Are Seeker Churches Biblical?

[Mike]

I don't often say much on the boards these days, but I have reviewed discussions fairly regularly even when I'm not logged in. I don't want anyone to think this is a drive by shout out.

If anyone isn't familiar with the term "seeker church", the way I think about it is a church who's primary purpose is to reach those in the community who are (or have been) turned off by churchy church. Up front, I'll say I've always had a problem with this. As Christians, this should be an important mission for us, but I don't believe weekly worship is the place for it. It's my opinion, and I believe scripture supports, that church should be the place where believers congregate to honor the Lord. Seekers should be welcome, but the worship service shouldn't be tailored to attract them.

I've shared here in the past that for the sake of our teenage children, we left a Missouri Synod Lutheran church where we were long time members about 9 months ago to go to a nondenominational church that really has proven to get them jazzed about their faith again. That much has been a blessing, but I still have some conflict. I'd say half of the songs are vertical toward God, but the opening song is almost always secular pop rock. They also don't have hard core adult Bible study. Those that they have are more introductory in nature. They say they encourage a deeper dive into scripture in small home groups, and they do heavily promote those.

I will say the messages are outstanding! I've often thought if someone was coming to this church as a seeker, the music may seem their speed, but the messages have got to feel hard hitting. They lean on scripture heavily, and there are no soft feel good topics. No rough subject matter is sidestepped. More than any church I've ever attended, they blatantly call out sin and point to Jesus as the way.

Still, the church as a whole has the look and feel of "come as you are and experience the new church" for non-church-goers. To keep myself sane, I focus on the messages and tolerate the music. We have 7 churches in this ministry, most of which are in the metro Detroit area. Only a few of them are in dedicated worship facilities, so they rent school buildings in most cases. This means they can't have Wednesday night services on a regular basis. They do have it about 8 times a year, and when they do, it is full on praise and worship. They have purchased land for our church and plan to build a facility eventually, but they've said they don't plan on having weekly Wednesday night services even then. Man, I hope God changes their minds!

All this to ask if you see a problem with what I've described, or if it sounds about right. Hi to all my old friends and to new ones that have read this OP.

 

[Eugene]

Dear Brother Mike, it’s good to see you. I’m thankful it’s working for you, and praise God for Christ being preached to them seemingly outside our normal church establishment. I was just thinking how the assembly I attend has separate services for children under certain ages to meet their need. I have listened in and it is a strong Christian message without compromise, but geared to their need. I’m thankful you are in position to discern truth, and God has you and your family benefitting as the result.

I read in:
Php 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
Php 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

church should be the place where believers congregate to honor the Lord. Seekers should be welcome, but the worship service shouldn't be tailored to attract them.

If I'm not mistaken the root word for church means 'called out ones'. Unbelievers are not called out ones until they get saved. Church is for believers, not unbelievers. If a church is dedicated to a single gift then you have a ministry, not a church.

the opening song is almost always secular pop rock.

A big fat no-no. The danger in this is they'll expect other things of the Christian faith to come down to where they're at.

They also don't have hard core adult Bible study. Those that they have are more introductory in nature.

I think the reason this is so is because the vast majority of believers are not hard core Bible.
The answer is to cater a Bible study to both groups through a progressive revelation and depth of study right within any one Bible study. That way no one goes home hungry. And babes in Christ start looking at foods they'd like to taste. Just like how we used to look with interest at mom and dad's coffee.

They say they encourage a deeper dive into scripture in small home groups, and they do heavily promote those.

It's a sad excuse for not running the main meeting the way their supposed to. And usually these extra-curricular meetings lack anointed leadership and structure.

 

[Mike]

Eugene this is personal preference, I believe, but I've always leaned toward children being included in corporate worship. I think it's important that they witness their parents and other adults participate in worship.

Jethro Bodine I can't disagree with anything you've said. I didn't mean to make this a critique on what my church does. I laid all that out to further explain how this church conducts itself in order to attract the unchurched.

