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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
Apocrypha!
- Thread starter JohnDB
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JohnDB
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Hate to tell you this...
But I know for a fact that Enoch is pseudopigrapha...not Apocrypha.
Dunno about Jasher. (Part of the war scroll?)
Apocrypha is "taken out" of scripture... meaning someone wanted it in and it didn't pass any test for scripture.
Pseudopigrapha is false author. Enoch failed the test of scripture in it's opening remarks... clearly a piece of historical fiction even at the time of writing (100 BC)
However it's interesting to read.
I'm talking about Maccabees and Psalms of Solomon. And I can't remember the others off the top of my head.
JohnDB
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Here is the 2nd Psalm of Solomon:
II. A Psalm Of Solomon. Concerning Jerusalem.
2 1 When the sinner waxed proud, with a battering-ram he cast down fortified walls, And Thou didst not restrain (him). 2 Alien nations ascended Thine altar, They trampled (it) proudly with their sandals; 3 Because the sons of Jerusalem had defiled the holy things of the Lord, Had profaned with iniquities the offerings of God. 4 Therefore He said: Cast them far from Me; 5 It was set at naught before God, It was utterly dishonoured; 6 The sons and the daughters were in grievous captivity, Sealed (?) (was) their neck, branded (?) (was it) among the nations. 7 According to their sins hath He done unto them, For He hath left them in the hands of them that prevailed. 8 He hath turned away His face from pitying them, Young and old and their children together; 9 For they had done evil one and all, in not hearkening. 10 (9) And the heavens were angry, And the earth abhorred them; 11 For no man upon it had done what they did, 12 (10) And the earth recognized all Thy righteous judgements, O God. 13 (11) They set the sons of Jerusalem to be mocked at in return for (the) harlots in her; Every wayfarer entered in in the full light of day. 14 (12) They made mock with their transgressions, as they themselves were wont to do; In the full light of day they revealed their iniquities. (13) And the daughters of Jerusalem were defiled in accordance with Thy judgement, 15 Because they had defiled themselves with unnatural intercourse. (14) I am pained in my bowels and my inward parts for these things. (15) (And yet) I will justify Thee, O God, in uprightness of heart, For in Thy judgements is Thy righteousness (displayed), O God. 17 (16) For Thou hast rendered to the sinners according to their deeds, Yea according to their sins, which were very wicked. 18 (17) Thou hast uncovered their sins, that Thy judgement might be manifest; 19 Thou hast wiped out their memorial from the earth. (18) God is a righteous judge, And He is no respecter of persons. 20 (19) For the nations reproached Jerusalem, trampling it down; Her beauty was dragged down from the throne of glory. 21 (20) She girded on sackcloth instead of comely raiment, A rope (was) about her head instead of a crown. 22 (21) She put off the glorious diadem which God had set upon her, 23 In dishonour was her beauty cast upon the ground. 24 (22) And I saw and entreated the Lord and said, Long enough, O Lord, has Thine hand been heavy on Israel, in bringing the nations upon (them). 25 (23) For they have made sport unsparingly in wrath and fierce anger; 26 And they will make an utter end, unless Thou, O Lord, rebuke them in Thy wrath. 27 (24) For they have done it not in zeal, but in lust of soul, 28 Pouring out their wrath upon us with a view to rapine. 29 (25) Delay not, O God, to recompense them on (their) heads, To turn the pride of the dragon into dishonour. 30(26) And I had not long to wait before God showed me the insolent one Slain on the mountains of Egypt, Esteemed of less account than the least on land and sea; 31 (27) His body, ( too,) borne hither and thither on the billows with much insolence, With none to bury (him), because He had rejected him with dishonour. (28) He reflected not that he was man. 32 And reflected not on the latter end; 33 (29) He said: I will be lord of land and sea; And he recognized not that it is God who is great, Mighty in His great strength. 34 (30) He is king over the heavens, And judgeth kings and kingdoms. 35 (31) (It is He) who setteth me up in glory, And bringeth down the proud to eternal destruction in dishonour, Because they knew Him not. 36 (32) And now behold, ye princes of the earth, the judgement of the Lord, For a great king and righteous (is He), judging (all) that is under heaven. 37 (33) Bless God, ye that fear the Lord with wisdom, For the mercy of the Lord will be upon them that fear Him, in the Judgement; 38 (34) So that He will distinguish between the righteous and the sinner, (And) recompense the sinners for ever according to their deeds; 39 (35) And have mercy on the righteous, (delivering him) from the affliction of the sinner, And recompensing the sinner for what he hath done to the righteous. 40 (36) For the Lord is good to them that call upon Him in patience, Doing according to His mercy to His pious ones, Establishing (them) at all times before Him in strength. 41 (37) Blessed be the Lord for ever before His servants.
