Apousía
Member
Many would like to claim such things, especially those damning others to hell ( sadly, it's rather common by my experience )
I too, grew up under the impression that Heaven is a place separate from Earth ( " somewhere " in the sky ), and that Hell, is likewise a separate location ( " somewhere " hot with fire and suffering galore)
But, by my study, the phrase " in heaven " uses a primary preposition in Greek denoting not necessarily a place, but a place / time / state ( of a situation ), and in examining the construction of the Greek word " Hades ", one finds zero evidence that Hell is what people claim
" In " in the Greek phrase " in heaven " is:
εν en {en} a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest ; TDNT - 2:537,233; prep AV - in 1874, by 141, with 134, among 117, at 112, on 46, through 37, misc 321; 2782 1) in, by, with etc.
(intermediate between 1519 and 1537)
εις eis {ice} ( 1519 ) a primary preposition; TDNT - 2:420,211; prep AV - into 573, to 281, unto 207, for 140, in 138, on 58, toward 29, against 26, misc 321; 1773 1) into, unto, to, towards,
εκ ek {ek} or εξ ex {ex} ( 1537 ) a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative;; prep AV - of 367, from 181, out of 162, by 55, on 34, with 25, misc 97; 921 1) out of, from, by, away from
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In 1st Temple Judaism, " hades / hell " was where the righteous awaited Judgement day
Quite a step from the " all bad people go to hell " dogma that is so often bandied about
In Hebrew , the word " hell " is translated as "
שאול she'owl {sheh-ole'} or שאל sheol {sheh-ole'} ; TWOT - 2303c; n f AV - grave 31, hell 31, pit 3; 65 1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit 1a) the underworld 1b) Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead 1b1) place of no return 1b2) without praise of God 1b3) wicked sent there for punishment 1b4) righteous not abandoned to it 1b5) of the place of exile (fig) 1b6) of extreme degradation in sin
from 7592:
שאל sha'al {shaw-al'} or שאל sha'el {shaw-ale'} a primitive root; TWOT - 2303; v AV - ask 94, enquire 22, desire 9, require 7, borrow 6, salute 4, demand 4, lent 4, request 3, earnestly 2, beg 2, misc 16; 173 1) to ask, enquire, borrow, beg 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to ask, ask for 1a2) to ask (as a favour), borrow 1a3) to enquire, enquire of 1a4) to enquire of, consult (of deity, oracle) 1a5) to seek 1b) (Niphal) to ask for oneself, ask leave of absence 1c) (Piel) 1c1) to enquire, enquire carefully 1c2) to beg, practise beggary 1d) (Hiphil) 1d1) to be given on request 1d2) to grant, make over to, let (one) ask (successfully) or give or lend on request (then) grant or make over to
When we examine the Greek word translated as " hell " ( Hades ) :
αδης hades {hah'-dace} ; TDNT - 1:146,22; n pr loc AV - hell 10, grave 1; 11 1)
from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492
1: α a {al'-fah} of Hebrew origin; TDNT - 1:1,*; letter AV - Alpha 4; 4 1) first letter of Greek alphabet 2) Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end
Alpha as the negative particle:
A – alpha, the first letter of the Greek alphabet. 1/a (alpha) is used as a prefix (called its "privative use") and typically means "no" or "not" (= "un-," "without").
[Greek words, whose first letter (of the root) is alpha, can not take an "alpha-privative" to negate them, so the only way to express their "antithesis" is using a negative particle before them (e.g. mē, ou).]
