Are civil authorities under the authority of God or Satan?

[jmt356]

Are civil authorities under the authority of God or Satan?

The following verses indicate that Satan governs the world:

Satan offered all of the kingdoms of the world because they belonged to him; Jesus never disputed that these kingdoms were under Satan:
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. Mat 4:9 And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me."

Satan is the “ruler of this world”:
John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
John 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: … John 16:11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Satan is the “god of this age”:
2Co 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Satan is the “prince of the power of the air”:
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience.

The whole world lies “under the sway” of Satan:
1Jn 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

If Satan controls this world, then surely he must also control the governing authorities. How could he offer "all the kingdoms of the world and their glory” (Mat 4:8) to Jesus if he did not control the rulers and authorities of these kingdoms. If he could submit the authority of these kingdoms to Jesus, then surely he controls their governors and authorities.

However, this seems to be incompatible with Paul’s letter to the Romans, which states that the civil authority is “appointed by God” (Rom 13:1), equates the civil authority with God’s “ordinance” (Rom 13:2) and states that the civil authority is “God's minister” (Rom 13:4):

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
Rom 13:2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
Rom 13:4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

We are therefore to support the authorities by paying taxes (Rom 13:6-7) and praying for our rulers (1Ti 2:1-2):
Rom 13:6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing.
Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
1Ti 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,
1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.

Aren’t Paul’s letters to the Romans and Timothy in contravention of the larger scriptural message that the kingdoms and governments of this world are under the authority of Satan?

 

[Eugene]

Romans 13:1-2 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God." God is the authority of all He lends it to.

Through scripture it is evident that Pharaoh was not godly, but God used him for His purpose.
Romans 9:17 "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."

We also read of God using Satan to test Job in Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? I would suppose that Job would not have agreed to this had he knew of this verbal exchange.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

 

[posthuman]

do you think Satan could have any authority over the world if God did not allow him to, for an appointed time?

 

[Gregg]

Are civil authorities under the authority of God or Satan?
[snip]
Aren’t Paul’s letters to the Romans and Timothy in contravention of the larger scriptural message that the kingdoms and governments of this world are under the authority of Satan?

All authority is under God, under the LORD Jesus Christ.

"who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him" (1Pet 3:22 ESV).

". . . and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet" (Eph 1:20 b - Eph 1:22 a ESV).

"and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority" (Col 2:10 ESV).

 

[Sinthesis]

Exactly which civil authorities are you questioning?

 

[chessman]

Are civil authorities under the authority of God or Satan?

I say they are under the authority of God. God has put civil authorities in place per what Paul says in the Rom 13:1 passage.

Aren’t Paul’s letters to the Romans and Timothy in contravention of the larger scriptural message that the kingdoms and governments of this world are under the authority of Satan?

No, Paul's letters do not contradict the larger Scriptural message. Let's evaluate each passage that you've presented to see if any actually do indicate the message; "that the kingdoms and governments of this world are under the authority of Satan" as you claim. Either in part or taken as a whole, implied or direct. I notice first that none of the passages you mention directly say "the kingdoms and governments of this world are under the authority of Satan" nor really anything close to that. Yet, on the other hand we have Paul saying:

Romans 13:1 (LEB) Let every person be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except by God, and those that exist are put in place by God. ​

Which is clearly saying that the governing authorities are put in place by God, not Satan. There is no governing authority except by God.


"Are civil authorities under the authority of God or Satan?"

The following verses indicate that Satan governs the world:

I disagree and have addressed each passage one by one:
1.

Mat 4:8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. Mat 4:9 And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me."

When Satan said to Jesus "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me" he lied. Satan is a liar (John 8:44) and has no truth in what he said. Nor does this first passage you mention say that the kingdoms Satan showed Jesus belonged to Satan. It says "kingdoms of the world and their glory". God created the world (Gen 1:1) and it's kingdoms (Rom 13:1) for His glory (Ps 72).

John 8:44 (LEB) You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father! That one was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand firm in the truth, because truth is not in him. Whenever he speaks the lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies.
​

The kingdoms shown to Jesus no more belonged to Satan than the rocks did that Satan tempted Jesus to turn into bread.

2.

Satan is the “ruler of this world”:
John 12:31 ....

What makes you think the "ruler of this world" within these verses is Satan? I think it's clear that what Jesus meant by "ruler of this world" here is death. Here's why:

John 12:31-33 (LEB)
Now is the judgment of this world! Now the ruler of this world will be thrown out! And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” Now he said this to indicate by what sort of death he was going to die. ​

3.

