[_ Old Earth _] Are plants "alive"

[John]

They are a complicated, self replicating food source, but are plants "alive" according t the bible they are not.

Also according to the bible there was no death till after the fall, if adam and eve (and all the animals) ate plants and they were "alive", this would mean that there was death before the fall and god was a lier.

The bible says the life is in the Blood do plants "bleed"

Personally i don't feel bad about moving my lawn, should i feel bad if i through a bag of kittens into a wood chipper? Yes i should,why is that?

 

[Deep Thought]

Just goes to prove how pointless it is trying to rely on the bible as a source of scientific information.

 

[Bryce]

They are a complicated, self replicating food source, but are plants "alive" according t the bible they are not.

Also according to the bible there was no death till after the fall, if adam and eve (and all the animals) ate plants and they were "alive", this would mean that there was death before the fall and god was a lier.

The bible says the life is in the Blood do plants "bleed"

Personally i don't feel bad about moving my lawn, should i feel bad if i through a bag of kittens into a wood chipper? Yes i should,why is that?

this seeming problem lies in a Biblical understanding of "life," or "living." Note that the Bible makes a sharp distinction between plants and animals. During Day Three of Creation Week, God commanded the inanimate earth to "bring forth plants" (Genesis 1:11,12), while on Day Five, He "created...every living creature that moveth" (v. 21). At this point, and on Day Six to follow, He instituted the concept of giving "life" (Hebrew nephesh) to non-living matterâ€â€something He did not do for plants. This required supernatural creation, and the resultant living animal kingdom was something new and different from all that had gone on before.

The Bible never refers to plants as living. They may "grow," or "flourish," but they do not "live." Neither do they "die." The Bible teaches that they may "wither," or "fade," but not "die," since they are not "alive," having neither "life" (nephesh), nor breath of life" (ruach), nor "blood" (i.e. "the life of the flesh is in the blood" [Leviticus 17:11]). This state may be analogous to lack of consciousness, so that, while biologically alive, plants are therefore not Biblically "living." A similar argument can be made for some of the "lower" animals (perhaps some types of worms, sponges, etc.), and certainly for protozoans and viruses. Their "death" would not constitute death of truly living organisms.

http://www.icr.org/article/1099%20/

 

[Jayls5]

Why would the Bible's position on life and non-life have any bearing on science and its methods of categorizing life?

 

[Snidey]

Why would the Bible's position on life and non-life have any bearing on science and its methods of categorizing life?

Such questions are rarely considered when one funnels his or her worldview through the narrow keyhole of Christianity.

The reason you don't feel bad mowing your lawn is because of plants lacking consciousness. You can't inflict physical pain upon a blade of grass.

 

[John]

The Bible never refers to plants as living. They may "grow," or "flourish," but they do not "live." Neither do they "die." The Bible teaches that they may "wither," or "fade," but not "die," since they are not "alive," having neither "life" (nephesh), nor breath of life" (ruach), nor "blood" (i.e. "the life of the flesh is in the blood" [Leviticus 17:11]). This state may be analogous to lack of consciousness, so that, while biologically alive, plants are therefore not Biblically "living." A similar argument can be made for some of the "lower" animals (perhaps some types of worms, sponges, etc.), and certainly for protozoans and viruses. Their "death" would not constitute death of truly living organisms.

Amen.

 

[proponent]

Do you have any scientific evidence that plants are not alive?
Learned these in biology but taken from wikipedia for convenience
1. Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, sweating to reduce temperature.
2. Organization: Being composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
3. Metabolism: Consumption of energy by converting nonliving material into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
4. Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of synthesis than catalysis. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter. The particular species begins to multiply and expand as the evolution continues to flourish.
5. Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.
6. Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism when touched to complex reactions involving all the senses of higher animals. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun or an animal chasing its prey.
7. Reproduction: The ability to produce new organisms. Reproduction can be the division of one cell to form two new cells. Usually the term is applied to the production of a new individual (either asexually, from a single parent organism, or sexually, from at least two differing parent organisms), although strictly speaking it also describes the production of new cells in the process of growth.
Plant's have all of these qualities. Other than in the Bible, where can I find evidence that plants are not alive?

