennium reign - Done started
the last attempt of Satan:devil to destroy Jerusalem - Done started
the 2nd resurrection and 2nd death and the Great White Throne Judgment - Incoming!+-

never mind. i disagree with that but i have enough of those talks.


hmm let seee dee why do you say that idea of isreal must be a physical one with her being the light of the nations?

if we are that light and reign in the millenium what is that point?

 

[D4Christ]

A piece of your post D4

I am interested in how you 'balance' your views with these Words of Christ.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

What comes after the last day?

What becomes evident to me when studying scriptures is there are actually 2 resurrections. The 1st resurrection is that of believers only...what is commonly called the raputure. Beleivers who make this resurrection don't have to worry about the possiblity of being judged unto damnation. That is why Rev 20 states:

5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.

The 2nd resurrection occurs after the millennium reign. All the dead...those who died from the beginning of time (and did not accept Christ) and those who died during the wrath (inlcuding those who were enemies of the cross and those who accepted Christ during the wrath)....are called from the grave and judged according to their deeds. It is possible for some in this 2nd resurrection to be thrown into the lake of fire, which is why scriptures state blessed are those who are part of the 1st resurrection because they are all believers who will not taste the lake of fire. This is also called the Great White Throne judgment.

11 And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. 12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. 14 Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. 15 And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.

It interesting to me that the NLT version reads John 12:48 as the "day of judgment." It would be interesting to find out what these scholars saw that made them translate judgment rather than last day. But nevertheless, the DOTL includes both resurrections, the wrath, the destruction of death and the grave, the millennium and the great white throne.

The DOTL is truly the last day because scriptures state it will be one continuous day.

Zech 14

1 Watch, for the day of the Lord is coming when your possessions will be plundered right in front of you! ...6 On that day the sources of light will no longer shine, 7 yet there will be continuous day! Only the Lord knows how this could happen. There will be no normal day and night, for at evening time it will still be light.

After the Great White Throne Judgment, when death and grave are thrown in the lake of fire, New Jerusalem is revealed...finally but well worth the wait! It would seem that the DOTL is over. That is why in Rev 20 it says everything is being made new.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[Hitch]

Its not as though Jesus knows anything about resurrection...:toofunny

 

[Hitch]

Are any absurdities beyond the millennialists?

 

[theLords]

Why would Daniel be given a prophecy that specifically mentions Gentiles? How would he even understand that Christ had died for the sins of world and that all who accepted Christ would become God's children. The plan to unite Jews and Gentiles was kept secret from the beginning and only revealed thru Paul. Again...why would Daniel get the revelation that the resurrection would also include the gentiles?

And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. Isaiah 49:6

 

[reba]

What becomes evident to me when studying scriptures is there are actually 2 resurrections. The 1st resurrection is that of believers only...what is commonly called the raputure. Beleivers who make this resurrection don't have to worry about the possiblity of being judged unto damnation. That is why Rev 20 states:

The words of Jesus
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Seems to me Christ puts the 2 resurrections into one hour. The teaching you posts puts them a millennium apart. Jesus says He is the Resurrection and the Life i will trust His words on the subject.

The 2nd resurrection occurs after the millennium reign. All the dead...those who died from the beginning of time (and did not accept Christ) and those who died during the wrath (inlcuding those who were enemies of the cross and those who accepted Christ during the wrath)....are called from the grave and judged according to their deeds. It is possible for some in this 2nd resurrection to be thrown into the lake of fire, which is why scriptures state blessed are those who are part of the 1st resurrection because they are all believers who will not taste the lake of fire. This is also called the Great White Throne judgment.



It interesting to me that the NLT version reads John 12:48 as the "day of judgment." It would be interesting to find out what these scholars saw that made them translate judgment rather than last day. But nevertheless, the DOTL includes both resurrections, the wrath, the destruction of death and the grave, the millennium and the great white throne.

The DOTL is truly the last day because scriptures state it will be one continuous day.