Satan is the “god of this age”:
2Co 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Again, what makes you think "the god of this age" is Satan versus death? Death is mentioned several times, but never Satan here in this passage:

2 Corinthians 4:3-4, 11 (LEB) But if indeed our gospel is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that they would not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

For we who are alive are continually being handed over to death because of Jesus, in order that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our mortal flesh. ​

'Veiled among those perishing', 'blinded among those of the god of this age'. Two ways to say the same thing. Yet nothing is said here about Satan being overr Government authorities.

4.

Satan is the “prince of the power of the air”:
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience.

Again, nothing here says anything whatsoever about Satan or Governments.

Ephesians 2:1-3 (LEB) And you, although you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit now working in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all formerly lived in the desires of our flesh, doing the will of the flesh and of the mind, and we were children of wrath by nature, as also the rest of them were. ​

'Dead in your sins',
'Walking according to the course of the world',
'Walking according to the ruler of the authority of the air',
sounds like three different ways to say the same thing to me. You're dead without Christ.

Again, though, nothing is said about Satan or governments, however. Yet you are using this passage and the others to say Satan rules Governments, contray to what Rom 13 does say about this matter. At most, you might claim from this passage that Satan rules the "air" if you wanted to speculate that Paul means Satan. And that's nothing like Satan ruling the kingdoms or Governments.

5.

The whole world lies “under the sway” of Satan:
1Jn 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

We [Christians] are of God (15:19a) and thusly have Eternal Life (15:20) (i.e. no-death).

But once again, this verse doesn't say anything about Governments being "ruled" by Satan. It's distinguishing Christians (having Eternal Life in God) from nonChristians (who face death in wickedness). It's not describing who rules or sways Governments. It never even mentions Civil Authorites.

It's also interesting that the word "sway" or "rule" or "power" is not even in the actual text.

1 John 5:19-20 (LEB) We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, in order that we may know the one who is true, and we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life.
​

The KJV is closest to the literal text.

1 John 5:19 (KJV) And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

1 John 5:19 (NKJV) We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

1 John 5:19 (NASB) We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.​

In the actual Greek text there is no word that's translated "sway" or "power" or "rule". The modern translations that do insert something there, italicizes the words they insert to indicate it's not literally in the Greek text.

Anyway, my point is none of these verses contradict Rom 13.

​

 

[Free]

Are civil authorities under the authority of God or Satan?

The following verses indicate that Satan governs the world:

Satan offered all of the kingdoms of the world because they belonged to him; Jesus never disputed that these kingdoms were under Satan:
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. Mat 4:9 And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me."

Satan is the “ruler of this world”:
John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
John 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: … John 16:11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Satan is the “god of this age”:
2Co 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Satan is the “prince of the power of the air”:
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience.

The whole world lies “under the sway” of Satan:
1Jn 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

If Satan controls this world, then surely he must also control the governing authorities. How could he offer "all the kingdoms of the world and their glory” (Mat 4:8) to Jesus if he did not control the rulers and authorities of these kingdoms. If he could submit the authority of these kingdoms to Jesus, then surely he controls their governors and authorities.

However, this seems to be incompatible with Paul’s letter to the Romans, which states that the civil authority is “appointed by God” (Rom 13:1), equates the civil authority with God’s “ordinance” (Rom 13:2) and states that the civil authority is “God's minister” (Rom 13:4):

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
Rom 13:2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
Rom 13:4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

We are therefore to support the authorities by paying taxes (Rom 13:6-7) and praying for our rulers (1Ti 2:1-2):
Rom 13:6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing.
Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
1Ti 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,
1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.

Aren’t Paul’s letters to the Romans and Timothy in contravention of the larger scriptural message that the kingdoms and governments of this world are under the authority of Satan?

Satan no longer rules the world. John 12:31 and John 16:11, which you quoted, show this to be the case. So, no, there is no problem with what Paul has written.

 

[jmt356]

SYNTHESIS WROTE:

"Exactly which civil authorities are you questioning?"
​

My question refers to ALL civil authorities (i.e., the President of the US; the Mayor of NYC; the Parliamentarians of Europe; the Shah of Iran; etc.) and whether all of these people are given their positions by Satan.

