Bible Study Anyone understand what Jesus meant in Matt 16:23?

[KevinK]

Here's what I remember about that passage when I was in Jesuit university...this incident was mostly political than anything else (in the sense of secular), believe it or not. Here's what I mean: The disciples of Jesus were still thinking of the Lord as their promised political ruler of the Jewish state. The Man to unify the tribes of Israeli and defeat their enemies and persecutors. Someone to serve as the the secular King of the Jews and secure the physical state they considered the Promised Land. Jesus kept insisting ever more strongly that He was to be their spiritual king and the Promised Land was not on the earth but in Heaven.

Satan in his treacherous ways kept whispering in the disciples' ears that it was a secular kingdom that they wanted. He thus tried to promote man's political agenda, rather than advance God's spiritual plan. When Jesus saw the Enemy even inculcating the spirits of His followers, for example Peter, He realized He had to violently cast out the Evil but clever One. "Get behind me, Satan!" In other words, God's interests come first, then man's, so get in line.

Incidentally, this was the true motivation for one Judas Iscariot. It was not the lure of a modest bribe, of which he eventually threw back at the elders. Judas of all the disciples became the most frustrated that Jesus did not seem to be fulfilling Scripture the way he wanted, by setting up a new nation-state for Israel, presumably with the disciples as members of the new royal court. By betraying Jesus to the high priests he was in effect trying to force Jesus' hand, i.e. either get the new political structure rolling or die. In horror, Judas later realized that Jesus had no intention of saving Himself, that His death was fulfillment of scripture, and that he had just betrayed the Son of God.

 

[Chopper]

Here's what I remember about that passage when I was in Jesuit university...this incident was mostly political than anything else (in the sense of secular), believe it or not. Here's what I mean: The disciples of Jesus were still thinking of the Lord as their promised political ruler of the Jewish state. The Man to unify the tribes of Israeli and defeat their enemies and persecutors. Someone to serve as the the secular King of the Jews and secure the physical state they considered the Promised Land. Jesus kept insisting ever more strongly that He was to be their spiritual king and the Promised Land was not on the earth but in Heaven.

Satan in his treacherous ways kept whispering in the disciples' ears that it was a secular kingdom that they wanted. He thus tried to promote man's political agenda, rather than advance God's spiritual plan. When Jesus saw the Enemy even inculcating the spirits of His followers, for example Peter, He realized He had to violently cast out the Evil but clever One. "Get behind me, Satan!" In other words, God's interests come first, then man's, so get in line.

Incidentally, this was the true motivation for one Judas Iscariot. It was not the lure of a modest bribe, of which he eventually threw back at the elders. Judas of all the disciples became the most frustrated that Jesus did not seem to be fulfilling Scripture the way he wanted, by setting up a new nation-state for Israel, presumably with the disciples as members of the new royal court. By betraying Jesus to the high priests he was in effect trying to force Jesus' hand, i.e. either get the new political structure rolling or die. In horror, Judas later realized that Jesus had no intention of saving Himself, that His death was fulfillment of scripture, and that he had just betrayed the Son of God.

I agree with your findings. Peter, and the other disciples for that matter, were blind to heavenly, or, spiritual matters. One in a while, they understood something spiritual and Jesus responded with delight, that the Father revealed it to them. Peter, and the other disciples were so bound up in worldly affairs that they just could not grasp what Jesus was telling them, it was too new to their thinking. Peter's remark there in Matthew was simply that. He could not get his head around the fact that Jesus had to die in order for what He spoke about would take place.

 

[for_his_glory]

Chopper, that's about the sum of it that people can not wrap their heads around something that is Spiritual until they are filled with the Holy Spirit as the Disciples were. I find it so interesting that God had revealed to Peter (possibly none of the others at that time before Pentecost) when he answered Jesus "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God", Matthew 16:15-19. None can understand who Christ is nor can they have the mind of Christ unless it is revealed to them by Gods Holy Spirit.

 

[Chopper]

Chopper, that's about the sum of it that people can not wrap their heads around something that is Spiritual until they are filled with the Holy Spirit as the Disciples were. I find it so interesting that God had revealed to Peter (possibly none of the others at that time before Pentecost) when he answered Jesus "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God", Matthew 16:15-19. None can understand who Christ is nor can they have the mind of Christ unless it is revealed to them by Gods Holy Spirit.

Yep! It has always been interesting to me that in John 20:22 Jesus appeared to the disciples and said "receive the Holy Spirit." So for all the time that they were with Jesus, the Holy Spirit had not indwelt them. My theology on the indwelling and the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a little different than most. So you're right when you say that they did not have the Holy Spirit's filling.