I will say we probably wouldn't be here if our previous church wasn't seemingly sapping the life out of our kids' faith walks. Now, I'm not one to believe church should entertain or draw us in. We make this time meaningful by condition of our hearts, IMO. But we reached a point where the table was being set for their adult walks, and I felt I had to make a change if they were going to take faith into their adulthood.

I appreciate your view on the Church as it was modeled for us in the New Testament.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I'm a Baby Christian, but...I think part of the problem is that being Born Again and also Christian in general is often perceived in today's culture as a feeling, as an experience. I'm not a parent, so I don't know how you get your kids to enjoy the faith but also feel at least somewhat challenged to grow, but...my concern would be that the teens would come to think of their faith as something that is feelings- and experience-centered, rather than a developing walk.

I dunno. My experience has been w/ Pentecostals who can be great--fervor, zeal, all that--but...the music, the experiences, the catharsis; it can be a bit...much. Then again, my experiences are quite limited.

Do you think maybe you could just get your kids involved in volunteer work (if they have time) or maybe just throw some challenging, engaging Christian books their way, in addition to church attendance?

I don't know how old you kids are, but I just took a couple Christian-themed classes at Liberty onlline, and the text books were written for freshmen, lol. Anyway, the books dealt w/ Christian Worldviews, which is becoming a big issue as of late...do you think maybe books like that, maybe edu-cational materials, might be somewhat helpful?

 

[Deborah13]

Mike I didn't hear anything that was unBiblical about your church. In fact it may actually be closer to the early church experience.
Is it possible that your pastor has the view that the people themselves need to be like the Bereans and search the scriptures to see if what they are hearing is true. Is it possible that he believes the scripture when it says that the Holy Spirit will lead us into the knowledge of the truth when we sincerely seek for it?
By suggesting that you meet in small study groups he may be suggesting what will make you stronger and less reliant on him and the organized church system.

I sometimes have wondered what would happen to many people in the churches, that rely so much on their church experience, if the church in the US were to be truly persecuted. Could they and would they be capable of forming small groups that could fly under the radar, so to speak? Would they be able to teach their own children like they did in the early church, before there were Sunday school classes?

 

[Brother Mike]

I will say the messages are outstanding! I've often thought if someone was coming to this church as a seeker, the music may seem their speed, but the messages have got to feel hard hitting. They lean on scripture heavily, and there are no soft feel good topics. No rough subject matter is sidestepped. More than any church I've ever attended, they blatantly call out sin and point to Jesus as the way.

Well, my understanding of what gets labeled a "Seeker" church is one that uses modern day marketing tactics, Nice comfortable atmosphere, Music suited to modern day listening (good bye old southern Cross) and attempts to comfort and draw people with environment and marketing tactics.

Lot's of these churches are come as you are, friendly people greet you at the door and smiles abound.

My church for example does not use all possible marketing tactics. In fact, we use none. Brother Keith does not get on facebook or run a blog. We do have an extremely nice array of flowers that are kept everyday, we have the largest movie billboard on the strip than any other show billboard in Branson. We pick up people from their car, and drive them to the front door with many shuttles running during each service. Everything must be perfect, from the bathrooms, to the number of inches the platters are from the edge on the table when we set up communion.

You walk in, you see an amazing auditorium, with Movie camera's 3 large wide screens, real plants on the stage There are blankets draped on the back of the seats in case you get cold.

There is a fine line between doing to the best of your ability for God and Honoring him, and setting everything up, and teaching in a way that you want to draw more people.

Despite how nice everything is Mike. If you preach truth, none of that matters because people will leave, and leave by the hundreds if they don't like what they hear.

Mrs. Moore told the Ladies they need to submit to their husbands, told them a bunch of other things they did not want to hear. We lost over 23 families after that, the women dictated to the men they were not going back.

Brother Moore had a Word from the Lord one night. He said if your involved in Homosexuality or living with someone, You need to stop now. God wants to help, but he needs the place. Some of you says the Lord will not make it, if you don't repent now and get out of that situation. It's wrong, it's sin, get out now, get help.