POSTHUMAN WROTE:

“do you think Satan could have any authority over the world if God did not allow him to, for an appointed time?”​

I do not believe Satan could have authority over the world if God did not allow him to. The question is whether Satan has authority over the world (regardless of whether it is through God’s permission) and thus whether the authority given to our governors is given through Satan (with or without God’s permission).

RESPONSE TO CHESSMAN:
Thank you for your excellent and thorough explanations, which I find to be very good, but not 100% convincing. Please find my comments below:

“When Satan said to Jesus "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me" he lied. Satan is a liar (John 8:44) and has no truth in what he said. Nor does this first passage you mention say that the kingdoms Satan showed Jesus belonged to Satan. It says "kingdoms of the world and their glory". God created the world (Gen 1:1) and it's kingdoms (Rom 13:1) for His glory (Ps 72).”​

You are correct in stating that the account in the Book of John does not state that the kingdoms that Satan showed Jesus belonged to Satan. However, in the Book of Luke, Satan specifically states "All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for THIS HAS BEEN DELIVERED TO ME, and I give it to whomever I wish” (Luke 4:6). Perhaps we can reconcile this passage with Paul’s letters by simply concluding that Satan is lying and that the authority has NOT been delivered to him. But why then did Jesus never dispute that these kingdoms were under Satan? I understand that this is an argument from silence, but I would have expected Jesus to point to Satan’s lie if what Satan was saying was untrue.

'Satan is the “ruler of this world”:
'John 12:31 ....
'What makes you think the "ruler of this world" within these verses is Satan? I think it's clear that what Jesus meant by "ruler of this world" here is death.'​

“Ruler” is translated in several translations, such as the ASV, as “prince” of this world. A ruler or prince is an active agent that does things (e.g., blinds minds (2Co 4:4) and works in the sons of disobedience (Eph 2:2)). Death is not an active agent; it is simply a condition corresponding to the state of not being alive. Death does not blind minds or work in the sons of disobedience.
That the “ruler of this world” is Satan is made clear by several prominent Bible commentaries. For example, Barnes writes that the “ruler” or “prince” of this world is “Satan, or the devil, Joh_14:30; Joh_16:11. He is also called the god of this world, 2Co_4:4; Eph_6:12; ‘The rulers of the darkness of this world’ - that is, the rulers of this dark world a well-known Hebraism. He is also called ‘the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience,’ Eph_2:2. All these names are given him from the influence or power which he has over the men of this world, because the great mass of men have been under his control and subject to his will.

'Veiled among those perishing', 'blinded among those of the god of this age'. Two ways to say the same thing. Yet nothing is said here about Satan being overr Government authorities.​

The Gospel is veiled to “those perishing,” whose minds have been “by the god of this age” (2Co 4:3-4). “Perishing” means they are dying and “blinded by the god of this age” means that they are spiritually lost by the “god of this age.” The question is: Who is the god of this age? Death cannot blind someone because it is not an active agent. Rather, the “god” must be a person or demon that is capable to acting.

'Dead in your sins',
'Walking according to the course of the world',
'Walking according to the ruler of the authority of the air',
sounds like three different ways to say the same thing to me. You're dead without Christ.​

I would agree that “'Dead in your sins,” “Walking according to the course of the world” and “Walking according to the ruler of the authority of the air” are all similar ways of pointing to the fact that one is dead without Christ. But the question remains: Who or what is the “ruler of the authority of the air” according to whom the dead walk? It must be an active agent, such as Satan, rather than a condition such as death, since death does not have the ability to influence the way the disobedient walk.

1Jn 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
once again, this verse doesn't say anything about Governments being "ruled" by Satan. It's distinguishing Christians (having Eternal Life in God) from nonChristians (who face death in wickedness). It's not describing who rules or sways Governments. It never even mentions Civil Authorites.​

This verse states that the “whole world” is under the “sway” of Satan. The “whole world” includes governments. Christians are to separate themselves from this world and come under the authority of Christ, becoming citizens of an other-worldly kingdom, not the kingdoms of the world that are under the “sway” of Satan.

It's also interesting that the word "sway" or "rule" or "power" is not even in the actual text.
In the actual Greek text there is no word that's translated "sway" or "power" or "rule". The modern translations that do insert something there, italicizes the words they insert to indicate it's not literally in the Greek text.​

I use the NKJV. “Under the sway of” is in italics. Does this mean it is not in the original?

