[_ Old Earth _] Ape gives birth to new creature and lives!

[Quath]

If you have been taught to do your own thinking, it’s a matter of exposing yourself to as much information as you can find, following your heart and your God-given common sense.

I would argue that people that go to college have done this. They are given more information than a high school drop out. They are following their heart if they are going to college. And it takes a lot of brains and common sense to pass through college.

So if there is indoctrination, college is the place where the reverse happens. People are adults and not impressionable. Evidence and reason are the tools for understanding, not superstitions taught by parents and family.

For your theory to work, the smartest peopel in the world have to also be the stupidest people in the world. I find that very hard to swallow, especially when I have looked at the evidence.

Quath

 

[unred typo]

If you have been taught to do your own thinking, it’s a matter of exposing yourself to as much information as you can find, following your heart and your God-given common sense.

I would argue that people that go to college have done this. They are given more information than a high school drop out. They are following their heart if they are going to college. And it takes a lot of brains and common sense to pass through college.

So if there is indoctrination, college is the place where the reverse happens. People are adults and not impressionable. Evidence and reason are the tools for understanding, not superstitions taught by parents and family.

For your theory to work, the smartest peopel in the world have to also be the stupidest people in the world. I find that very hard to swallow, especially when I have looked at the evidence.

Quath

Stupid has nothing to do with it. Evolution indoctrination is everywhere from children’s television nature shows to high school and college courses. With this level of programming saturation, college is the place where the reverse is not even going to be presented, except as a further attempt to remove all doubt that evolution has any serious alternatives. You are either very naive or disingenuous if you don’t know this.

 

[cubedbee]

[quote="unred typo":e1a2f] If you have been taught to do your own thinking, it’s a matter of exposing yourself to as much information as you can find, following your heart and your God-given common sense.

I would argue that people that go to college have done this. They are given more information than a high school drop out. They are following their heart if they are going to college. And it takes a lot of brains and common sense to pass through college.

So if there is indoctrination, college is the place where the reverse happens. People are adults and not impressionable. Evidence and reason are the tools for understanding, not superstitions taught by parents and family.

For your theory to work, the smartest peopel in the world have to also be the stupidest people in the world. I find that very hard to swallow, especially when I have looked at the evidence.

Quath

Stupid has nothing to do with it. Evolution indoctrination is everywhere from children’s television nature shows to high school and college courses. With this level of programming saturation, college is the place where the reverse is not even going to be presented, except as a further attempt to remove all doubt that evolution has any serious alternatives. You are either very naive or disingenuous if you don’t know this.[/quote:e1a2f]

I honestly cannot fathom the manner in which you view this world. It seems so far removed from the reality I know that it seems like we're on different planets.

From birth, I was raised in a consertive fundamentalist Christian household, and for as long as I can remember I was taught and believed the world was 6000 years old. From age 5-10 I was a voracious reader of non-fiction---reading literally hundreds of books about the natural world. I can tell you for a fact that nature media geared toward children doesn't "indoctrinate" evolution. Quite the contrary, it mentions evolution in passing, concentrating about the awesome qualities of the creature in question, not trying to teach the TOE. Even dinosaure books concetrate 95% on the featues of the dinosaurs, very little on their age or origin. I certainly came across hundreds of references to an old earth/evolution, but they were all in passing, and they were all easily dismissed by me.

In high school, I took AP biology in 10th grade, and once again, evolution was certainly taught, but it was a relativel small part of the course--only appeared on one exam, and that wasn't the only topic. Even then, knowing much more than when I was a child, I still dismissed the scientists old ages of the Earth as an error, something that couldn't possibly be right because I knew the earth was young. Evolution wasn't pushed, and it certainly didn't interfer with my religious beliefs.

It wasn't until college that I started questioning what I had always learned. My college required 2 semesters of biology, one of which taught about evolution, but that's not what swayed me. It was my "God and Science" class, a class in which we discussed the roles of religion and science in society, both historically and today, and where we had class discussion involving many controversials issues of overlap. It was there I first met other Christians, who unlike me, were able to reconcile the Bible with all of science, not having to simply dismiss the parts they disagreed with. I realized how incredibly intellectually dishonest my dismissal of evolutionary science was---that evolutionary science was rooted in the exact same scientific methods as the rest of science and that's its conclusions had the exact same validity. And I realized I didn't have to abandon my faith in Christ, something which I could never to, to accept evolutionary science. This is when I started to think evolution might be true. I was still on the fence, thinking it could go either way, but throughout college and since then, as I've read evolution books, seen more evidence, I'm firmly off the fence and into the side of evolution.