That chopped the church down considerably. One night.... BAM. I had no idea we had so many that believed different than that about homosexuality. Shocked me.

If they are preaching the truth, let them pave the Parking Lot with real gold. If they are preaching to get the most crowd, then It would be suspect.

 

[Mike]

Deborah13 you make some good points. I'm not sure if this is exactly one of them, but I was thinking as I was reading your post that a church might pull people in with a modern flare with the goal to present the message that they need to hear. If that's the case, than I can appreciate it. As I said, week after week the messages are intense with scripture, and there is not a hint of passivity toward sin and the lukewarm.

I do believe it is the pastor's duty to teach and minister to those who attend. Elders and other leaders do what they can to compel people to come, and the pastor teaches who is there. A pastor doesn't need to teach the Bible study, but it should be made available with some sort of moderating by leaders who have the gift of discernment. As was said earlier, it's almost impossible to ensure solid truth be held when you are fully relying on home groups. I've been in some that were basically social groups, some were gripe sessions, and some were way off target.

 

[Mike]

Christ_empowered I truly appreciate your response, but I really didn't intend this to be an advice thread about our circumstances. That would be good in another discussion, and I'll always accept good advice, but I'd like this to stay focused on seeker churches in general.

To respond to your post in a general way, there is great value in reaching kids outside of weekly worship, but I believe it's important to keep them engaged while they are there. Going to a building, occupying a seat, and tuning everything out is not beneficial. It could lead to the decision not to make church a part of their adult lives.

Brother Mike I agree and disagree with some of your points. It's my opinion that the primary reason we assemble as believers is to honor the Lord and give Him glory. Second to that is to learn and be encouraged. Songs don't need to be traditional hymns, but they should be worshipful. Songs shouldn't be watched and listened to. They should be communally lifted up to God. Technology can be used effectively, but it's counterproductive when it drowns out honest worship.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The church I used to attend a few years ago had an interim pastor for awhile brought in to pump up attendance. He was very insensitive and blunt and basically told the congregation that if you didn't like what he was doing to leave because you'd be a hindrance to the goal of church growth. I got the message loud and clear, lol. That was my first glimpse into the seeker friendly church. He used the following verse as justification for just throwing the doors wide open and drawing people into the church with worldly thrills and frills:

23 "And the master said to the slave, 'Go out into the highways and along the hedges, and compel them to come in, so that my house may be filled." (Luke 14:23 NASB)

I honestly don't think Jesus' intention was to violate the principle Paul taught the churches here:

"14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15 Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? 16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God" (2 Corinthians 6:14-16 NASB)

The justification for allowing just anybody in the church is that they will hear the gospel and get saved. I wish that were true, but what's really going to happen is they will stay just the way they are and ruin your church. A little leaven....

 

[Brother Mike]

Brother Mike I agree and disagree with some of your points. It's my opinion that the primary reason we assemble as believers is to honor the Lord and give Him glory. Second to that is to learn and be encouraged. Songs don't need to be traditional hymns, but they should be worshipful. Songs shouldn't be watched and listened to. They should be communally lifted up to God. Technology can be used effectively, but it's counterproductive when it drowns out honest worship.

I don't know about the praise and worship. I was a big metal fan and not much into praise and worship music. Not enough crunch, to flowery, I do listen to it though when I have to before the teaching starts. Other people have their hands up, along with me but they seem to enjoy it far more. I do like a few Hillsongs, a few.

So, I would not make a good judge on that.

 

[reba]

23 "And the master said to the slave, 'Go out into the highways and along the hedges, and compel them to come in, so that my house may be filled." (Luke 14:23 NASB)

Seems to me the churches should be equipping the members to Go out....
Part of this equipping would be the power we get from worship and fellowship with (almost) like minded folks...

 

[Deborah13]

A pastor doesn't need to teach the Bible study, but it should be made available with some sort of moderating by leaders who have the gift of discernment.

