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Bible Study Archangel Michael = Jesus Christ???
- Thread starter By Grace
- Start date
Gregg
Member
The name Michael means 'one who is like God.' But Jesus is not merely 'like' God - He is God.
Please, the Scriptures do not even remotely insinuate that Michael was a name of Jesus or that they are one and the same.
WOW! I surely am glad that I did not convince you (or anyone else) that Michael is the pre-incarnate version of Jesus Christ! The reason for that being the case is because I was attempting to demonstrate that the opposite was the case. I believe that anyone (and there are several religious groups doing it) it is heretical because there can be no support from the Scriptures in their context.
In the thread, I am attempting to reach those who believe that statement that Archangel Michael is pre-incarnate Jesus Christ. I am sorry that I confused anyone.
BTW when I stated " You see, the term "archangel" is not found in the Bible. As a result, it is a derived term taken from the activities of the 3 named angels in Scripture, Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer." I was in error because I relied on a free Bible software package to search the NT in the KJV and nothing came back. I guess you get what you pay for!
Jude 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
1 Thessalonians 4: 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Color me embarrassed
rthom7
Member
So Malachi just because Michael and his angels in a reference, you assume Michael is of the angel in kind....why not of Elohim in kind, as the Father is ? After all what is the difference between Elohim kind and cherub kind ?
And if a war breaks out who is going to fight, Satan and his angels, against God and His angels, isn't that what the war was about ?
(1) Both Elohim kind and cherub kind... look like men
The three beings that appeared to Abram were like men, one being YHWH, the other two were cherubs
and (2) both Elohim kind and cherub kind.... uses wings for transport
Ps 36:7 How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings.
Eze 10:5 And the sound of the cherubims' wings was heard even to the outer court,
So it's NOT nearly a great leap of faith to assume Michael is of Elohim kind, while also the commander of the angel cherub kind. The only difference between them is their Creative power.
Shalom
A man convinced against his will
remains unconvinced, still -- somebody famous
No one can put your experience down because God speaks to us uniquely. However in saying that, I do make a note of caution here, because by claiming special revelation" as a valid method of the revelations of God, the Mormons use that as a method of proving to the prospective convert that "the book of Mormon is true".
All that aside, I created the thread to demonstrate that there is absolutely no support of that position using the Bible. Therefore some others will be able to use that as an evidence-based approach to help others get out of their cults.
jasonc
Member
I never said that I didn't check that to see. remember the jw is taught where to go to in the bible(kjv) for those verses that are about the pro Trinitarian argument. when the Lord I am the godhead, I knew the verse he meant.
ANGEL
Hebrew
4397mal’ak { mal-awk’}
from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; TWOT - 1068a; n m
AV - angel 111, messenger 98, ambassadors 4, variant 1; 214
GK - 4855 { מַלְאָךְ }
1) messenger, representative
1a) messenger
1b) angel
1c) the theophanic angel
Greek
32aggelos { ang’-el-os}
from aggello [probably derived from 71, cf 34] (to bring tidings); TDNT - 1:74,12; n m
AV - angel 179, messenger 7; 186
GK - 34 { ἄγγελος }
1) a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God
The point is, "angel" is not a species but an office or title.
Genesis 22 (KJV)
1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.
6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
19 So Abraham returned unto his young men, and they rose up and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba.
20 And it came to pass after these things, that it was told Abraham, saying, Behold, Milcah, she hath also born children unto thy brother Nahor;
21 Huz his firstborn, and Buz his brother, and Kemuel the father of Aram,
22 And Chesed, and Hazo, and Pildash, and Jidlaph, and Bethuel.
23 And Bethuel begat Rebekah: these eight Milcah did bear to Nahor, Abraham’s brother.
24 And his concubine, whose name was Reumah, she bare also Tebah, and Gaham, and Thahash, and Maachah.
Hebrew
4397mal’ak { mal-awk’}
from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; TWOT - 1068a; n m
AV - angel 111, messenger 98, ambassadors 4, variant 1; 214
GK - 4855 { מַלְאָךְ }
1) messenger, representative
1a) messenger
1b) angel
1c) the theophanic angel
Greek
32aggelos { ang’-el-os}
from aggello [probably derived from 71, cf 34] (to bring tidings); TDNT - 1:74,12; n m
AV - angel 179, messenger 7; 186
GK - 34 { ἄγγελος }
1) a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God
The point is, "angel" is not a species but an office or title.
Genesis 22 (KJV)
1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.
6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
19 So Abraham returned unto his young men, and they rose up and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba.
20 And it came to pass after these things, that it was told Abraham, saying, Behold, Milcah, she hath also born children unto thy brother Nahor;
21 Huz his firstborn, and Buz his brother, and Kemuel the father of Aram,
22 And Chesed, and Hazo, and Pildash, and Jidlaph, and Bethuel.
23 And Bethuel begat Rebekah: these eight Milcah did bear to Nahor, Abraham’s brother.
24 And his concubine, whose name was Reumah, she bare also Tebah, and Gaham, and Thahash, and Maachah.
Malachi
Member
1. To begin with, there can be absolutely no comparison between the creature and his Creator. The creature will always be the creature. The creature can "create" nothing. The Creator created all things "out of nothing".
