any evangelical non Dispensationalist here?

[Ginger]

Any posters here (don't believe in the left behind novels to simplify things LOL)? I have found since moving to the US that most evangelical churches heavily are. Speaking to Christians here they have never even been told there are other evangelical (not wacky) beliefs re eschatology. :o

I believe in the 2nd coming of Christ one and one time only (no secret rapture etc). I learned a long time never to get 'into it' with a Dispensationalist as personally IMO thats all they seem to be able to talk about or want to argue a point. Reason why I am saying that is I am not looking for a long involved debate 8-)
And I am more interested in building up the Church and finding common ground. (I realise this post may seem I am arguing - I don't want it to come across that way : )

I just wondered by a show of posts are there many out there like me, then maybe I won't feel so alone in Church when they are discussing matters :

 

[turnorburn]

Its about time, another Christian that believes what the bible says :-D

 

[Vic C.]

Any posters here (don't believe in the left behind novels to simplify things LOL)? I have found since moving to the US that most evangelical churches heavily are. Speaking to Christians here they have never even been told there are other evangelical (not wacky) beliefs re eschatology. :o

I believe in the 2nd coming of Christ one and one time only (no secret rapture etc). I learned a long time never to get 'into it' with a Dispensationalist as personally IMO thats all they seem to be able to talk about or want to argue a point. Reason why I am saying that is I am not looking for a long involved debate 8-)
And I am more interested in building up the Church and finding common ground. (I realise this post may seem I am arguing - I don't want it to come across that way : )

I just wondered by a show of posts are there many out there like me, then maybe I won't feel so alone in Church when they are discussing matters :

Look around the End Times Forum. You'll find us. (hint)

My personal belief about teaching something as controversial as End Times in a Service setting...

It shouldn't be done. Leave it to Bible study groups and make it as nonpartisan as possible.

 

[Drew]

Any posters here (don't believe in the left behind novels to simplify things LOL)? I have found since moving to the US that most evangelical churches heavily are. Speaking to Christians here they have never even been told there are other evangelical (not wacky) beliefs re eschatology.

I believe there will be no rapture and that the whole rapture concept is based on a misreading of Paul and his use of language in that famous 1 Thessalonians text.

So you are not alone. But I am not an American, and I have the sense that belief in the rapture is particularly strong among American evangelicals.

 

[Ginger]

:-D Yeah - great so there are a few of us LOL.

 

[turnorburn]

Look around the End Times Forum. You'll find us. (hint)

My personal belief about teaching something as controversial as End Times in a Service setting...

It shouldn't be done. Leave it to Bible study groups and make it as nonpartisan as possible.

This argument about who has the right version is too silly to begin with, the yo-yo that started
this dribble is sitting there with a Cheshire Cat's grin on his/her puss counting his/her money.
It boils down to this if your ready your on the Lords side if you aren't ready :onfire:

 

[Ginger]

Look around the End Times Forum. You'll find us. (hint)

My personal belief about teaching something as controversial as End Times in a Service setting...

It shouldn't be done. Leave it to Bible study groups and make it as nonpartisan as possible.

This argument about who has the right version is too silly to begin with, the yo-yo that started
this dribble is sitting there with a Cheshire Cat's grin on his/her puss counting his/her money.
It boils down to this if your ready your on the Lords side if you aren't ready :onfire:

Well I didn't want to troll through all the 'what do the horsemen or whatever mean in Revelation' to find us :wink:

I agree, that is what is important - the Lord is coming back and are we ready, and concentrate on how to outreach to our friends etc.

 

[destiny]

Ginger, I believe Christians will go through the tribulation period and will be removed at some point before God pours out His wrath. I see scripture that confirms this.
How exactly God removes us from the earth is a mystery to me and isn't out-right detailed in scripture.
It's too tiring and nonessential to argue over that part of it. ;-)

 

[sheshisown]

Look around the End Times Forum. You'll find us. (hint)

My personal belief about teaching something as controversial as End Times in a Service setting...

It shouldn't be done. Leave it to Bible study groups and make it as nonpartisan as possible.