Zech 14


After the Great White Throne Judgment, when death and grave are thrown in the lake of fire, New Jerusalem is revealed...finally but well worth the wait! It would seem that the DOTL is over. That is why in Rev 20 it says everything is being made new.

Blessings,
Dee

Here in John i see Jesus has placed the resurrection of the good & evil in the same hour. Then goes on to show us it is the last day.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus says the last day :
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: a nd I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

He did not correct Martha when she said: Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

 

[D4Christ]

If you have symbolic partial preterist eyes:puppydogeyes to see,
then you might perceive:

the rapture of the church - Done+-
God's wrath unleashed with the destruction of Jerusalem - Done
the destruction of the nations who fought against Jerusalem - Done
the restoration of Jerusalem from remnant - Done
Jerusalem becoming the center of worship for the world - Done started
the millennium reign - Done started
the last attempt of Satan:devil to destroy Jerusalem - Done started
the 2nd resurrection and 2nd death and the Great White Throne Judgment - Incoming!+-

You mean I have already been changed with the twinkling of an eye and this is all I've got....not thanks.

The wrath of God done....really But God promised Jerusalem would live in safety, free from harm and fear. I guess somebody has forgotten to tell those terrorist who keep kidnapping soldiers and blowing up city buses.

The milliennium reign has started. Wow! So Christ is sitting on the throne in Jerusalem. When is the last time you can cite that a muslem nation went to Zion to worship? Oh that's right every word in scripture is a symbol of something else.

Question...isn't God smart enought to tell us when he's using symbolism, metaphor, stories or simile? I have seen plenty of examples in the scriptures explaining symbolism. But God got it wrong when he says we will meet, him in the air, or get new bodies, Israel will worship one God, live in peace, be the center of worship and have no walls. So if the bible isn't smart enough to explain its own symbols who should we listen to?

What I don't understand is if I all/most of the prophecies of the bible have already been completed or are the product of some obscure symbolism that only the deep and well read can understand...and the end result is what we are left with in 2010, why would anybody even bother with Chrsitianity?

To each his own,
Dee

 

[Hitch]

You mean I have already been changed with the twinkling of an eye and this is all I've got....not thanks.

The wrath of God done....really But God promised Jerusalem would live in safety, free from harm and fear. I guess somebody has forgotten to tell those terrorist who keep kidnapping soldiers and blowing up city buses.

The milliennium reign has started. Wow! So Christ is sitting on the throne in Jerusalem. When is the last time you can cite that a muslem nation went to Zion to worship? Oh that's right every word in scripture is a symbol of something else.

Question...isn't God smart enought to tell us when he's using symbolism, metaphor, stories or simile? I have seen plenty of examples in the scriptures explaining symbolism. But God got it wrong when he says we will meet, him in the air, or get new bodies, Israel will worship one God, live in peace, be the center of worship and have no walls. So if the bible isn't smart enough to explain its own symbols who should we listen to?

What I don't understand is if I all/most of the prophecies of the bible have already been completed or are the product of some obscure symbolism that only the deep and well read can understand...and the end result is what we are left with in 2010, why would anybody even bother with Chrsitianity?

To each his own,
Dee

What is the point of pretending to be a literalist?


Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[D4Christ]

The words of Jesus
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Seems to me Christ puts the 2 resurrections into one hour. The teaching you posts puts them a millennium apart. Jesus says He is the Resurrection and the Life i will trust His words on the subject.

Ok...why don't we quote more...

Rev 20

4 Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)

I did not make this up. Does it say or not say that the rest of the dead did not rise until after 1,000 years? What do you think the difference is between the 1st and the 2nd resurrection?

Here in John i see Jesus has placed the resurrection of the good & evil in the same hour. Then goes on to show us it is the last day.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus says the last day :
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: a nd I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

He did not correct Martha when she said: Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

I do not doubt that the resurrection that occurs after the millenium includes both the good and the evil, within the same hour or at the same time. These people were not part of the 1st resurrection as scriptures state. Some may get thrown in the lake of fire...some may receive life. Scriptures state that those in the 1st resurrection recieve life only.