2. If you obtain a copy of Nave's Topical Bible and study the attributes of God and of Christ, you will note that they are (1) eternal, (2) infinite, and (3) absolute. When you compare this with the angels, you will note that there is no comparison.
3. Michael the archangel is mention just five times in Scripture, and always associated with other angels. God (Elohim, YHWH, Adonai, Yehovih, Jesus), on the other hand, is mentioned thousands of times. If that does not give us a clue, nothing will. [the appearances of the Angel of the Lord (Christ) are irrelevant, since he is never called "Michael"].
This is one teaching (Michael = Jesus) that should be "scratched" (or should I say "scrapped"?) It has absolutely no foundation.
From where did you get that information above? You are offering up no explanation for your conclusion; therefore there is no discussion possible.
I suspect that you do not use Logos. I do. Here is how it looks when using Logos:
ANGELS (מַלְאָךְ, mal'akh; מַלְאַךְ, mal'akh; ἄγγελος, angelos). Heavenly messengers in the Bible. The Hebrew and Greek words usually translated as “angel” are probably better translated as “messenger.”
Biblical Relevance
The Hebrew and Greek terms usually translated as “angel” are used for both human and heavenly messengers—context determines whether the messenger was sent from God or from an earthly authority. Unlike the Greek Old Testament, the Latin Vulgate distinguishes between earthly (nuntius) and heavenly (angelus) messengers.
Biblical Relevance
The Hebrew and Greek terms usually translated as “angel” are used for both human and heavenly messengers—context determines whether the messenger was sent from God or from an earthly authority. Unlike the Greek Old Testament, the Latin Vulgate distinguishes between earthly (nuntius) and heavenly (angelus) messengers.
Marlowe, W. C. (2012, 2013, 2014). Angels. In J. D. Barry, L. Wentz, D. Mangum, C. Sinclair-Wolcott, R. Klippenstein, D. Bomar, … D. R. Brown (Eds.), The Lexham Bible Dictionary. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
. ἄγγελος in the NT.
1. The meaning of human messenger plays only a very small role in the NT. The scouts sent out by Joshua to Jericho in Jm. 2:25, the men sent by John to Jesus in Lk. 7:24 and by Jesus to the Samaritan village in Lk. 9:52, are the only cases in which men sent by other men are called ἄγγελοι in the NT.
Jesus in Mt. 11:10 par. (cf. Mk. 1:2), applying the OT promise,58 interprets John the Baptist to be the messenger of the covenant preceding the day of the Lord. Originally the expectation may have been focused on either a human messenger or a heavenly angel, but it is now linked with the concrete person of the Baptist as the messenger of God. The passage shows how the different meanings may merge into one another. The possibility has also to be considered that the application of the promise to the Baptist is conditioned by the various influences on the conception of message discussed in the earlier article on the root ἀγγελ-. This ἄγγελος is a predecessor to prepare the way, bearing the proclamation of Christ (→ 57 f.).
Jesus in Mt. 11:10 par. (cf. Mk. 1:2), applying the OT promise,58 interprets John the Baptist to be the messenger of the covenant preceding the day of the Lord. Originally the expectation may have been focused on either a human messenger or a heavenly angel, but it is now linked with the concrete person of the Baptist as the messenger of God. The passage shows how the different meanings may merge into one another. The possibility has also to be considered that the application of the promise to the Baptist is conditioned by the various influences on the conception of message discussed in the earlier article on the root ἀγγελ-. This ἄγγελος is a predecessor to prepare the way, bearing the proclamation of Christ (→ 57 f.).
Kittel, G., Bromiley, G. W., & Friedrich, G. (Eds.). (1964–). Theological dictionary of the New Testament (electronic ed., Vol. 1, p. 83). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
Notice the differences?
Can you also notice that nothing in those definitions says that the titles of an angel is what makes them angels. (If I understand you correctly)
Below is a list of 27 facts about angels, with Scripture references for each.