FREE WROTE:

"Satan no longer rules the world. John 12:31 and John 16:11, which you quoted, show this to be the case. So, no, there is no problem with what Paul has written."​

Initially, I thought I could reconcile the apparent contradiction between the verses that indicate that Satan is the “ruler of this world,” “god of this age” and “prince of the power of the air” with those that indicate that the civil authority is “appointed by God” as God’s “minister” by holding that prior to the death and resurrection of Jesus on the cross, Satan was the ruler of the world. He had dominion over man, who was through sin condemned. Prior to his death and resurrection, Jesus repeated many times over that Satan was the “ruler of this world,” but he also said that Satan, the “ruler of this world,” will be “cast out” (John 12:30) and is “judged” (John 16:11). I thought the apparent contradiction could be reconciled by reading Jesus’s words as referring to the day that was coming in which He would vanquish sin through the resurrection. On that day, Satan would be “cast out” and would lose his dominion over the world; Jesus would be given all authority. This is in accordance with Jesus’s parting words: “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth” (Mat 28:18). Thus, through the death and resurrection, Satan’s authority over the world was transferred to Jesus. In the post-resurrection epoch, the civil authority is “appointed by God” (Rom 13:1) and is “God's minister” (Rom 13:4), to which we must pay taxes (Rom 13:6-7) and for which we are to pray (1Ti 2:1-2).

But this explanation is inadequate for the following reasons:

- It fails to address Paul’s Epistles, which were written after Jesus’s death and resurrection and yet refer to Satan as the “god of this age” (2Co 4:4) and state that the whole world lies under his “sway” (1Jn 5:19);
- The argument assumes that right after the resurrection of Christ, all governments would have been redeemed and restored to Christ (in contrast to pre-resurrection governments that were still under the power of Satan). Thus, after the resurrection, governments could receive Christians’ support through taxes (Rom 13:6-7) and prayer (1Ti 2:1-2). However, the reality is that for 300 years after the resurrection of Christ, the government that ruled over the Christians was a brutal empire that persecuted the Christians and fed them to the lions. Satan was still in a sense the “ruler” of governments. The resurrection may have immediately expelled Satan’s power over individual believers, but governments remained under the sway of Satan; they continued to do all kinds of wicked acts.
​

GENERAL OBSERVATION: THERE MUST BE SOME RECONCILIATION OF THE VARIOUS ACCOUNTS
There must be some reconciliation between the two accounts because the apparent contradiction appears within the writings of Paul. I would not be so firm about believing that a reconciliation were possible had apparently contradicting texts come from different authors; perhaps one author was focusing on one fact while another author was focusing on another. But here, within Paul’s own writings, I find strain. Paul must have either believed that governments were under God or that they were under Satan; not both. So how can we reconcile the following texts?

- Satan is the “god of this age” (Paul).
- Satan is the “prince of the power of the air” (Paul).
- Jesus is “the head of all principality and power” (Col 2:10) (Paul).
- The civil authority is “appointed by God” as God’s “minister” (Paul).
- Christians are to pay taxes to and pray for the civil authority (Paul).​

 

[chessman]

I use the NKJV. “Under the sway of” is in italics. Does this mean it is not in the original?

Yes, that's what it means.
Read the introduction/editorial comments of your NKJV.

View attachment 6027

This verse states that the “whole world” is under the “sway” of Satan. The “whole world” includes governments.

Let me ask you; Jesus Christ came into "the world" per John 3:17, Do you think Jesus was "swayed" by Satan?

 

[gr8grace3]

​

GENERAL OBSERVATION: THERE MUST BE SOME RECONCILIATION OF THE VARIOUS ACCOUNTS
There must be some reconciliation between the two accounts because the apparent contradiction appears within the writings of Paul. I would not be so firm about believing that a reconciliation were possible had apparently contradicting texts come from different authors; perhaps one author was focusing on one fact while another author was focusing on another. But here, within Paul’s own writings, I find strain. Paul must have either believed that governments were under God or that they were under Satan; not both. So how can we reconcile the following texts?

- Satan is the “god of this age” (Paul).
- Satan is the “prince of the power of the air” (Paul).
- Jesus is “the head of all principality and power” (Col 2:10) (Paul).
- The civil authority is “appointed by God” as God’s “minister” (Paul).
- Christians are to pay taxes to and pray for the civil authority (Paul).​

I believe in Romans 13 Paul is specifically talking about The divine institution of nationalism. And Rome was Gods new client nation at that time, since Israel fell. Rome was being ushered in a s Gods client nation and God has a system and rules set for His client nations.....the USA is Gods client nation at the moment. So I believe Paul, in Romans 13 is addressing those nations that operate under Gods plan and system as a nation. And we see many nations that do not.

