Bible Study Are the words in the Bible "imperfect"?

[reddogs]

People like to say that the Bible is 'inerrant', but who wrote the Bible, think about it. It was written by 'imperfect' men, yes they were inspired, but it was there finger that put it down and not God. As I point out, only the Ten Commandments can be called 'inerrant' as that was written by God with His own finger. The words in the Bible were sufficient for doctrine as the Holy Spirit can guide you into all truth, but the words were not 'perfect' if we seek that because it was in the language of man whether Latin, Greek, or Hebrew, which was not sufficient to give the full meaning of Gods words. The reason is that mans words were 'imperfect' in describing the fullness and completeness of God and His interaction with us, but it was just the means to communicate His purpose from the beginning. The Holy Spirit must bring us to understanding the perfection of inerrancy, for He speaks and shows the words of Christ.

John 16:13-14
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Are the words in the Bible "imperfect"?​

The devil is in the details. Depends on your definition of "the bible".

If you define the Bible as the books that make up the Bible as we know it today as originally written then the Bible is perfect for they were authored by God's inspiration of men and we conjecture that God determined what books went into the Bible as we have it today.

If you define the Bible as the English KJV, AMP, ESV, whatever ... then these versions have minor imperfections. I.E. John 5:4 only found in KJV, NKJV and NASB . Also, converting from the original language to another language is imperfect and the meanings of words in any language changes with time to some degree.

 

[for_his_glory]

No, it's the lack of understanding by others that makes the words in the Bible imperfect as they are not allowing the Holy Spirit teach them.

2Tim 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
2Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Tim 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Are the words in the Bible "imperfect"? Yes, if one is talking about the various English Translations​

Textual Criticism
In 2005, Bart D. Ehrman reported estimates from 200,000 to 400,000 New Testament variants based on 5,700 Greek and 10,000 Latin manuscripts, various other ancient translations, and quotations by the Church Fathers.

There are approximately 180,000 words in the New Testament
The vast majority of variants are of no significance i.e. spelling, etc
There are no doctrinal discrepancies

Interesting variants

• Mark 16:9-20 not found in older manuscripts (story of Mary Magdalene)
• John 5:4 only found in KJV, NKJV and NASB
• John 7:53-8:11 Passage omitted in the critical text. See Jesus and the woman taken in adultery
• Matthew 18:11 MT/TR: For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost. CT: Verse omitted
• Mark 11:26 MT/TR: But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses. CT: Verse omitted (similar verse in Matthew 6:14-15)
• Romans 16:24 MT/TR: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. CT: Verse omitted
• List of major textual variants in the New Testament: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textu...f_major_textual_variants_in_the_New_Testament

 

[WIP]

People like to say that the Bible is 'inerrant', but who wrote the Bible, think about it. It was written by 'imperfect' men, yes they were inspired, but it was there finger that put it down and not God. As I point out, only the Ten Commandments can be called 'inerrant' as that was written by God with His own finger. The words in the Bible were sufficient for doctrine as the Holy Spirit can guide you into all truth, but the words were not 'perfect' if we seek that because it was in the language of man whether Latin, Greek, or Hebrew, which was not sufficient to give the full meaning of Gods words. The reason is that mans words were 'imperfect' in describing the fullness and completeness of God and His interaction with us, but it was just the means to communicate His purpose from the beginning. The Holy Spirit must bring us to understanding the perfection of inerrancy, for He speaks and shows the words of Christ.

John 16:13-14
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [c]instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 NKJV

I'll tell you what I've told others. If you can't believe certain parts then how can you believe the rest? God's word is not subjective. We either believe it all or none.

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Think about it like this reddogs. if you sat down to write, pen in hand, and I grabbed your hand, and wrote on the paper what I wanted to say. You can say you wrote the words because you did. But I can say I wrote the words because I did. It is my handwriting. But your hand did the writing.

2 Peter 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

So that's what we mean. The prophets, apostles, and Luke wrote as the Holy Spirit moved them.