Is this because end times teaching is so controversial as Torb suggests? Or is there a scripture that teaches us to be cautious about how it is taught that I am missing? How can a teacher make the teaching non partisan if they hold a particular belief? I'm not trying to be factious in this discussion I really want to know, its entirely possible that I don't know all the word says on "this" subject. I have not studied it much.

thanks bonnie

 

[Vic C.]

Look around the End Times Forum. You'll find us. (hint)

My personal belief about teaching something as controversial as End Times in a Service setting...

It shouldn't be done. Leave it to Bible study groups and make it as nonpartisan as possible.

Is this because end times teaching is so controversial as Torb suggests? Or is there a scripture that teaches us to be cautious about how it is taught that I am missing? How can a teacher make the teaching non partisan if they hold a particular belief? I'm not trying to be factious in this discussion I really want to know, its entirely possible that I don't know all the word says on "this" subject. I have not studied it much.

thanks bonnie

It's because there are so many views on this subject and so many interpretations. A teacher, despite his personal end times beliefs, should be able to teach all feasible End Times positions. He should know all the positions anyway, to better help him decide if his position is "correct". Honestly, if a teacher is pushing his personal beliefs, he isn't really teaching, is he?

Our Sunday school instructors had no problems presenting several positions withing interjecting their own beliefs.

Understand, I'm talking in the context of church Bible study. What one chooses to teach outside of a church environment is up to him. There was a popular End Times teacher by the name of John Walvoord, who once said, there is no End Times position that is 100% correct. He said this despite his pretribulational beliefs.

These are my opinions. 8-)

 

[tig]

Any posters here (don't believe in the left behind novels to simplify things LOL)? I have found since moving to the US that most evangelical churches heavily are. Speaking to Christians here they have never even been told there are other evangelical (not wacky) beliefs re eschatology.

I believe there will be no rapture and that the whole rapture concept is based on a misreading of Paul and his use of language in that famous 1 Thessalonians text.

So you are not alone. But I am not an American, and I have the sense that belief in the rapture is particularly strong among American evangelicals.

Ginger and Drew,

I am from America and grew up in a Baptist church where I first became committed to seeking a relationship with God through Christ. But was somewhat dissatisfied when, after the Marine Corps, went to a hard core bible college that seemed to focus more on scaring people with the message of turnorburn than having a relationship with God because he loved them immensly as a Father does his children (as Paul stated when speaking to the men of Athens, who were idol worshippers, and confirmed that they were indeed the 'offspring of God' -Acts 17 message of the unknown God).

I must agree with Drew, though I don't know his whole mind, that the message of 1 Thes. chapters 4 and 5 have seemed to be grossly misconstrued as a rapture of only a certain few, or a certain group, or that this coming is a 'one time' event. If 1 Thes 4 and 5 are read in context with a clear head it seems certain that this 2nd coming of Christ is no more than, when at ones death (the death of the flesh), Christ comes to receive their spirits. Some are asleep in Christ, or should I say dead in Christ, or ignorant of Christ in unbelief when he comes at the death of the flesh, they then must be awakened before they ascend to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall they ever be with the Lord. We who are aware or awake, or should I say, alive in Christ and remain unto the coming of the Lord, will be caught up together with them to be with the Lord and will in no way prevent those who are asleep in unbelief from being caught up to be with the Lord also.

Chapter 5 of 1 Thessalonians gives us the definition of those who are asleep in the Lord (though all our lives we have been taught they are the ones who died having believed in Christ), but they are the children of darkness (people who can't see because darkness has blinded their eyes) thus the command to 'Therefore let us not sleep, as others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.' (1 thes 5: 6-7). Paul would not be giving the command to not die, he was giving the command to not be in unbelief of God's gift of eternal life that was Jesus' message, and thus the admonition in vs. 9 'For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.'

Paul was certain that he would be alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, for I am persuaded by reading his writings that he believed the 2nd coming of the Lord was when the Lord came for us at the death of our flesh. Most people will be asleep in the Lord at his 2nd coming, but Paul comforted the believers that they (the unbelievers) also would be awakened when their flesh died and they, the unbelievers, would ascend to be with the Lord also, as would we who believe in the Lord now.