That being said all of these things take place in the last day. And it is my understanding that the last day is the DOTL, which is part of one continous day with no sunrise or sunset...so a lot of things are going on.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[reba]

The words of Jesus in John are not figurative Thes word in Revelation sorta start out with I john in the spirit saw.. as in a vision

I would try and fit The words in the Revelation to the point blank words of Christ.

To my thinking it just makes more sense to fit what we know to be a spirit state (Vision) of mind/heart,The Revelation, into the solid literal words of Christ. The old adage of what we can take to be literal take it.....

Hey we do agree that the last day is just that the last day :yes

The first resurrection. Were we not dead in sin and resurrected. Has not He taken us from death to life? Are we to reign in life?

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Thanks for reading my posts and thanks for your thoughts also.

 

[Hitch]

The words of Jesus in John are not figurative Thes word in Revelation sorta start out with I john in the spirit saw.. as in a vision

I would try and fit The words in the Revelation to the point blank words of Christ.

To my thinking it just makes more sense to fit what we know to be a spirit state (Vision) of mind/heart,The Revelation, into the solid literal words of Christ. The old adage of what we can take to be literal take it.....

Hey we do agree that the last day is just that the last day :yes

The first resurrection. Were we not dead in sin and resurrected. Has not He taken us from death to life? Are we to reign in life?

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Thanks for reading my posts and thanks for your thoughts also.

And so every blessing associated with 'the first resurrection' is applicable to the living believer today.

There is just no way to arrive at a workable scriptural eschatology based on denying what Jesus had to say about the resurrection, but it is hilarious that in almost every case it is the futurist/literalist who are the worst offenders.

 

[D4Christ]

Thanks for reading my posts and thanks for your thoughts also.

Same here. It's nice to exchange pov's without being ridiculed. I pray we all continue to learn and grow as we seek His Truth. :nod

Dee

 

[Stormcrow]

Imho, these passages confirm that the church will go thru the GT, which Christ specifically states he will shorten because if he didn't there would be no survivors. However, there is a big difference between the Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God uleashed in the DOTL.

First of all, the "great tribulation" of Matthew 24:21 is the Day of the Lord, and the tribulation of believers is a sign of it! Look at these passages again:

{17} "But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues; {18} and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. {21} "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. {22} "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. {23} "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:17-23 (NASB)

This is the same "tribulation" Christ talks about when He says that not all of them would be killed: He's talking to His disciples in Matthew 16:

{24} Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. {25} "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. {26} "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? {27} "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. {28} "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:24-28 (NASB)

Again, He relates His second coming to judgment and wrath! His "coming in His kingdom" is the "day of the Lord."

Now look at Matthew 23:

{34} "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,

(These are the disciples/apostles Christ will send to them after Pentecost, when they are imbued with the power of the Holy Spirit. Christ is telling the chief priests, scribes, and Pharisees the same thing He told His disciples about their coming tribulation and tells these rulers that apostolic, innocent blood will be held against them!)

{35} so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. {36} "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

{37} "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. {38} "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! Matthew 23:34-38 (NASB)

Christ is clearly saying here that the persecution -the "tribulation - the Jews bring against His apostles is one of the things that will lead to the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple: God's wrath poured out on Jerusalem is the Day of the Lord!

And again, this is verified in Matthew 24: the tribulation of believers is a sign of the great tribulation Jerusalem will face!

{8} "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. {9} "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. {10} "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Matthew 24:8-10 (NASB)

In fact, the tribulation of believers is one of the last signs to come before the "great tribulation" (God's wrath, Day of the Lord) that befalls Jerusalem!

{15} "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), {16} then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. {17} "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. {18} "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. {19} "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! {20} "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. {21} "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. {22} "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Matthew 24:15-22 (NASB)

There are two periods of time in which the siege of Jerusalem was "cut short" for the sake of the elect, so that they could flee as Christ instructed. The first, when Cestius Gallus, Roman leader of the 12th Legion, began the siege but inexplicably refused to enter the city when invited into it by those who wanted no war with Rome. His retreat to Antioch cost most of the lives of his legion.