27 Facts about Angels
1. They are mentioned 273 times in 34 biblical books.
2. They were all created by God. Gen. 2:1; Neh. 9:6; Eph. 3:9; Col. 1:16
3. They report directly to God. Job 1:6; 2:1
4. They were present at the Creation of the world. Job 38:1, 4, 7
5. They announced Jesus’ birth to the shepherds. Luke 2:10–14
6. They do not marry. Matt. 22:30
7. They were created to live forever. Rev. 4:8
8. Their purpose is to glorify God. Rev. 4:8
9. Some angels help human beings. Heb. 1:14
10. Some angels harm human beings. Mark 5:1–5
11. They are spirit beings. Ps. 104:4; Heb. 1:7, 14
12. They are invisible beings. Rom. 1:18–32; Col. 2:18; Rev. 19:10; 22:9
13. They are innumerable. Deut. 33:2; Ps 68:17; Dan. 7:9–10; Matt. 26:53; Heb. 12:22; Rev. 5:11
14. They possess intelligence. Dan. 9:21–22; 10:14; Rev. 19:10; 22:8–9
15. They possess will. Isa. 14:12–15; Jude 6
16. They display joy. Job 38:7; Luke 2:13
17. They display desire. 1 Pet. 1:12
18. They are stronger than men. Ps. 103:20; 2 Thess. 1:7; 2 Pet. 2:11
19. They are more intelligent than men. Dan. 9:21–22; 10:14
20. They are swifter than men. Dan. 9:21; Rev 14:6
21. They are not omnipresent. Dan. 10:12
22. They are not omnipotent. Dan. 10:13; Jude 9
23. They are not omniscient. Matt. 24:36
24. Some are cherubim. Ezek. 1:1–28; 10:20
25. Some are seraphim. Isa. 6:1–8
26. The majority remained true to God. Rev. 5:11–12
27. They will join all believers in the heavenly Jerusalem. Heb. 12:22–23
Willmington, H. L. (1987). Willmington’s book of Bible lists (pp. 17–18). Wheaton, IL: Tyndale.2. They were all created by God. Gen. 2:1; Neh. 9:6; Eph. 3:9; Col. 1:16
3. They report directly to God. Job 1:6; 2:1
4. They were present at the Creation of the world. Job 38:1, 4, 7
5. They announced Jesus’ birth to the shepherds. Luke 2:10–14
6. They do not marry. Matt. 22:30
7. They were created to live forever. Rev. 4:8
8. Their purpose is to glorify God. Rev. 4:8
9. Some angels help human beings. Heb. 1:14
10. Some angels harm human beings. Mark 5:1–5
11. They are spirit beings. Ps. 104:4; Heb. 1:7, 14
12. They are invisible beings. Rom. 1:18–32; Col. 2:18; Rev. 19:10; 22:9
13. They are innumerable. Deut. 33:2; Ps 68:17; Dan. 7:9–10; Matt. 26:53; Heb. 12:22; Rev. 5:11
14. They possess intelligence. Dan. 9:21–22; 10:14; Rev. 19:10; 22:8–9
15. They possess will. Isa. 14:12–15; Jude 6
16. They display joy. Job 38:7; Luke 2:13
17. They display desire. 1 Pet. 1:12
18. They are stronger than men. Ps. 103:20; 2 Thess. 1:7; 2 Pet. 2:11
19. They are more intelligent than men. Dan. 9:21–22; 10:14
20. They are swifter than men. Dan. 9:21; Rev 14:6
21. They are not omnipresent. Dan. 10:12
22. They are not omnipotent. Dan. 10:13; Jude 9
23. They are not omniscient. Matt. 24:36
24. Some are cherubim. Ezek. 1:1–28; 10:20
25. Some are seraphim. Isa. 6:1–8
26. The majority remained true to God. Rev. 5:11–12
27. They will join all believers in the heavenly Jerusalem. Heb. 12:22–23
Please look at the points I made red above; then please tell me (and others) what you meant when you posted this statement: The point is, "angel" is not a species but an office or title.
Nah, I am attempting to instigate an argument, but before I can discuss what you wrote, I first need to understand it. Please help me out on this, K?
Last edited by a moderator:
Ya slipped under the wire John D
slippery fellow that I am... tee hee
In our study of the Word of God we must try to learn what God's meaning is rather than what we or others only think it means... and terms like angel can become familiar jargon / terms we pour meaning into that the Bible never intended. Cherubs and Seraphs are the typical images of the term angel (and often times God used them as messengers). But angels can be people or even Persons of the Godhead so long as they are sent by another.
John 14:26 (KJV)
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 (KJV)
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
The Holy Spirit is a sent one of the Father and of the Son. An Angel of the LORD.
John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Jesus is an Angel of the LORD.
Revelation 1:19-20 (KJV)
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Was the letter written to cherubs and seraphs overseeing the Churches?
Would not God have had other means to communicate with them if they were?
Letters written by a man?
John 14:26 (KJV)
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 (KJV)
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
The Holy Spirit is a sent one of the Father and of the Son. An Angel of the LORD.
John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Jesus is an Angel of the LORD.
Revelation 1:19-20 (KJV)
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Was the letter written to cherubs and seraphs overseeing the Churches?
Would not God have had other means to communicate with them if they were?
Letters written by a man?
Malachi
Member
JohnD
What do posts 32 and 39 have to do with Michael = Jesus? Either Michael is a creature (as Scripture shows) or he is a pseudo-creator (as some fringe groups believe). We know that angels are messengers, but are also angels at the same time. Michael is simply an archangel, and there are hierarchies within the angelic world.
You have not stated your position on Michael (or did I miss it?)
Malachi
Member
Cherubim and Seraphim have very specific responsibilities in Heaven. So no, they could not be involved with the seven churches on earth. There are many other angels which could.
Why? Whenever God wanted to communicate with men through angels, he sent them to earth appearing as men and speaking human language.
Certainly. But the words of Christ and the words of the Holy Spirit. Just like all the other Scriptures.