None of us have a reason to fear, for ourselves or anyone else, if we believe Christ message that God's free gift is eternal life. We all will accomplish what the great teacher has set out to teach us, and that is the value of our eternal life, and we learn that value by experiencing death, otherwise how would we understand the value of eternal life without the contrast of death? Just as a healthy person may soon grow unthankful of being healthy if he had never experienced being sick. It's a contrast lesson. And we all learn it, though some get to graduate early, but all do graduate and the teacher does not fail to accomplish what he set out to do. We will all value our eternal life when we exit this body of death.

 

[sheshisown]

It's because there are so many views on this subject and so many interpretations. A teacher, despite his personal end times beliefs, should be able to teach all feasible End Times positions. He should know all the positions anyway, to better help him decide if his position is "correct". Honestly, if a teacher is pushing his personal beliefs, he isn't really teaching, is he?

Our Sunday school instructors had no problems presenting several positions withing interjecting their own beliefs.

Understand, I'm talking in the context of church Bible study. What one chooses to teach outside of a church environment is up to him. There was a popular End Times teacher by the name of John Walvoord, who once said, there is no End Times position that is 100% correct. He said this despite his pretribulational beliefs.

These are my opinions. 8-)

Yes, I have heard many pastors quote John Walvoord and his books. He wrote on many subjects such as; the millenial kingdom, and gave fourteen keys to understanding prophetic scripture. He taught about- four views on hell and five views on sanctification, as well as the rapture question in 79. I thought he was a posttribulationalist because of his book called; The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation: A Historical and Biblical Study of Posttribulationism, he wrote it in 76 so maybe his view changed?

The pastors I have studied under have held your view as well, always teacing every reliable interpretation of end times positions, thou until now I did not know why. But that's probably because I have mostly taught children who require a straight-forward approach to spiritual insight.

The few times I have taught women studies I have never touched on escatology so I have not needed to consider the implications of teaching separate views. Thank you for the clarification, I will be careful when teaching subjects that have no bearing on foundational doctrine in the future to remain unbiased.

May I ask how you divide the word regarding the "rapture verses" in 1 Thes. chapter 4? Our pastors stress pretrib faith for the sake of keeping the saints ready for His return at a moments notice, thou they also stress that neither view is paramount to salvation.

I once heard a pastor say its as if we wait between the breaths of God, His exhale is complete, we now live in the pause before His next breath~ and the power of his last words being fulfilled in it.

bonnie

 

[Vic C.]

(I apologize for the length of the post)

Hi Bonnie,

John was the Professor of Systematic Theology at Dallas Theological Seminary for over fifty years. That school is heavy into pretribulational theology. This is from http://www.raptureready.com/who/John_Walvoord.html

Another well-known book in Walvoord’s repertoire is “The Rapture Question.†This book is also a re-edition. It thoroughly examines the four main views of the church's role in the tribulation: partial rapturism, pre-tribulationism, mid-tribulationism, and post-tribulationism. He places most of his emphasis on the debate between pre-tribulationism and post-tribulationism with himself obviously in agreement with pre-tribulationists. He finishes the book with 50 poignant arguments supporting the pre-tribulational viewpoint.

Bonnie, I am a believer in a PreWrath harpazo, though differ from prewrath because I believe the 70th. week has nothing to do with a future seven year period of Tribulation and Wrath. It would take a great portion of this thread to explain, so I refer you to this link, written by Gerhard F. Hasel, whom I have great respect.

http://www.historicist.com/articles/cro ... terpre.htm

If you don't care to read the whole piece, jump down to part III.

About 1 Thes. chapter 4. That passage, verses 16 and 17, which tig (above) commented on, work together with a few other passages, They are:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Revelation 3:10.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The word "keep", Tereo in Greek, carries this definition:

to attend to carefully, take care of
1. to guard
2. metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is
3. to observe
4. to reserve: to undergo something

So, it suggests more a sense of protection than it does removal. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 tells us that before the coming of the Lord and the gathering of His believers, there will be a time of increasing apostasy (a falling away, apostasia in Greek). An "hour" of temptation.

For me, it's important to make this distinction. For if a saint feels confident that they will be whisked away before any persecution (Tribulation), they better be right. Otherwise they could not be prepared for this falling away. We are warned time and time again of false prophets, signs and wonders and the workings of those who lead under the Angel of Light. One may take these teachings as legit, thinking they must be true because I haven't been "raptured" yet.