 

[Brother Mike]

I agree with chopper and I love....... Peter messed up. Jesus warned them that they would leave him. Peter said your wrong Lord, I will never leave. The correct response would have been., with your help and grace we can stand Lord. Paul had the same type of issue when that messenger kicked the slats out from under him.

No matter how much knowledge or strong you think you are. Without grace and help we can do nothing

 

[phil marriner]

The Lord was rebuking him for showing that he was more concerned about what the world was doing rather than what Messiah had just told them

 

[Chopper]

I agree with chopper and I love....... Peter messed up. Jesus warned them that they would leave him. Peter said your wrong Lord, I will never leave. The correct response would have been., with your help and grace we can stand Lord. Paul had the same type of issue when that messenger kicked the slats out from under him.

No matter how much knowledge or strong you think you are. Without grace and help we can do nothing

Thank you my wonderful, full of the Holy Spirit, Buddy! You just made my day Mike, I have missed your posts sooooo much. So I start this day with,

 

[iLOVE]

The story picks up in Luke 22:31-34 NIV.
31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

33 But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.”

34 Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”

Jesus is telling us because of Peter's pride God will allow Satan's request. This clearly shows two things; Satan can only test Peter's faith and not all of him as he has requested in v.31. Second, Jesus loves us so much He will go after the lost sheep whose faith has failed them and those whose faith that has been broken.

"And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

Whenever you bring in the worlds thinking (human wisdom) as Peter did, and believe you can accomplish your goal that is not in Gods will, or do anything without Jesus...watch out! Jesus has warn us that you can do nothing without Him (John 15:5 NKJV) . In other words, disconnected from the cross where the power of God is located (1 Corinthians 1:18) could bring chaos from the enemy. And while you are going through this chaos (trial) in your life - see to it that you do not refuse him who speaks Hebrews 12:25 NIV. The worst the chaos is in your life the louder God is screaming at you. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.” Luke 22:32 NIV

Note: Satan did not get into Peter's spirit (God dwells in the spirit -1 Corinthians 3:16 NASB), but his flesh.

Consider this text that is being discussed for use in our own personal lives.

 

[Tony Hyman]

This is just off the top of my head, and I agree totally with what has been said here.But I can't help being reminded of the tendancy for humans(my self included) to be unable to accept praise humbly and then blow it all by becoming "smarter" than their teachers.As has already been shown here, if we look a little back to 17. Peter is literally zoomed to Big Mega Star status of being the "Rock".In verse 23. no different to anyone else .who possibly wins millions on the Lotto and suddenly becomes over confident and "smart" .
Here we see Peter promoting himself to being the Lord's Adviser ,all of a sudden(note in the same chapter).Christ knows who the real culprit is behind all this, and gose straight for the throat namely :Satan, giving us a double lesson that all blessings from God are "gifts" and we should not lose our cool, by alowing Satin to manipulate us in order to try and manipulate God or others with the usual superficial ego boosting tricks that "advisers normally use to control their bosses or others them around , here on earth.Believers could so easilly also fall into the same trap as Peter did.
So I believe this to be purley a lesson(albeit harsh and caution from Christ for the benefit of Peter ,including us all through ,the guidance of the Spirit.
Christ teachers us here when dealing with Satan ,you have to throw hardball only.Even "Ballistic" if need be!

 

[Deborah13]

Here's what I remember about that passage when I was in Jesuit university...this incident was mostly political than anything else (in the sense of secular), believe it or not. Here's what I mean: The disciples of Jesus were still thinking of the Lord as their promised political ruler of the Jewish state. The Man to unify the tribes of Israeli and defeat their enemies and persecutors. Someone to serve as the the secular King of the Jews and secure the physical state they considered the Promised Land. Jesus kept insisting ever more strongly that He was to be their spiritual king and the Promised Land was not on the earth but in Heaven.

Satan in his treacherous ways kept whispering in the disciples' ears that it was a secular kingdom that they wanted. He thus tried to promote man's political agenda, rather than advance God's spiritual plan. When Jesus saw the Enemy even inculcating the spirits of His followers, for example Peter, He realized He had to violently cast out the Evil but clever One. "Get behind me, Satan!" In other words, God's interests come first, then man's, so get in line.

Incidentally, this was the true motivation for one Judas Iscariot. It was not the lure of a modest bribe, of which he eventually threw back at the elders. Judas of all the disciples became the most frustrated that Jesus did not seem to be fulfilling Scripture the way he wanted, by setting up a new nation-state for Israel, presumably with the disciples as members of the new royal court. By betraying Jesus to the high priests he was in effect trying to force Jesus' hand, i.e. either get the new political structure rolling or die. In horror, Judas later realized that Jesus had no intention of saving Himself, that His death was fulfillment of scripture, and that he had just betrayed the Son of God.