I don't know about the 'gift' of discernment but my thoughts were along the lines of the more mature Christians, Iike yourself, would be able to lead in a home group study. For instance in our Matthew study here, our leader doesn't just rely on his own knowledge but refers to other sources, good commentaries, etc., when he is studying for our group study.
Isa. 6:8 just sayin'.

 

[Mike]

I would say it comes down to this for me. I don't want worship throttled down to levels deemed acceptable or palatable for the seeker. And I don't believe our God wants or deserves that either. Not in worship, anyway. There are plenty of places outside of worship to meet them where they are at.

Some people might say this isn't a compassionate attitude, but I'd ask where we see anything in the New Testament that would lead us to believe they ensemble with people testing the waters. From Acts 2:42 on, right after Pentecost, it was believers coming together, breaking bread in prayer. We are given detailed descriptions of the roles of church leaders and the character they need to possess. I have to believe the importance of this communal time dictates that worship be full on worship.

Deborah13 please believe me. I'm ALL in for home Bible study. We've never not been involved in at least one. But I have a hard time with a church making the decision to rely on them exclusively. Everyone needs to grow in their faith and continue the race. Having Intense study among believers further along in their walks is important no matter how far along they are. I know you know that.

 

[reba]

Totally agree Mike.. It is true compassion that sets boundaries for our children. He is our Father

 

[Mike]

Totally agree Mike.. It is true compassion that sets boundaries for our children. He is our Father

Amen, sister!

 

[stovebolts]

Mike,
I'll come right out and say I don't think I would be comfortable attending the church your currently going to... and I'm not saying there is anything wrong about their style of service. I'm just saying it's not for me.

That being said, I think your family would get much more out of the congregation through small groups... that's where the growth occurs IMO. The sign on the door gets people in and feeling good, but the work is done in small groups in peoples homes. And yes, I believe that's not only biblical, but it's a pattern after the first century church.

 

[Mike]

StoveBolts Hey, buddy! We are involved in small groups for the reasons you gave. The kids are, I'm in a men's group, and we're in a mixed couples small group. Steering back to the general subject, no church is perfect. In my experience, you have to focus on the positive, do your part where it looks like change is needed, and take it upon yourself to fill in the gaps the church isn't meeting. While I can't get on board with the seeker approach, I am witnessing the change in our kids' excitement & interest in their faith walks.

 

[Sparkey]

Greetings Mike
It sure blesses me to see you here. As you know, O child of faith, we are equipped to accomplish what's been given us to do. Especially as we join together in prayerful support, one for the other.

If Jesus wants to draw them who killed the prophets (as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings) how much more so does He desire to draw the redeemed closer and closer to Him? That's what I hear from you as you seek a group to join with and worship Him. It won't be long before what is said is also seen. Can you imagine a time when the heathen know us for the love that they actually see us display? A time when He is seen and where His Glory is seen on earth even as it is in heaven? That's the prayer, right? What He taught. Our Lord's prayer. Well, It's happening. Especially as we become hungry and thirsty for Him.

It's not the same valley of dry bones that it was when we were younger. Some of the bones are standing up. And what is that I see? Ligaments? Bonds of love being applied? Do we see love growing? Hmmmm.... Did I say I was blessed to see you? I love watching what God is doing. There are thorns (some churches have stopped growing) but these are there to protect the rose. The one we follow is the mighty wayMaker. It's good to find a place where we can join and prayers are answered. It's also good to see you again, sir.

In a moment, in a day -a nation born. What is this? They are from completely different cultures but they speak the same things! It is the work and word of God. It is the LORD! God bless you, brother. Look up. Your redeemer draweth nigh.

~Sparrow

(and yes, you who read behind the lines -- all that was just me saying, "I love you.")

 

[Deborah13]

In a moment, in a day -a nation born. What is this? They are from completely different cultures but they speak the same things! It is the work and word of God. It is the LORD! God bless you, brother. Look up. Your redeemer draweth nigh.

I love this whole post. Edifying.