I think that one thing that often gets overlooked is that Gods client nation(are supposed to) operate under the ten commandments and that those commandments are for a NATION.....believers and unbelievers alike. And those 10 commandments set a nation free and secure personal freedom. And the Government should uphold those standards and laws. And Paul was addressing Rome at that time.

So Paul is talking about A Nation that is operating in the bounds of the system that God has set up for a people to be free. And has checks and balances on power.Paul is not addressing Hitlers Germany!

I do believe satan is the god of this world at this moment, Heb 1:13~~King James Bible
But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Take the USA for example, I love my country and would die for it, but it has slipped and is heading down,IMO. However, it is still a free nation and basically operates on the freedom principle and still is Gods client nation at this time. I believe satan has operatives in all aspects of it but I still pray for its leaders and pay my taxes and obey the laws and authorities because this nation is still basically operating on the whole as Gods client nation.

So in a nutshell, Paul is speaking of a nation that has Gods system of Government set up. Gods System is Nationalism, and personal freedom and if that Government system is set up in the right way, we should be under is subjection. My subjection to the right authority ensures the freedom/life of the next guy.

 

[childeye]

I believe that the current powers of the world are ordained by God but that they are becoming corrupted by Satan, culminating in the kingdom of the antichrist, which is a spirit that is contrary to the Spirit of Christ. God allows all of this as a means to destroy the wickedness of vanity. Consequently, there are semantics associated with the circumstances, which appear as contradictions in scripture but in reality are not contradictory at all.

 

[Deborah13]

​

I believe in Romans 13 Paul is specifically talking about The divine institution of nationalism. And Rome was Gods new client nation at that time, since Israel fell. Rome was being ushered in a s Gods client nation and God has a system and rules set for His client nations.....the USA is Gods client nation at the moment. So I believe Paul, in Romans 13 is addressing those nations that operate under Gods plan and system as a nation. And we see many nations that do not.

I think that one thing that often gets overlooked is that Gods client nation(are supposed to) operate under the ten commandments and that those commandments are for a NATION.....believers and unbelievers alike. And those 10 commandments set a nation free and secure personal freedom. And the Government should uphold those standards and laws. And Paul was addressing Rome at that time.

So Paul is talking about A Nation that is operating in the bounds of the system that God has set up for a people to be free. And has checks and balances on power.Paul is not addressing Hitlers Germany!

I do believe satan is the god of this world at this moment, Heb 1:13~~King James Bible
But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Take the USA for example, I love my country and would die for it, but it has slipped and is heading down,IMO. However, it is still a free nation and basically operates on the freedom principle and still is Gods client nation at this time. I believe satan has operatives in all aspects of it but I still pray for its leaders and pay my taxes and obey the laws and authorities because this nation is still basically operating on the whole as Gods client nation.

So in a nutshell, Paul is speaking of a nation that has Gods system of Government set up. Gods System is Nationalism, and personal freedom and if that Government system is set up in the right way, we should be under is subjection. My subjection to the right authority ensures the freedom/life of the next guy.

I have never heard the term 'client nation' used before. Could you given a definition/description of what that is? Thanks

 

[gr8grace3]

I have never heard the term 'client nation' used before. Could you given a definition/description of what that is? Thanks

It is taken from the divine establishment of Israel as a nation. Israel had a system of Government and was really Gods Priestly nation.

one could write pages on Gods client nations but simply put they are free nations that house believers and give believers the freedom to live the spiritual life and to follow the plan of God. Some of the basics are:

It must evangelize its own population at home.

It must communicate Bible doctrine to the believers in the nation.

It is responsible for the custodianship of Bible doctrine.

It provides a haven for the Jews.(Church age client nations)

It is responsible to send out missionaries to evangelize other nations.

And Gods client nation follows divine establishment rules(these are for believers and unbelievers) from God....a.few:

Freewill.....the people have the right to make their own decisions about God. For or against. For the law breakers ,"nationalism" and its laws takes care of them.

marriage....one man and one woman and the man is the head of the household. Which is a symbol of a national entity....headship,authority and governing a institution.

Family....the parents have the authority in this institution.

Nationalism..... to protect the individual and let the individual operate from freedom and his own volition.