A very slippery slope.

It's so important to me to stress the difference between Tribulation (persecution) and Wrath. We were promised we would nut suffer God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9) but we were never promised escape from tribulation. Which is why I keep the signature you see at the end of my posts. It's a constant reminder of that promise.

So in summery, all 1 Thes. 4:16-17 tells me is: at the return of Jesus (which ushers in the Wrath) those dead and alive in Christ will be gathered and "changed" (a physical transformation into glorified bodies?) and will be either removed from the earth before the Wrath or protected from the Wrath.

Again, sorry for the length.

 

[freeway]

Guys I am in no way trying to derail this post,, can I ask a question? do you believe that believing in the rapture is a salvation issue, or is it just something that christians differ on... I myself believe in the rapture... I have studied it over and over...and I want this to be clear" I am no expert" without getting into it deeply. You have to understand the teaching of the old testament Jewish wedding, and how the groom comes to get his bride.. our case the church. Also about what trumpets are being blow. Who is the restrainer, surely not the church.. sadly it has fallen asleep in these last days.. if you believe we are in the last days........... One last thing, we are all Christians and Jesus is our only hope of salvation, in no other is salvation found...

God bless.................freeway01

I can give links, that explains it a lot more than I can in words and time....

 

[Ginger]

My father is a retired baptist minster in the UK and he would talk about the 2nd coming all the time but just concentrated on different things and would not go into the different viewpoints, He did go into the different viewpoints once on a month Tuesday night course but told all the evangelical viewpoints and in 20 secs said his own but left it up to everyone to make their own minds up. BTW he was a mix and didn't go completely with any of them.

I believe when the scriptures talk about one will be taken and one will be left, its clear that the Christians that are alive will be taken into the air to meet him with the dead in Christ just going before us with the unsaved left for the final judgment. The scriptures talk about we will be changed in a twinkling of an eye so everything will be done very quickly. I just don't see it anywhere of the 'secret' rapture.
I don't mind any Christian having a different viewpoint on this what I mind here is that people don't think there is any other viewpoint other than the dispensational one and you are not seeing the bible correctly and there is something wrong with you if you don't believe it : And there doesn't seem to be any measure of "this is just one evangelical viewpoint". If the congregation isn't being taught anything else they grow up believing it and teaching it and then the cycle begins all over again.

To the poster who asked if you are saved if you believe in another eschatology viewpoint yes, as long as you believe in the basic gospel and Jesus is coming back and have asked Jesus into your heart then yes you are saved.

Which is why I wish there would be more openness and acceptance of different viewpoints in this so we could concentrate on the important aspects of teaching the gospel and discipleship and showing it in our lives to the people around us, without having a dogmatic view which alienates some. And then can be united in Christ.

I realise in the Christian arena there will always be a difference opinion in baptising or christening etc but we can find a church that suits us, its just in this area there seems to be no where I can fit in (in the US).

 

[Bick]

Any posters here (don't believe in the left behind novels to simplify things LOL)? I have found since moving to the US that most evangelical churches heavily are. Speaking to Christians here they have never even been told there are other evangelical (not wacky) beliefs re eschatology. :o

I believe in the 2nd coming of Christ one and one time only (no secret rapture etc). I learned a long time never to get 'into it' with a Dispensationalist as personally IMO thats all they seem to be able to talk about or want to argue a point. Reason why I am saying that is I am not looking for a long involved debate 8-)
And I am more interested in building up the Church and finding common ground. (I realise this post may seem I am arguing - I don't want it to come across that way : )

I just wondered by a show of posts are there many out there like me, then maybe I won't feel so alone in Church when they are discussing matters :

MY COMMENTS: When you say, "the second coming of Christ", do you mean to the earth? Certainly Jesus prophesied in a number of places that he would come with all his holy angels to sit
on his glorious throne. And if that is what you mean, then I would certainly agree with that interpretation of the Scriptures.

But, if you lump the 'church/body of Christ's' future with the that of the believing remnant of Israel and Judah in the Messianic kingdom, then I would disagree.