Kevin, thanks. I could see that with the apostles but I had never put it together with Judas.That makes more sense of his behaviors than anything else I have heard.

 

[KevinK]

Kevin, thanks. I could see that with the apostles but I had never put it together with Judas.That makes more sense of his behaviors than anything else I have heard.

Thank you! For some reason I was very intrigued by this interpretation and remembered from so long ago. Most people think Judas just fell to a monetary bribe, but there was a little more to it than just that.

The interaction with Peter is itself intriguing, pretty much as Tony Hyman explained above. Peter's reactionary outburst to his own Lord was not love or compassion for one who was about to die, but pure self-interest in that Peter was about to lose his King and the Man who was supposed to lead them all to a new earthly Kingdom. Peter was a very impulsive man, and initially hardly beyond selfishness or self-preservation (as witness his three-strikes denying the Lord before the cock crowed). Yet the Lord saw something in him, as He made him the foundation for His new church.

 

[Brother Mike]

Thank you my wonderful, full of the Holy Spirit, Buddy! You just made my day Mike, I have missed your posts sooooo much. So I start this day with,

Blessings, Peter actually wrote about this incident.

1 Peter 5

1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof,not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; note

3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. note

4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh a

bout, seeking whom he may devour.

Younger. Submit. To the elder clothed in humility as the devil seeks who he may devour or sift like wheat. Pride says I can stand on my own




devour:

 

[Chopper]

Blessings, Peter actually wrote about this incident.

1 Peter 5

1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof,not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; note

3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. note

4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh a

bout, seeking whom he may devour.

Younger. Submit. To the elder clothed in humility as the devil seeks who he may devour or sift like wheat. Pride says I can stand on my own




devour:

I did, thank you Brother.

 

[follower]

This is just off the top of my head, and I agree totally with what has been said here.But I can't help being reminded of the tendancy for humans(my self included) to be unable to accept praise humbly and then blow it all by becoming "smarter" than their teachers.As has already been shown here, if we look a little back to 17. Peter is literally zoomed to Big Mega Star status of being the "Rock".In verse 23. no different to anyone else .who possibly wins millions on the Lotto and suddenly becomes over confident and "smart" .
Here we see Peter promoting himself to being the Lord's Adviser ,all of a sudden(note in the same chapter).Christ knows who the real culprit is behind all this, and gose straight for the throat namely :Satan, giving us a double lesson that all blessings from God are "gifts" and we should not lose our cool, by alowing Satin to manipulate us in order to try and manipulate God or others with the usual superficial ego boosting tricks that "advisers normally use to control their bosses or others them around , here on earth.Believers could so easilly also fall into the same trap as Peter did.
So I believe this to be purley a lesson(albeit harsh and caution from Christ for the benefit of Peter ,including us all through ,the guidance of the Spirit.
Christ teachers us here when dealing with Satan ,you have to throw hardball only.Even "Ballistic" if need be!

Yeshua didn't make nor call Peter the "Rock" - Yeshua called Peter a "pebble"(as clearly and plainly revealed in original language studies found (fairly) easily upon seeking the Truth). . the "Rock" is Yeshua and/or Faith in Yeshua. the counterfeiting churches of the world tried to make much ado about as if Peter was the "Rock", and they did trick multitudes into accepting that, but that didn't ever make it true.

 

[Brother Mike]

Yeshua didn't make nor call Peter the "Rock" - Yeshua called Peter a "pebble"(as clearly and plainly revealed in original language studies found (fairly) easily upon seeking the Truth). . the "Rock" is Yeshua and/or Faith in Yeshua. the counterfeiting churches of the world tried to make much ado about as if Peter was the "Rock", and they did trick multitudes into accepting that, but that didn't ever make it true.

Ya, petros small rock, Petra big rock. How this was missed and Peter ended up being the rock of the church is a mystery to me also. How hard is it to look up a little Greek and compare scriptures? Just lazy bible study if you ask me.

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
(1Co 10:4)

 

[follower]

Ya, petros small rock, Petra big rock. How this was missed and Peter ended up being the rock of the church is a mystery to me also. How hard is it to look up a little Greek and compare scriptures? Just lazy bible study if you ask me.

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
(1Co 10:4)

Yhvh's plan is either certainly or perhaps unknown mystery(on purpose) to most 'worldly christians'. Or are those who have been(wrongly) taught that Peter is the ROCK upon which something is built completely deceived? They have 'willingly' ? (is it willing when they are totally deceived?) given over their lives(some have) to that which is not of Christ, yet still even some have as if by fire been saved out of and from all the deception and truly turned to Yeshua the Messiah, Jesus the Christ, for His help and received freely Yhvh's Grace in their dire time of need.