and
strong's 1492
ειδω eido {i-do'} or οιδα oida {oy'-da} a root word; TDNT - 5:116, *; v AV - know 282, cannot tell + 3756 8, know how 7, wist 6, misc 19, see 314, behold 16, look 5, perceive 5, vr see 3, vr know 1; 666 1) to see 1a) to perceive with the eyes 1b) to perceive by any of the senses 1c) to perceive, notice, discern, discover 1d) to see 1d1) i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything 1d2) to pay attention, observe 1d3) to see about something 1d31) i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it 1d4) to inspect, examine 1d5) to look at, behold 1e) to experience any state or condition 1f) to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit 2) to know 2a) to know of anything 2b) to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive 2b1) of any fact 2b2) the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning 2b3) to know how, to be skilled in 2c) to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)
So the very construction of the word " Hades " itself implies that being " in Hell " really just refers to a state of being separate from God, ie " not knowing " ( The things of God ) as per the use of the prefix " a " as the negative particle
It's really more in line with what " outer darkness is " ( separation from God / not knowing the things of God )
An examination of the words " pit " in Hebrew and Greek confirm this
In Hebrew, " pit " is : בור , ( bowr ) which is from the root word בור buwr {boor} a primitive root; - declare - to make clear, clear up, explain, prove , which in turn is in the sense of באר bo'r {bore} which ultimately derives from the word באר ba'ar {baw-ar'} a primitive root; - plain , plainly , declare- to make plain, distinct, to make clear, to declare*, *letters on a tablet
In Greek, in the New Testament, however, the " pit " is " bottomless ", αβυσσος ( abussos ) ( Abyss ) which is from a variation of : βυθος buthos {boo-thos'} - deep , the bottom or depth of the sea, which is a variation of βαθος bathos {bath'-os} depth , deepness , deep thing depth, height of the deep sea , metaphorically as deep, extreme, poverty or of the deep things of God
The " abyss " or " pit " was a much older idiomatic phrasing that referred to receiving the hidden knowledge from God, as revealed to a High Priest ( cf Sin-leqi-unninni's incipit " he who saw of the abyss " for some pre-biblical examples ) and really refer to proper exegesis of texts that pertained directly to a High Priest
After I was shown these things, every time I heard somebody damning another person
" You are going to hell "
...it took on a rather comical air, in that the person doing the damning probably has zero clue about the origins of these words or what they actually mean
What you really have are Heaven and Hell describing antithetical concepts
Knowledge ( pit ) VS ignorance ( Hades ) ( of God and Godly matters )
Feel free to move this to a more apropros section if need be
Cheers
I too, grew up under the impression that Heaven is a place separate from Earth ( " somewhere " in the sky ), and that Hell, is likewise a separate location ( " somewhere " hot with fire and suffering galore)
But, by my study, the phrase " in heaven " uses a primary preposition in Greek denoting not necessarily a place, but a place / time / state ( of a situation ), and in examining the construction of the Greek word " Hades ", one finds zero evidence that Hell is what people claim
" In " in the Greek phrase " in heaven " is:
εν en {en} a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest ; TDNT - 2:537,233; prep AV - in 1874, by 141, with 134, among 117, at 112, on 46, through 37, misc 321; 2782 1) in, by, with etc.
(intermediate between 1519 and 1537)
εις eis {ice} ( 1519 ) a primary preposition; TDNT - 2:420,211; prep AV - into 573, to 281, unto 207, for 140, in 138, on 58, toward 29, against 26, misc 321; 1773 1) into, unto, to, towards,
εκ ek {ek} or εξ ex {ex} ( 1537 ) a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative;; prep AV - of 367, from 181, out of 162, by 55, on 34, with 25, misc 97; 921 1) out of, from, by, away from
---------------------------------------------
In 1st Temple Judaism, " hades / hell " was where the righteous awaited Judgement day
Quite a step from the " all bad people go to hell " dogma that is so often bandied about
In Hebrew , the word " hell " is translated as "
שאול she'owl {sheh-ole'} or שאל sheol {sheh-ole'} ; TWOT - 2303c; n f AV - grave 31, hell 31, pit 3; 65 1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit 1a) the underworld 1b) Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead 1b1) place of no return 1b2) without praise of God 1b3) wicked sent there for punishment 1b4) righteous not abandoned to it 1b5) of the place of exile (fig) 1b6) of extreme degradation in sin