If you know of an error, I would like to hear it. I know of just one age difference error in the KJV. It has been corrected in the more modern versions.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[reddogs]

Hey All,
Think about it like this reddogs. if you sat down to write, pen in hand, and I grabbed your hand, and wrote on the paper what I wanted to say. You can say you wrote the words because you did. But I can say I wrote the words because I did. It is my handwriting. But your hand did the writing.

2 Peter 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

So that's what we mean. The prophets, apostles, and Luke wrote as the Holy Spirit moved them.

If you know of an error, I would like to hear it. I know of just one age difference error in the KJV. It has been corrected in the more modern versions.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

The thing is God doesnt work that way, He tells man like with Moses or gives vision like John or asks questions like with Abraham, and they interact with God or His angels and we get the results, which man puts down. So its not God writting it like the Ten Commandments, its a conduit, who are the prophets, from God and in the language of man at the time. Thus the issues with translation and issues with having to go to the original Hebrew or Greek, etc...

Take for instance the text from Daniel 7..

Daniel 7 King James Version​

1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.
2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

As you can see it says, 'Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.' So Daniel had to write the dream afterwards and give the 'sum' or the context as he understood 'the matters'. And some of it obviously he could not make heads or tails of, so just wrote what he saw...

 

[Josef]

The thing is God doesnt work that way, He tells man like with Moses or gives vision like John or asks questions like with Abraham, and they interact with God or His angels and we get the results, which man puts down. So its not God writting it like the Ten Commandments, its a conduit, who are the prophets, from God and in the language of man at the time. Thus the issues with translation and issues with having to go to the original Hebrew or Greek, etc...

Take for instance the text from Daniel 7..

Daniel 7 King James Version​

1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.
2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

As you can see it says, 'Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.' So Daniel had to write the dream afterwards and give the 'sum' or the context as he understood 'the matters'. And some of it obviously he could not make heads or tails of, so just wrote what he saw...

Hey All,
Who can say they are the expert on how God acts? I understand Daniel dreamed his prophecy and wrote what he saw.
I also believe Peter when he says the Holy Spirit guided, or moved them.
David prophesied through Psalms.
Solomon through proverbs.
Jonah was the reluctant prophet.
John was in the spirit on the Lord's Day.
There are many ways to prophesize.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Who Me]

The bible teaches us about God, how to be saved and how to serve him.
Yes there are copying errors etc butchered are no errors in 5he vital theological bits that teach us about God, salvation and serving him.

So what is your problem?

 

[reddogs]

Hey All,
Who can say they are the expert on how God acts? I understand Daniel dreamed his prophecy and wrote what he saw.
I also believe Peter when he says the Holy Spirit guided, or moved them.
David prophesied through Psalms.
Solomon through proverbs.
Jonah was the reluctant prophet.
John was in the spirit on the Lord's Day.
There are many ways to prophesize.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

And they were all imperfect men.....

 

[Fastfredy0]

Inspiration, verbal plenary​

An Introductory Study of Systematic Theology by Stanford E. Murrell

The historic doctrine of the Church is that the Scriptures assert a plenary and verbal inspiration.

Plenary inspiration means that the Bible is inspired in all its parts in the original autographs. Christ never distinguishes between the books of the Bible as to their divine origin and authenticity, but applies the term, "Word of God," to the whole canon of the Old Testament. The Apostles do the same (2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness).

Verbal inspiration means that in the making of the Scriptures the guidance of the Holy Spirit extended to the precise words that were used and not merely to the thoughts or concepts. The Scriptures constantly claim that their words were given or directed by the Holy Spirit.