I've gone to college with some of the brightest minds in America. It's absolutely ridiculous to claim that these smart people could all be duped through "indoctrination" into believing a false theory of evolution. It's impossible for me to accept that the Christian biologists I knew, who attended church with me and did experimental work in biology, were duped into accepting evolution---were somehow deceived about evidence which they themselves were qualified to verify for themselves. I cannot believe that literally millions of scientists are all taken in by a false theory that contradicts evidence.

 

[Heidi]

[quote="unred typo":de1a3] If you have been taught to do your own thinking, it’s a matter of exposing yourself to as much information as you can find, following your heart and your God-given common sense.

I would argue that people that go to college have done this. They are given more information than a high school drop out. They are following their heart if they are going to college. And it takes a lot of brains and common sense to pass through college.

So if there is indoctrination, college is the place where the reverse happens. People are adults and not impressionable. Evidence and reason are the tools for understanding, not superstitions taught by parents and family.

For your theory to work, the smartest peopel in the world have to also be the stupidest people in the world. I find that very hard to swallow, especially when I have looked at the evidence.

Quath

Stupid has nothing to do with it. Evolution indoctrination is everywhere from children’s television nature shows to high school and college courses. With this level of programming saturation, college is the place where the reverse is not even going to be presented, except as a further attempt to remove all doubt that evolution has any serious alternatives. You are either very naive or disingenuous if you don’t know this.[/quote:de1a3]

Good post. All college is is doing what the teachers want for which they will reward us with letters after our names. ;-)

 

[unred typo]

Quarth wrote:

I've gone to college with some of the brightest minds in America. It's absolutely ridiculous to claim that these smart people could all be duped through "indoctrination" into believing a false theory of evolution. It's impossible for me to accept that the Christian biologists I knew, who attended church with me and did experimental work in biology, were duped into accepting evolution---were somehow deceived about evidence which they themselves were qualified to verify for themselves. I cannot believe that literally millions of scientists are all taken in by a false theory that contradicts evidence.

OK. I’m going with ‘naïve’ then.

 

[Quath]

I guess there is little more I can add. I think CubedBee summed it up well. I am a scientist and work with many scientists. These evolution debates are too close to the debates on whether the Earth moves. When I read history about that, it is very fustrating because people did not want to accept the Earth moved. The Bible clearly says it is immovable and people did not want to believe the Bible was wrong.

People would say stuff like "How do you know what you see through the telescope is really what is there?" They would say that if the Earth moved, we would feel it.

Now it is just repeating itself over again with a different throey and a different part of the Bible.

If you could hang around scientists, I think you would see they were not naive, but objective. What they are taught in school is that you go after the "truth" without bias. A lot of science work is removing biases and performing controlled or blind experiments. The evidence speaks for itself.

Quath

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

Actually historically speaking Quath I disagree with you, science was for centuries moved ahead by people who were mainly amateur theologians, though most of the people on this board would have considered them unChristian, plenty of their peers did too. But not because they had interesting new ideas about physics or math. A lot of the time people like Descartes, Newton, Galileo, etc were really just anti-establishment when it came to Aristotelian vs Platonic philosophy and because of this were considered unorthodox. Not simply because they had new ideas about the earth moving, but because they were mixing categories of study, like math and physics and coming up with mechanics.

Descartes, like Darwin, didn't publish some of his work because it was radical and would have been ill received.

 

[Heidi]

The more you are pounded with the same lie, the more likely you are to believe it, especially if you are indoctrinated early by people whom you admire and trust and from several ‘trusted sources.’ This is true in religion, history, science and just about any field of learning. People are easily lead, regardless of their educational backgrounds. Sometimes the most gullible are the ones who feel they can’t be fooled because they are so well educated. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools…

Do you believe that could also be true of Creationism? That people pounded with the same lie come to believe it and are indoctrinated while young? Or is this criticism just reserved for things you don't like to believe in?

Quath

Sorry, but creationism doesn't contradict the way humans and animals breed but evolution does. The proof is in reality, not the imagination, my friend. ;-)

 

[Barbarian]

Isn't this sort of thing banned under the new rules?