 

[Deborah13]

It is taken from the divine establishment of Israel as a nation. Israel had a system of Government and was really Gods Priestly nation.

A theocracy.

one could write pages on Gods client nations but simply put they are free nations that house believers and give believers the freedom to live the spiritual life and to follow the plan of God. Some of the basics are:

It must evangelize its own population at home.

It must communicate Bible doctrine to the believers in the nation.

It is responsible for the custodianship of Bible doctrine.

It provides a haven for the Jews.(Church age client nations)

It is responsible to send out missionaries to evangelize other nations.

And Gods client nation follows divine establishment rules(these are for believers and unbelievers) from God....a.few:

Freewill.....the people have the right to make their own decisions about God. For or against. For the law breakers ,"nationalism" and its laws takes care of them.

marriage....one man and one woman and the man is the head of the household. Which is a symbol of a national entity....headship,authority and governing a institution.

Family....the parents have the authority in this institution.

Nationalism..... to protect the individual and let the individual operate from freedom and his own volition.

Ok thanks.

 

[gr8grace3]

A theocracy.

Which is the best form of Government as long as Gods rules are followed.

Which is why, in the end, it will be a theocracy. The perfect King/High Priest will rule all. And Gods laws will be followed to the T.

 

[Sinthesis]

A theocracy has never been the best form of government because God's rules have never been followed.

 

[jmt356]

ATTEMPTED RECONCILIATION OF APPARENTLY SELF-CONTRADICTING VERSES
This is my attempted reconciliation of the apparently self-contradicting verses:

Paul writes in 2 Corinthians and Ephesians:
- Satan is the “god of this age” (2Co 4:4) (Paul).
- Satan is the “prince of the power of the air” (Eph 2:2) (Paul).

These verses are not stating that Satan is the ruler of civil authorities or appoints them. Rather, he is reiterating what John writes in 1 John: “the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one” (1Jn 5:19). In other words, Satan has “sway” or influence over the whole world. This influence is comprised of tempting the world into sin and corrupting all of creation with the consequences of sin (e.g., sickness, pain, suffering , death).

Paul then writes in Colossians and Romans:
- Jesus is “the head of all principality and power” (Col 2:10) (Paul).
- The civil authority is “appointed by God” as God’s “minister,” bearing “the sword” to exact vengeance on he “who practices evil” (Rom 13:1-4) (Paul).
- Christians are to pay taxes to and pray for the civil authority (Rom 13:6-7; 1Ti 2:1-2) (Paul).

These verses, in contrast, refer to true authority, not just the power to tempt people into sin. They make clear that all authority ultimately resides in Christ and that God uses the civil authority as His minister to exact justice.

PROBLEM WITH ATTEMPTED EXPLANATION
I would not take issue with my attempted explanation if governments were good. However, the fact that governments are so evil makes it very hard for me to believe that God rather than Satan ultimately controls them and “appoints” the authority as His “minister (Rom 13:1-4). They were, after all, governments that were responsible for the throwing of Israel’s newborn babies into the river (Exo 1:22), putting to death the male children in Bethlehem (Mat 2:16), crucifying Jesus (Mat 27:17-25) and stoning Stephen (Acts 7:59) and other martyrs.

REPLY TO GR8GRACE3
Thank you for your note but I find no Biblical evidence to support a theory of God’s “client” nations. I don’t want to get too far off topic, but I also find no evidence that America, with its historic treatment of slaves, Native Americans and discrimination, is God’s “client state” or follows God’s laws.

Moreover, if God’s client nation is to be a theocracy, then American clearly is not it. The First Amendment Reads:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances”

Moreover, the influence of Christianity in America is on the decline. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_the_United_States, 73% of Americans in identified themselves as Christian in 2012, down from 86% in 1990.

 

[Cturtle]

Are civil authorities under the authority of God or Satan?

The following verses indicate that Satan governs the world:

Satan offered all of the kingdoms of the world because they belonged to him; Jesus never disputed that these kingdoms were under Satan:
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. Mat 4:9 And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me."

Satan is the “ruler of this world”:
John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
John 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: … John 16:11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Satan is the “god of this age”:
2Co 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Satan is the “prince of the power of the air”:
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience.

The whole world lies “under the sway” of Satan:
1Jn 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

If Satan controls this world, then surely he must also control the governing authorities. How could he offer "all the kingdoms of the world and their glory” (Mat 4:8) to Jesus if he did not control the rulers and authorities of these kingdoms. If he could submit the authority of these kingdoms to Jesus, then surely he controls their governors and authorities.