Nero then appointed Vespasian to finish quelling the Jewish rebellion. The second respite for the Jews inside besieged Jerusalem came when Vespasian was declared emperor - by his legions - bringing to an end the civil war that erupted in the Roman Empire after the death of Nero. Vespasian retired to Egypt for a time before going to Rome to assume the title of Caesar and put his son Titus in charge of besieging Jerusalem.

With the notable exception of Noah's flood, God has always used Gentile nations to punish Israel for her disobedience. Christ used Rome in 70 AD to do to Jerusalem what God did to it in 587 BC using the Babylonians! Just as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and a number of other OT prophets point to the OT destruction of Jerusalem in judgment for its disobedience, so too was Christ prophesying of Jerusalem's destruction at the hands of the Romans and set it all against the backdrop of His second coming! That's what the "great tribulation" of Matthew 24:21 means!

Christ was telling His disciples that they needed to flee Jerusalem before this "great tribulation" befell it! That was the whole point of the verses 15-28.

Of course you are free to believe anything you wish, but this is where my study of the Word has lead me.

 

[D4Christ]

I suppose our difference in understanding Great Tribulation versus Wrath is where you and I will continue to differ. Although we do seem to be saying some of the same things. For I understand that the DOTL is a day of God's vengance/wrath. God's wrath begins in Jerusalem where He pours out His anger on the city as stated in many OT scritpures.

But I believe that the GT is suffered by anyone who professess Christ...and that the warning was given to people in Jerusalem to flee in Matthew, not because Jews were being persecuted specifically but because Christ was speaking to members of His original Church...Jews who received Christ. Anyone refusing to worship the beast will be hunted by the beast...its a world-wide event and not just local to Jerusalem.

I find it interesting though that the OT scriptures speak so specifically about the DOTL, when it starts, who is affected and more importantly the signs that announce the DOTL event. In Matt 24 the GT preceeds the signs that announce the DOTL....so how could the GT be the DOTL (i.e. wrath) when the signs for the DOTL haven't taken place. I believe scriptures state, "immediately after the anguish of those days..." and then lists all the signs the OT prophets said would announce the DOTL.

But then again....our veiws differ so wildly that the simplicity of how I see things looks backwards to you and vice versa. There is a disconnect somewhere in the core of what we believe that makes coming to common ground difficult. It would probably require therapy to uncover the root of where we go our separate ways....;) At least we are studying and trying to understand...that's more than what we can say for most of the church.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[Stormcrow]

But I believe that the GT is suffered by anyone who professess Christ...

You're conflating the tribulation of believers with the "great tribulation" of Jerusalem. Christ told His disciples to flee the city before the "great tribulation" so they wouldn't go through it. Eusebius records that believers fled to Pella in the Jordanian hills - across the Jordan River - during these lulls in the siege I mentioned before.

By the way, this is the same admonition the risen Christ gives to John for the seven churches:

{4} I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; {5} for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. {6} "Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her. {7} "To the degree that she glorified herself and lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, 'I SIT as A QUEEN AND I AM NOT A WIDOW, and will never see mourning.' {8} "For this reason in one day [the Day of the Lord] her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong. Revelation 18:4-8 (NASB)

Yes - tribulation continues for believers to this very day. But the "great tribulation" of Jerusalem lasted only three and a half years. This is the "great tribulation" seen about to occur in Revelation 18:4-8.

The "Day of the Lord" is a Hebrew idiom for a time of judgment. It is not a literal day.

...and that the warning was given to people in Jerusalem to flee in Matthew, not because Jews were being persecuted specifically but because Christ was speaking to members of His original Church...Jews who received Christ.

Yes.

Anyone refusing to worship the beast will be hunted by the beast...its a world-wide event and not just local to Jerusalem.

