AnotherRaptureQuestion

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There has been provided to all of us in scripture by the Words of Jesus the WAY to understand 'parables.'

Many of the 'end times' or 'rapture' 'wrath' 'destruction' themes are put forth in parables.

Parables should instantly take one 'off' purely physical observations of these matters as the intent of parables are to make 'associations.'

Anyone stepping onto the ground of understanding 'parables' should be armed with certain facts to understand same.

Revelation is viewed by most to be parabolic or associative in conveyance. Jesus gave us 'all' a very big clue as to how to dissect them.

So, for any who have an interest, look at thee Key of His Words for understandings.

Mark 4:13
And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

The parable(s) of the Sower is the most basic of all the parables and must be deployed to understand all parables.

So, logically, what are the components of the parables of the Sower? They are right there in the open for viewing:

Mark 4 continues:
14 The sower soweth the word. 15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
21 And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick?
22 For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.
23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.



Now, the very first thing that comes into the mind of any believer when reading such parables is this, and you yourself can internally testify to this fact. When you read the above, the first thing that comes to your mind is that you are a good seed, or that the Word is the Good Seed planted in your heart. And that is basically correct understanding. God has given you that understanding. The second thing is then your 'effort' to 'put forth fruit.' Again, solid understanding.


What everyone misses however is the very first fact of the parable. The fact is that where the Word is sown, that is 'in people,' THEN Satan arrives in the hearts of those in whom it is planted to resist.


Very very few people can take that information personally, but if you read the fact you will see 'why' the efforts of fruitful production are inhibited, because of the workings of Satan.


To make this short I'll cut to the chase.


If you want to understand 'all parables' then at least get 'all the components' downpat and put away the 'instant self justification' routine. You have factually missed the entire point of all parables.


The components of every parable are these.


God/Man/Devils


If you do not have these three basic components in your arsenal of understandings you will never, and I mean never, understand any of them.


Now, go to any parable, in this case regarding the 'end times' and the logical conclusion that you should make is that there will be a final separation between you and the resistor, the cause of 'internal sin' who is Satan.


This basic structure is why full preterism is totally lame. Holders do not even have 1/3rd of the component of understandings and instead focuses on some limited amount of Jews that lived in 70 a.d.



The fact is that in all of them the Word was sown and 'who' derailed them and 'why' were they judged?


Well, that would be because they were all sinners corrupted by Satan internally and Satan 'in them was judged just as it will be in the Revelation.


Do some homework. It's not that hard to dissect. The rapture or Revelation is no different than Mark 4's statements. The foundation of hope of the Gospel is for God to remove our sins and our sins are linked to Satan.


Thanks for reading. You have my best hopes for understandings!


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[Hitch]

Was the rapture imminent in April of 1948?

It is perfectly clear ,the pre-tribulationists dont want to touch this issue.

Can you blame them?

 

[reba]

Gee Hitch just add 40 years for a generation!

 

[Old Seer]

No one is going anywhere.

Was the rapture imminent in April of 1948?

Interpret "air" as spirit. They will be caught up in the spirit, not the material atmosphere. Air=spirit. The rest you can figure for yourself. Proper Christianity doesn't deal with material or physical concepts as it's base.

 

[Sinthesis]

You mean I have already been changed with the twinkling of an eye and this is all I've got....not thanks.

First, it's not about you and what you get.
Second, if you weren't changed when you became a Christian then you need to assess what it is you believe. Is it a spectacular change? Not necessarily, but it is a change that marks you for the rest of your earthly life as one given to struggle against the tide of the ways of the world. Yet regardless, you will be changed at your physical death.

The wrath of God done....really But God promised Jerusalem would live in safety, free from harm and fear. I guess somebody has forgotten to tell those terrorist who keep kidnapping soldiers and blowing up city buses.

Wrath of God for the Jews first, then the Gentiles. Where? When? In what way do you want security beyond what you have in Christ as a citizen of the New Jerusalem?

You mean the Muslims don't believe in the Gospel? ;)
The question is, "Do you, as a Christian, fear death as much as a Muslim fears the God they do not know?"

The milliennium reign has started. Wow! So Christ is sitting on the throne in Jerusalem. When is the last time you can cite that a muslem nation went to Zion to worship? Oh that's right every word in scripture is a symbol of something else.

Yes it has! Christ is enthroned in the New Jerusalem we know as Christianity.

Oh irony. Islam is pagan-values-worship trying to claim the mantle of the Judeo-Christian inheritance. They attempt to give glory to the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob but fail miserably because they try in the spirit of satan.

Question...isn't God smart enought to tell us when he's using symbolism, metaphor, stories or simile? I have seen plenty of examples in the scriptures explaining symbolism. But God got it wrong when he says we will meet, him in the air, or get new bodies, Israel will worship one God, live in peace, be the center of worship and have no walls. So if the bible isn't smart enough to explain its own symbols who should we listen to?