II. A Psalm Of Solomon. Concerning Jerusalem.
2 1 When the sinner waxed proud, with a battering-ram he cast down fortified walls, And Thou didst not restrain (him). 2 Alien nations ascended Thine altar, They trampled (it) proudly with their sandals; 3 Because the sons of Jerusalem had defiled the holy things of the Lord, Had profaned with iniquities the offerings of God. 4 Therefore He said: Cast them far from Me; 5 It was set at naught before God, It was utterly dishonoured; 6 The sons and the daughters were in grievous captivity, Sealed (?) (was) their neck, branded (?) (was it) among the nations. 7 According to their sins hath He done unto them, For He hath left them in the hands of them that prevailed. 8 He hath turned away His face from pitying them, Young and old and their children together; 9 For they had done evil one and all, in not hearkening. 10 (9) And the heavens were angry, And the earth abhorred them; 11 For no man upon it had done what they did, 12 (10) And the earth recognized all Thy righteous judgements, O God. 13 (11) They set the sons of Jerusalem to be mocked at in return for (the) harlots in her; Every wayfarer entered in in the full light of day. 14 (12) They made mock with their transgressions, as they themselves were wont to do; In the full light of day they revealed their iniquities. (13) And the daughters of Jerusalem were defiled in accordance with Thy judgement, 15 Because they had defiled themselves with unnatural intercourse. (14) I am pained in my bowels and my inward parts for these things. (15) (And yet) I will justify Thee, O God, in uprightness of heart, For in Thy judgements is Thy righteousness (displayed), O God. 17 (16) For Thou hast rendered to the sinners according to their deeds, Yea according to their sins, which were very wicked. 18 (17) Thou hast uncovered their sins, that Thy judgement might be manifest; 19 Thou hast wiped out their memorial from the earth. (18) God is a righteous judge, And He is no respecter of persons. 20 (19) For the nations reproached Jerusalem, trampling it down; Her beauty was dragged down from the throne of glory. 21 (20) She girded on sackcloth instead of comely raiment, A rope (was) about her head instead of a crown. 22 (21) She put off the glorious diadem which God had set upon her, 23 In dishonour was her beauty cast upon the ground. 24 (22) And I saw and entreated the Lord and said, Long enough, O Lord, has Thine hand been heavy on Israel, in bringing the nations upon (them). 25 (23) For they have made sport unsparingly in wrath and fierce anger; 26 And they will make an utter end, unless Thou, O Lord, rebuke them in Thy wrath. 27 (24) For they have done it not in zeal, but in lust of soul, 28 Pouring out their wrath upon us with a view to rapine. 29 (25) Delay not, O God, to recompense them on (their) heads, To turn the pride of the dragon into dishonour. 30(26) And I had not long to wait before God showed me the insolent one Slain on the mountains of Egypt, Esteemed of less account than the least on land and sea; 31 (27) His body, ( too,) borne hither and thither on the billows with much insolence, With none to bury (him), because He had rejected him with dishonour. (28) He reflected not that he was man. 32 And reflected not on the latter end; 33 (29) He said: I will be lord of land and sea; And he recognized not that it is God who is great, Mighty in His great strength. 34 (30) He is king over the heavens, And judgeth kings and kingdoms. 35 (31) (It is He) who setteth me up in glory, And bringeth down the proud to eternal destruction in dishonour, Because they knew Him not. 36 (32) And now behold, ye princes of the earth, the judgement of the Lord, For a great king and righteous (is He), judging (all) that is under heaven. 37 (33) Bless God, ye that fear the Lord with wisdom, For the mercy of the Lord will be upon them that fear Him, in the Judgement; 38 (34) So that He will distinguish between the righteous and the sinner, (And) recompense the sinners for ever according to their deeds; 39 (35) And have mercy on the righteous, (delivering him) from the affliction of the sinner, And recompensing the sinner for what he hath done to the righteous. 40 (36) For the Lord is good to them that call upon Him in patience, Doing according to His mercy to His pious ones, Establishing (them) at all times before Him in strength. 41 (37) Blessed be the Lord for ever before His servants.
dianegcook
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I thought Enoch was interesting! Lol
Speaking of fallen angels...
Jude 14, Enoch, prophesied of these...wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness 4ever.