There were two persecutions that arose against the church in the first century. The first came at the hands of the Jews, and it's the tribulation that began with the stoning of Stephen, as indicated in Acts:

{1} Saul was in hearty agreement with putting him [Stephen] to death. And on that day a great persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. Acts 8:1 (NASB)

The second persecution (tribulation of believers) began in late 64 AD by Nero, who made Christians scapegoats for the fire that almost destroyed Rome. Nero's persecution of the church lasted 42 months, from the fall of 64 to the spring of 68, when he took his own life.

Christians are still persecuted in various pagan nations today, but the beast spoken of in Revelation, who would "make war with the saints for 42 months and overcome them", was Nero.

I realize this is hard to accept. It was hard for me to believe. But once you begin to understand that Christ was born under the Old Covenant and that those rules of the Old Covenant still applied to Israel after His death, then you begin to see His second coming in an entirely new light. It's never been about us. It was always about "executing vengeance for the covenant."

Please read the following to see the basis for His words:

{14} 'But if you do not obey Me and do not carry out all these commandments, {15} if, instead, you reject My statutes, and if your soul abhors My ordinances so as not to carry out all My commandments, and so break My covenant, {16} I, in turn, will do this to you: I will appoint over you a sudden terror, consumption and fever that will waste away the eyes and cause the soul to pine away; also, you will sow your seed uselessly, for your enemies will eat it up.

{17} ~'I will set My face against you so that you will be struck down before your enemies; and those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee when no one is pursuing you.

{18} ~'If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. {19} ~'I will also break down your pride of power; I will also make your sky like iron and your earth like bronze. {20} ~'Your strength will be spent uselessly, for your land will not yield its produce and the trees of the land will not yield their fruit.

{21} 'If then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. {22} ~'I will let loose among you the beasts of the field, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted.

{23} 'And if by these things you are not turned to Me, but act with hostility against Me, {24} then I will act with hostility against you; and I, even I, will strike you seven times for your sins. {25} ~'I will also bring upon you a sword which will execute vengeance for the covenant; and when you gather together into your cities, I will send pestilence among you, so that you shall be delivered into enemy hands. {26} ~'When I break your staff of bread, ten women will bake your bread in one oven, and they will bring back your bread in rationed amounts, so that you will eat and not be satisfied.

{27} 'Yet if in spite of this you do not obey Me, but act with hostility against Me, {28} then I will act with wrathful hostility against you, and I, even I, will punish you seven times for your sins. {29} ~'Further, you will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters you will eat. {30} ~'I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols, for My soul shall abhor you. {31} ~'I will lay waste your cities as well and will make your sanctuaries desolate, and I will not smell your soothing aromas. {32} ~'I will make the land desolate so that your enemies who settle in it will be appalled over it. {33} ~'You, however, I will scatter among the nations and will draw out a sword after you, as your land becomes desolate and your cities become waste. Leviticus 26:14-33 (NASB)

Is there any greater act of hostility against God than what the chief priests did to Him when they called for His Son to be crucified?

{19} While he [Pilate] was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent him a message, saying, "Have nothing to do with that righteous Man; for last night I suffered greatly in a dream because of Him." {20} But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowds to ask for Barabbas and to put Jesus to death. {21} But the governor said to them, "Which of the two do you want me to release for you?" And they said, "Barabbas." {22} Pilate *said to them, "Then what shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?" They all *said, "Crucify Him!" {23} And he said, "Why, what evil has He done?" But they kept shouting all the more, saying, "Crucify Him!" Matthew 27:19-23 (NASB)

{24} When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but rather that a riot was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this Man's blood; see to that yourselves." {25} And all the people said, "His blood shall be on us and on our children!" Matthew 27:24-25 (NASB)

The people of Jerusalem called down God's wrath - His vengeance - on their own heads and those of their children.

Vengeance for the covenant: that's what Christ was trying to tell them when He entered Jerusalem for His last Passover and they wouldn't listen.