The future blessings of the body of Christ is in the heavenlies---not on the earth. Read Ephesians chapts. 1 through 3, for in them Paul tells us of secrets, kept hidden through the ages in God.

Here are a few: While the Greek aorist tense is translated in the past tense, it is the Hebrew mind that puts future events in the past tense:

1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ;" AV.
WHILE WE HAVE MANY BLESSINGS DURING THIS LIFE, WE WILL ENJOY ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS IN THE HEAVENLIES.

1:5 "In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will." NIV. As 'sons' we are heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ---sharing in all the blessings and praise that Christ will have.

God knows the future from the past or present. 2:6 tells us "God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

All for now, Bick

 

[therealsuperman64]

The Left Behind series and anything about a secret rapture is ridiculous. But Jesus is coming twice, not just once. The first time is to take the faithful to heaven and the second time is after the millenium in which we'll come down with him in the holy city of New Jerusalem to live eternally on the new earth.

 

[mondar]

I just want to make a few comments on honesty and intregity.

"THEY DONT BELIEVE THE BIBLE"
I admit that I read others interpretations of scriptures and question their ability to read a passage in context and do detailed exegetical work. On the other hand, I dont accuse them of "not believing the bible." Someone mentioned that they are not a pretribber, and do not like the rejection that they feel from pretribbers. I think in eschatology tolerance should be broad from both directions. Eschatology is a demanding task. The number of passages that require mastery is large to deduce proper eschatological doctrine. Lets not make any rash claims about the other side.

"COMING ONCE"
For some reason pretribbers are pictured as seeing multiple comings of Jesus Christ. One might reject the "pretrib rapture" on their interpretation of scripture. However, it seems to me to be a misrepresentation of the "pretrib" position to call the "rapture" view a 2nd coming. I have written much on soteriology in the apologetics forum. I might be a little less interested in eschatology, but I still hope to see some honesty and intregity in representing opinions that you reject.

Well, gotta go.
Mondar

 

[Vic C.]

You lost me Mondar... who's not being honest? Maybe we can correct them, if we knew who had erred. ... and if it was me, let me know, so I may correct myself. Thanks.

 

[Ginger]

I just want to make a few comments on honesty and intregity.

"THEY DONT BELIEVE THE BIBLE"
I admit that I read others interpretations of scriptures and question their ability to read a passage in context and do detailed exegetical work. On the other hand, I dont accuse them of "not believing the bible." Someone mentioned that they are not a pretribber, and do not like the rejection that they feel from pretribbers. I think in eschatology tolerance should be broad from both directions. Eschatology is a demanding task. The number of passages that require mastery is large to deduce proper eschatological doctrine. Lets not make any rash claims about the other side.

"COMING ONCE"
For some reason pretribbers are pictured as seeing multiple comings of Jesus Christ. One might reject the "pretrib rapture" on their interpretation of scripture. However, it seems to me to be a misrepresentation of the "pretrib" position to call the "rapture" view a 2nd coming. I have written much on soteriology in the apologetics forum. I might be a little less interested in eschatology, but I still hope to see some honesty and intregity in representing opinions that you reject.

Well, gotta go.
Mondar

:o woa

Don't know where you got that from. That was my whole point and others here, that we believe all evangelical points of eschatology should be told rather than just one.

I am not like that with people who do believe other things re eschatology, I respect them I am not dogmatic on it either, I could be wrong I will soon know, but the point I originally was trying to make as we don't 100% know shouldn't we concentrate on the things that unify and not tear us down and not be dogmatic whatever your 'side' or viewpoint is.

I understand the need to explain why people believe something and that is fine if it is done respectfully. I used to question why someone thinks that Jesus is coming back twice rather than one final second coming but found it just got into a long debate and what good was that for anyone we should concentrate as Christians in telling non believers that Jesus is coming back and leave it at that so not to confuse them and it unifies us.

Along with a lot of other things I have to learn that and try and do it as my old sinful nature is quite argumentative and being gracious isn't one of my strong points. I so would love to be so gracious and slow to anger like so many men and women of God are but God is working on it, its just me who is stubborn - he has a lot of working in me still to do. :
Also being envious of another Christians' characteristic is wrong as well :