from 7592:
שאל sha'al {shaw-al'} or שאל sha'el {shaw-ale'} a primitive root; TWOT - 2303; v AV - ask 94, enquire 22, desire 9, require 7, borrow 6, salute 4, demand 4, lent 4, request 3, earnestly 2, beg 2, misc 16; 173 1) to ask, enquire, borrow, beg 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to ask, ask for 1a2) to ask (as a favour), borrow 1a3) to enquire, enquire of 1a4) to enquire of, consult (of deity, oracle) 1a5) to seek 1b) (Niphal) to ask for oneself, ask leave of absence 1c) (Piel) 1c1) to enquire, enquire carefully 1c2) to beg, practise beggary 1d) (Hiphil) 1d1) to be given on request 1d2) to grant, make over to, let (one) ask (successfully) or give or lend on request (then) grant or make over to
When we examine the Greek word translated as " hell " ( Hades ) :
αδης hades {hah'-dace} ; TDNT - 1:146,22; n pr loc AV - hell 10, grave 1; 11 1)
from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492
1: α a {al'-fah} of Hebrew origin; TDNT - 1:1,*; letter AV - Alpha 4; 4 1) first letter of Greek alphabet 2) Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end
Alpha as the negative particle:
A – alpha, the first letter of the Greek alphabet. 1/a (alpha) is used as a prefix (called its "privative use") and typically means "no" or "not" (= "un-," "without").
[Greek words, whose first letter (of the root) is alpha, can not take an "alpha-privative" to negate them, so the only way to express their "antithesis" is using a negative particle before them (e.g. mē, ou).]
and
strong's 1492
ειδω eido {i-do'} or οιδα oida {oy'-da} a root word; TDNT - 5:116, *; v AV - know 282, cannot tell + 3756 8, know how 7, wist 6, misc 19, see 314, behold 16, look 5, perceive 5, vr see 3, vr know 1; 666 1) to see 1a) to perceive with the eyes 1b) to perceive by any of the senses 1c) to perceive, notice, discern, discover 1d) to see 1d1) i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything 1d2) to pay attention, observe 1d3) to see about something 1d31) i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it 1d4) to inspect, examine 1d5) to look at, behold 1e) to experience any state or condition 1f) to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit 2) to know 2a) to know of anything 2b) to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive 2b1) of any fact 2b2) the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning 2b3) to know how, to be skilled in 2c) to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)
So the very construction of the word " Hades " itself implies that being " in Hell " really just refers to a state of being separate from God, ie " not knowing " ( The things of God ) as per the use of the prefix " a " as the negative particle
It's really more in line with what " outer darkness is " ( separation from God / not knowing the things of God )
An examination of the words " pit " in Hebrew and Greek confirm this
In Hebrew, " pit " is : בור , ( bowr ) which is from the root word בור buwr {boor} a primitive root; - declare - to make clear, clear up, explain, prove , which in turn is in the sense of באר bo'r {bore} which ultimately derives from the word באר ba'ar {baw-ar'} a primitive root; - plain , plainly , declare- to make plain, distinct, to make clear, to declare*, *letters on a tablet
In Greek, in the New Testament, however, the " pit " is " bottomless ", αβυσσος ( abussos ) ( Abyss ) which is from a variation of : βυθος buthos {boo-thos'} - deep , the bottom or depth of the sea, which is a variation of βαθος bathos {bath'-os} depth , deepness , deep thing depth, height of the deep sea , metaphorically as deep, extreme, poverty or of the deep things of God
The " abyss " or " pit " was a much older idiomatic phrasing that referred to receiving the hidden knowledge from God, as revealed to a High Priest ( cf Sin-leqi-unninni's incipit " he who saw of the abyss " for some pre-biblical examples ) and really refer to proper exegesis of texts that pertained directly to a High Priest
After I was shown these things, every time I heard somebody damning another person
" You are going to hell "
...it took on a rather comical air, in that the person doing the damning probably has zero clue about the origins of these words or what they actually mean
What you really have are Heaven and Hell describing antithetical concepts
Knowledge ( pit ) VS ignorance ( Hades ) ( of God and Godly matters )
Feel free to move this to a more apropros section if need be
Cheers