• Deuteronomy 4:2, 5; 1 Samuel 23:2; Isaiah 1:10; Jeremiah 1:2, 9; Ezekiel 3:1, 4; Joel 1:1; Amos 1:3, 3:1; Obadiah 1:1; Micah 1:1; Luke 1:70; Hebrews 1:1; 1 Peter 1:11, 1 Peter 1:21
• 2 Samuel 23:2 “The Spirit of the Lord spoke by me, And His word was on my tongue.
• Matthew 5:18 Of the Bible, Jesus said, "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
• John 10:35 The Lord also affirmed that, "The Scriptures cannot be broken."
• Acts 4:25 who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David, Your servant, said, ‘Why did the nations (Gentiles) become arrogant and rage, And the peoples devise futile things [against the Lord]?
• 1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the [Holy] Spirit who is from God, so that we may know and understand the [wonderful] things freely given to us by God. 13 We also speak of these things, not in words taught or supplied by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual thoughts with spiritual words [for those being guided by the Holy Spirit].
• 1 Corinthians 14:37 "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord."
• 2 Corinthians 5:18 But all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ [making us acceptable to Him] and gave us the ministry of reconciliation [so that by our example we might bring others to Him],
• 2 Peter 1:20 But understand this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of or comes from one’s own [personal or special] interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
• 2 Peter 3:16 "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Inerrancy does not mean that a wrong interpretation could not be put on the text. Inerrancy does not deny the flexibility of language as a vehicle of communication. What inerrancy does mean is that truth is conveyed in words which, understood as they were meant to be understood, express no error in the original autographs.

Technically, authenticity and inerrancy is a doctrine that applies only to the original manuscripts) in Hebrew and Greek.

 

[reddogs]

Inspiration, verbal plenary​

An Introductory Study of Systematic Theology by Stanford E. Murrell

The historic doctrine of the Church is that the Scriptures assert a plenary and verbal inspiration.

Plenary inspiration means that the Bible is inspired in all its parts in the original autographs. Christ never distinguishes between the books of the Bible as to their divine origin and authenticity, but applies the term, "Word of God," to the whole canon of the Old Testament. The Apostles do the same (2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness).

Verbal inspiration means that in the making of the Scriptures the guidance of the Holy Spirit extended to the precise words that were used and not merely to the thoughts or concepts. The Scriptures constantly claim that their words were given or directed by the Holy Spirit.

• Deuteronomy 4:2, 5; 1 Samuel 23:2; Isaiah 1:10; Jeremiah 1:2, 9; Ezekiel 3:1, 4; Joel 1:1; Amos 1:3, 3:1; Obadiah 1:1; Micah 1:1; Luke 1:70; Hebrews 1:1; 1 Peter 1:11, 1 Peter 1:21
• 2 Samuel 23:2 “The Spirit of the Lord spoke by me, And His word was on my tongue.
• Matthew 5:18 Of the Bible, Jesus said, "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
• John 10:35 The Lord also affirmed that, "The Scriptures cannot be broken."
• Acts 4:25 who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David, Your servant, said, ‘Why did the nations (Gentiles) become arrogant and rage, And the peoples devise futile things [against the Lord]?
• 1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the [Holy] Spirit who is from God, so that we may know and understand the [wonderful] things freely given to us by God. 13 We also speak of these things, not in words taught or supplied by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual thoughts with spiritual words [for those being guided by the Holy Spirit].
• 1 Corinthians 14:37 "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord."
• 2 Corinthians 5:18 But all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ [making us acceptable to Him] and gave us the ministry of reconciliation [so that by our example we might bring others to Him],
• 2 Peter 1:20 But understand this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of or comes from one’s own [personal or special] interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
• 2 Peter 3:16 "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Inerrancy does not mean that a wrong interpretation could not be put on the text. Inerrancy does not deny the flexibility of language as a vehicle of communication. What inerrancy does mean is that truth is conveyed in words which, understood as they were meant to be understood, express no error in the original autographs.

Technically, authenticity and inerrancy is a doctrine that applies only to the original manuscripts) in Hebrew and Greek.

Amen, thats why the Jews considered every word to be unchangeable as they meant what God intended. Unfortunately today almost all of the modern versions have come from the 'changed' Alexandrian codices which has allowed corruption into these texts...