But to each his own..
JohnDB
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The book of Enoch is quoted a couple of times by Jesus... Jesus also quoted a few other sages from the far East and elsewhere. Not that he gave them credit or said that they were all enlightened. Just that the quotes we're handy enough for making a point he wished to make.
dianegcook
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Yes,
I think it was Enoch also which mention Lilith.
The other races that were created before the man Adam.
Been a long time since I have read it, they say your mind is usually the first thing to go, lol.
JohnDB
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"And I don't remember what goes next..."
I've been looking at the Apocrypha... specifically these Psalms of Solomon.
They were mentioned a lot in Early Church writings and quoted often.
The one I posted above is kinda interesting to read and ponder.
Nathan12
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Do you read any of them? No
Have you read them? Some sections
Do you know what they contain? Yes
Can any theology come from them? No
Can any knowledge be gained by reading them? Sure
As long as Christian are aware that those books are not divinely inspired, they are free to read them if they wish (provided they have already been studying the Bible).
JohnDB
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So what kind of knowledge do you think that they contain?
Obviously they were thought important enough at some point in history to include in with scriptures...for over 1900 years they were included.
Now they have been removed and almost reviled. Surely they have value if they were included with scriptures for such a long period of time.
I'm sure any scholar would want to be familiar with them and discuss them...since they were included for such a length of time.
- Nov 4, 2004
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You should list the books your referring to.
JohnDB
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1 Esdras
2 Esdras
Additions to Esther
1 Macabees
2 Macabees
Tobias
Judith
Wisdom
Sirach
Baruch
Epistle of Jeremiah
Susanna
Prayer of Azariah
Prayer of Manasseh
Bel and the Dragon
Laodiceans
Not a complete list but the 14 most known.
And these are links...not just the book names
2 Esdras
Additions to Esther
1 Macabees
2 Macabees
Tobias
Judith
Wisdom
Sirach
Baruch
Epistle of Jeremiah
Susanna
Prayer of Azariah
Prayer of Manasseh
Bel and the Dragon
Laodiceans
Not a complete list but the 14 most known.
And these are links...not just the book names
Last edited:
- Nov 4, 2004
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Cool, thanks for the links.
I'm not familiar with all of them, but a few, yes.
I think it's a call for discernment and each may hold biblical truths which can be embraced. However, our current canon is the filter we use for seeing and embracing the truths within the apocryphal and not the other way around.
JohnDB
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I'm not suggesting that these are scripture. But obviously they give perspective on the scriptures in some fashion or else they wouldn't be included.
Bel and the Dragon is a prime example. It's not scripture...nor should it be considered scripture. The tale told within isn't truth. The name of the story is unique. Who is Bel and who is the Dragon?
And it does give credence to the legend of Daniel creating the Banking system and credit lines we use today to make commercial business work more effectively.
JohnDB
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Now for reference purposes I have recently learned about the existence of Psalms of Solomon and how it was Apocrypha in the Pishetta and Septuagint manuscripts. Of course the Latin Vulgate didn't include them. (They would not approve of the contents of the Psalms)
And so I sought to find out why...
One of the reasons was that it was written about the time that the new Christian Bible was completed...so they didn't think they should be included. They didn't pass any test of New Testament scripture. (Another reason)
And I found that one of the main focuses of these Psalms is wicked spiritual leadership... something to give every leader pause.
And so I sought to find out why...
One of the reasons was that it was written about the time that the new Christian Bible was completed...so they didn't think they should be included. They didn't pass any test of New Testament scripture. (Another reason)
And I found that one of the main focuses of these Psalms is wicked spiritual leadership... something to give every leader pause.
Nathan12
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The apocryphal books are a mishmash of Bible truth, Jewish history, and pure fantasy. Books like Ecclesiaticus and Wisdom generally reflect what it in Scripture. But Bel and the Dragon sounds mythical. And using Maccabees to establish the fictitious dogma of Purgatory (which is not even there, but praying for the dead is) is how the Apocrypha has been misused.
Since most Christians are not scholars, and many are not even clear about Gospel truth and Bible truth, they have enough to occupy them with the 66 books of the Protestant Bibles.
BTW the apocryphal books vary from only 7 in Catholic Bibles (called Deutero-canonical in order to avoid the term Apocrypha which is pejorative) to 17 in Orthodox Bibles. The original KJV had 16 books but clearly labeled as "Apocrypha", inserted between the Testaments, and recognized as non-canonical. Some people object to their removal, but it was a wise decision.