However, this seems to be incompatible with Paul’s letter to the Romans, which states that the civil authority is “appointed by God” (Rom 13:1), equates the civil authority with God’s “ordinance” (Rom 13:2) and states that the civil authority is “God's minister” (Rom 13:4):

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
Rom 13:2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
Rom 13:4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

We are therefore to support the authorities by paying taxes (Rom 13:6-7) and praying for our rulers (1Ti 2:1-2):
Rom 13:6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing.
Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
1Ti 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,
1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.

Aren’t Paul’s letters to the Romans and Timothy in contravention of the larger scriptural message that the kingdoms and governments of this world are under the authority of Satan?

When Jesus was crucified, died and went down to hell and took the keys from the devil. That is when he was removed as ruler of this world. Meaning that our authority that we had in the garden was restored. Thus christian police officers are ministers of God's grace for our good. (Ro. 13:4)

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Try this on for size !!
We as born again Christians are IN the world NOT of this world !!
Satin is god of this world or world ways or the Babylonian sytem in which this world runs on.

This is why we are told to seperate ourselves from this world !!
To Renew our minds with the word of God and His way of doing things!!

This country was for the most part founded on the word of God. Over time this world system has krept into the goverment as well as society today.

This is why it all starts as a choice for every single human being....Choose His way and life or the worlds way and death or curse. In reality he has not the authority over the goverment or controls the goverment UNTIL the goverment allow him to by making bad choices that reflects what the devil can use or work with.

If our goverment leaders would get back to old school, another words such as our for fathers were, we would see an entirely different govermernt. BUT to say satin has thatmuch control is wrong......he comes to kill, still and destroy. he bluffs with pressure and such to get some one to give in and do something his way so he then has the right to comence to destroying, steeling and killing......

 

[chessman]

Satan specifically states "All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for THIS HAS BEEN DELIVERED TO ME, and I give it to whomever I wish” (Luke 4:6). ... why then did Jesus never dispute that these kingdoms were under Satan?

Jesus did dispute Satan's claims:
See the expanded account given by Matthew:

Matthew 4:4 (LEB) But he answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man will not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes out of the mouth of God.” ​

One of the words that came out of the mouth of God is:

Genesis 14:18-19 (LEB) And Melchizedek, the king of Salem, brought out bread and wine. He was the priest of God Most High. And he blessed him and said, “Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Maker of heaven and earth. ​

Was Melchizedek, the king (i.e. ruler/authority) of Salem, under the control and authority of Satan or was He the Priest of God Most High?

Another word that came out of the mouth of God too (through Paul, through The Holy Spirit's inspiration) is:

Romans 13:1 (LEB) Let every person be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except by God, and those that exist are put in place by God. ​

Are civil authorities under the authority of God or Satan?
Per Rom 13:1, there is no authority (governing authority) except by God. God has put governing authorities in place, not Satan!
The only Scripture that conflicts with Rom 13:1 is what Satan said, "THIS HAS BEEN DELIVERED TO ME". Satan lied. It's just that simple.

(2Co 4:4) (Paul) ...... (Eph 2:2) (Paul).

These verses are not stating that Satan is the ruler of civil authorities or appoints them.

That is correct. Neither verse contradicts Rom 13:1. Poof, end of 'apparent conflict'.

I would not take issue with my attempted explanation if governments were good.

Humm??? First, there is no conflict that needs an "attempted explanation" in the first place. Second, some governments I would say are relatively 'good' on a scale of 1 to 10 (eight maybe), some are bad (a 1). So? that doesn't mean God doesn't have authority over them. Just to demonstrate how it's best to leave the decision of what ultimately constitutes good up to God (and His Word), look at one of your examples (They were, after all, governments that were responsible for .. crucifying Jesus (Mat 27:17-25)).

Umm, no crucifixion of Jesus, no resurrection of Jesus. No resurrection of Jesus, no defeat of death by Jesus. No defeat of death, we are all still dead in our sins. Personally I think, all things considered, the crucifying of Jesus was in accordance with God's plan (Luke 22:37) of redemption and thus it was good thing. Plus, I know for a fact that it didn't take God by surprise that it happened (Luke 22:22).

Also, you might notice that Satan entered Judas (not the Govt) in Luke 22:3 to do what had to be done in accordance with Scripture. Judas wasn't a member of the "government" (Luke 22:3-5).