 

[John]

Do you have any scientific evidence that plants are not alive?
Learned these in biology but taken from wikipedia for convenience
1. Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, sweating to reduce temperature.
2. Organization: Being composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
3. Metabolism: Consumption of energy by converting nonliving material into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
4. Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of synthesis than catalysis. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter. The particular species begins to multiply and expand as the evolution continues to flourish.
5. Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.
6. Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism when touched to complex reactions involving all the senses of higher animals. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun or an animal chasing its prey.
7. Reproduction: The ability to produce new organisms. Reproduction can be the division of one cell to form two new cells. Usually the term is applied to the production of a new individual (either asexually, from a single parent organism, or sexually, from at least two differing parent organisms), although strictly speaking it also describes the production of new cells in the process of growth.
Plant's have all of these qualities. Other than in the Bible, where can I find evidence that plants are not alive?

Yes, plants are a complex, self replicating food source, but they are not "alive" in the sense that you,me, or my dog is.

 

[Jayls5]

Do you have any scientific evidence that plants are not alive?
Learned these in biology but taken from wikipedia for convenience
1. Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, sweating to reduce temperature.
2. Organization: Being composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
3. Metabolism: Consumption of energy by converting nonliving material into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
4. Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of synthesis than catalysis. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter. The particular species begins to multiply and expand as the evolution continues to flourish.
5. Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.
6. Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism when touched to complex reactions involving all the senses of higher animals. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun or an animal chasing its prey.
7. Reproduction: The ability to produce new organisms. Reproduction can be the division of one cell to form two new cells. Usually the term is applied to the production of a new individual (either asexually, from a single parent organism, or sexually, from at least two differing parent organisms), although strictly speaking it also describes the production of new cells in the process of growth.
Plant's have all of these qualities. Other than in the Bible, where can I find evidence that plants are not alive?

Yes, plants are a complex, self replicating food source, but they are not "alive" in the sense that you,me, or my dog is.

Define sense. What "sense" are you talking about?

Edit:
Actually nevermind. Don't worry about it. The bible's definition of life might be totally different from science's, and I don't care. Science classified it that way, and that's the one I use. You can go ahead and say it's not living according to the bible, and that's fine. As long as you don't say plants aren't living according to science, I have no issues here.

 

[John]

Sense as in plants don't have:

A brain.
They Don't Bleed.
Think.
Have various Organs like us.
Eyes.
Etc.

 

[Snidey]

So eyes are somehow important to being alive?

Plants are alive, as we are.

 

[John]

So eyes are somehow important to being alive?

Plants are alive, as we are.

Well no, but it makes us clearly distinct from plants.

 

[Snidey]

I don't believe anyone would argue that we are plants.

 

[proponent]

So eyes are somehow important to being alive?

Plants are alive, as we are.

Well no, but it makes us clearly distinct from plants.

We are clearly distinct from worms as well... are they alive? Though they go about it in a very different way than humans, plants have all of the scientifically necessary qualities of life.

 

[John]

So eyes are somehow important to being alive?

Plants are alive, as we are.

Well no, but it makes us clearly distinct from plants.

We are clearly distinct from worms as well... are they alive? Though they go about it in a very different way than humans, plants have all of the scientifically necessary qualities of life.

But even worms have organs.

 

[proponent]

Leaves can be though of as organs. They take in nutrients (Sunlight) for conversion to usable energy. Bark is very similar to skin, and even more similar to scales, as it is a protective outer layer. I still don't see a huge distinction that makes plants 'not alive'.
Edit: Sorry if I implied that bark is an organ.

 

[John]

Leaves can be though of as organs. They take in nutrients (Sunlight) for conversion to usable energy. Bark is very similar to skin, and even more similar to scales, as it is a protective outer layer. I still don't see a huge distinction that makes plants 'not alive'.
Edit: Sorry if I implied that bark is an organ.

Dog,Human,worm all have a heart, my backyard Oak tree does not.

 

[Snidey]

Again, none of this means plants are not alive.

 

[proponent]

So what are your defining qualities of life? A heart?

 

[John]

So what are your defining qualities of life? A heart?

I would have to say the difference is animals, humans and plants. animals and humans have "life" biblically. What does this mean? Maybe animals have a soul like us, Obviously less accountable then us humans. i don't think plants go to heaven :