P-A-R-A-B-L-E

meet Him in the air = conformed to Him in this life and the next
Glorified body as part of your inheritance after your current one dies.
Is Israel pagan today?
Is your personal peace circumstantial?
Why does it seem like every other religion tries to reconcile itself to some aspect of Christianity?
Do you think walls protect you?
The Bible is smart enough to explain it's own symbols. Who are you listening to?

What I don't understand is if I all/most of the prophecies of the bible have already been completed or are the product of some obscure symbolism that only the deep and well read can understand...and the end result is what we are left with in 2010, why would anybody even bother with Chrsitianity?

Are you really only in it for what you can get, rather than what you can give to others in His name?

The symbolism is there, but it is only visible through the lenses of Christian optimism, and there is no doubt in my mind that the world has been getting better for the last two thousand years.

To each his own,
Dee

I'm just trying to give you access to another perspective on Biblical prophecy.

 

[reba]

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Asking about grammar.
Does the grammar of the passage say we will always be in the clouds?

 

[Hitch]

Are you and OLD person ??

 

[reba]

YES!

 

[turnorburn]

AnotherRaptureQuestion Answered

I thought this was settled

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

turnorburn

 

[reba]

Gen 37:8 And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.
Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

 

[Stormcrow]

Re: AnotherRaptureQuestion Answered

I thought this was settled

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

I'm glad you brought this up. Many people point to this passage (29-30) as the rapture of the church. I used to as well. However, this is a case where knowing the Old Testament can help us understand the New.

The language used in verse 29 is hyperbole (exaggeration to make a point), and it's not the first time it was used for this purpose:

{6} Wail, for the day of the LORD is near! It will come as destruction from the Almighty. Isaiah 13:6 (NASB)

{9} Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, To make the land a desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it. Isaiah 13:9 (NASB)

{10} For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises And the moon will not shed its light. Isaiah 13:10 (NASB)

{13} Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, And the earth will be shaken from its place At the fury of the LORD of hosts In the day of His burning anger. Isaiah 13:13 (NASB)

Isaiah here is writing about the judgment God was about to bring upon Babylon via the Medes.

Jeremiah uses similar language to prophesy against Judah before Babylon besieged and destroyed Jerusalem (and her Temple) and carried her people into captivity:

{12} "Be appalled, O heavens, at this, And shudder, be very desolate," declares the LORD. {13} "For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, The fountain of living waters, To hew for themselves cisterns, Broken cisterns That can hold no water. Jeremiah 2:12-13 (NASB)

{27} For thus says the LORD, "The whole land shall be a desolation, Yet I will not execute a complete destruction. {28} "For this the earth shall mourn And the heavens above be dark, Because I have spoken, I have purposed, And I will not change My mind, nor will I turn from it." Jeremiah 4:27-28 (NASB)

Ezekiel uses similar language to prophesy against Egypt:

{7} "And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light. {8} "All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land," Declares the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 32:7-8 (NASB)

So when Christ says to His disciples:

{29} "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Matthew 24:29 (NASB)

He is actually using the same language the prophets of the OT used to prophesy of God's judgment against a nation, including Israel. In this case, Christ is prophesying against Jerusalem and the generation that would crucify Him, as seen here:

{37} "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. {38} "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! Matthew 23:37-38 (NASB)

So up to this point (verse 29) Christ has been talking about judgment (the great tribulation of Jerusalem in verse 21) and suddenly, in verse 30, He starts talking about the church being raptured??? Nope. Verse 30 tells us who's going to execute this judgment upon Jerusalem:

24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 5 shows us Christ (the Lamb that was slain) opening the seals that unleash this terrible judgment.

Revelation 14 shows us what this next verse means:

24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

{1} Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. Revelation 14:1 (NASB)

These are the elect:

{4} And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: Revelation 7:4 (NASB)

Not the church: the elected remnant of Israel.

The judgment of Jerusalem fell upon the generation that crucified Him, just as He said it would. His coming "in the clouds" was in judgment upon them. It was not to rapture the church. And it happened in 70 AD.

Sorry for the long post, but this needs to be written over and over until people start seeing that the miracle of prophecy isn't perpetual delay, but past fulfillment.

 

[Stormcrow]

Oh, and when you think about it, the elect probably were raptured to Mt. Zion in exactly the same way Philip was taken away from the Ethiopian eunuch:

{39} When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing. {40} But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he kept preaching the gospel to all the cities until he came to Caesarea. Acts 8:39-40 (NASB)

According to this passage, Philip was instantly transported by the Spirit from Gaza to Ashdod (Azotus), a distance of about 20 miles. Gaza lies southwest of Jerusalem, Azotus is almost due west.