Are we al immortal?

[XTruth]

Note from Admin: the following posts were split from another thread.

Jesus had appeared to His disciples. Verse 37 says that the 10 thought they were seeing a spirit. Jesus told them to look at His hands and feet, handle Him, see Me and know that it is Me in the flesh. If it were just a spirit, or just His spirit, then He would not be flesh and bone. This was after Jesus had died. He was resurrected...He was in His resurrected (firstfruits) body. This body had His spirit and soul in it, just as your body does.

I'm sorry I don't believe in the pagan notion of the "duality" of man.

Please explain your little correction.

Jesus appeared in His glorified body not as a spirit.

[quote:3vv91clk]Was this a mere resurrection of the dead like Lazarus, or was Jesus in His eternal body?

He was in His glorified body, the one He ascended to heaven in.

Did He not walk through the wall in this body?

Yes.

If this was not the resurrected body of Christ that is the first fruits of all the glorified saints in the soon coming future, then when did Jesus receive this body in Scripture?

He received this glorified body at His resurrection.[/quote:3vv91clk]

Oh...so you're just really confused. You just don't believe the spirit and soul exist forever with the body that becomes immortal, instead of mortal. You think the spirit and soul die or something. Thanks, that makes total sense (2 Tim.3:7).

 

[RND]

Is everyone immortal?

Oh...so you're just really confused.

No. not at all. Satan wasn't right. Genesis 3:4.

You just don't believe the spirit and soul exist forever with the body that becomes immortal,

Depends on who gets to be immortal.

You think the spirit and soul die or something.

I think there is no such thing as Hellenistic "dualism."

Thanks, that makes total sense (2 Tim.3:7).

2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Can you show me any verses where man is immortal?

 

[XTruth]

Re: Rapture Survey for CFnetians

Oh...so you're just really confused.

No. not at all. Satan wasn't right. Genesis 3:4.

You just don't believe the spirit and soul exist forever with the body that becomes immortal,

Depends on who gets to be immortal.

[quote:13i3tusf]You think the spirit and soul die or something.

I think there is no such thing as Hellenistic "dualism."

Thanks, that makes total sense (2 Tim.3:7).

2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Can you show me any verses where man is immortal?[/quote:13i3tusf]


Genesis 2:17
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
They did die the very day they ate from the tree of knowledge; even the very moment their mouths sunk into the fruit of that tree. Disobedience to God separates us from life and pulls us into death. There is no middle ground between spiritual death and life; no shade in God’s light and the sinful darkness; nor a single shade of gray in God’s white brilliance of righteousness. Straddling the fence is a man-made concept having no part in the predestined plan of God set in motion from the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4-5) which leads unto eternal life. If both your feet aren’t on the narrow path and moving toward the small gate, then you aren’t on your way to God (Mat.7:13-14) no matter what you believe or whom you believe in. Adam and Eve never stopped believing in God; neither did Lucifer or the fallen angels (Jas.2:19) that joined his rebellion. One act of disobedience is all it takes to be separated from God and have the damnation of the eternal death penalty hanging over your head like a guillotine just waiting for your time to run out so it can slice into you with no mercy or respect of who you were in life.
Even though Adam and Eve didn’t physically die at that moment, they did die spiritually. God didn’t lie and this was not the first act of mercy as many have misunderstood it to be. Sin has the penalty of an eternal death sentence that must be carried out by a just God in the day of any person’s physical death if that sin has been left unconfessed. Sins cannot be forgiven that haven’t happened yet (Rom.3:25). Therefore, the belief that the blood of Jesus has washed away future sin before they’ve happened has no biblical support.
The wages of sin is death (Rom.6:23). A wage is what you receive or what you are owed. What you are owed for sin is eternal death. If it were physical death then the world would not have been populated due to Adam and Eve dropping dead before they had a chance to reproduce. If God meant eventual physical death due to the penalty of sin, regardless of the curse sin being brought to life, then it would be unjust for one who was made righteous by God to go through the physical death process since his sins had been washed away and the man had been justified. The righteous would never physically die. As said and shown in the Old and in the New Testaments, sin brings the death penalty which damns the soul until man meets God’s conditions of redemption.
Here’s one last fact to chew on for people who believe you can’t be condemned by sin once God has made you righteous. Adam and Eve were both made righteous from their origin and had more a claim to be kept in God’s righteousness by a nonexistent hyper-grace than we have today. They were perfect from the beginning; before their single acts of disobedience; and grace did exist during the period of the Old Testament as specifically referenced 38 times from Genesis to Zechariah with the specific first reference being Genesis 6:8. They didn’t have the fullness of grace as in John 1:17 and in 1 Peter 1:10-12, but God has never changed and has always had unmeasured grace for His people (Mal.3:6; Heb.13:8; Jas.1:17).

Genesis 3:4
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
This is the first instance in man’s career that God’s words are being contradicted to us in the constant attempt to sway each saved person into err, and into the state of unrighteousness, so we might share the same fate as the devil (Rev.20:7-15). By the example of Adam and Eve, we’ve learned that death can come to man in three different forms; spiritual, physical, and eternal (not written in this post, but I will copy/paste that example if you want it ). You’ve previously learned from Genesis 2:17 that the woman did indeed die after eating the forbidden fruit. Remember what you’ve learned already so that the simplicity of the Bible will come alive like never before. We need theologians to explain straightforward messages in order to shape them to fit fallible preconceived notions. When you accept the simplicity of the gospel that says sin condemns without respect of persons, just as Jesus saves without respect of persons, then you’ll quickly become the Bible scholar.


All are immortal, the damned and the saved, the sinner and the saint, in that all will exist forever somewhere (Lake of fire (Isa.66:22-24; Heb.6:2-"eternal destruction"; Rev.20:11-15; 21:8; 22:11) or earth (Mat.5:8; Rev.20:4-6; 22:11)). Just do a word search for the word eternal...look up the definition if needed and where its found through the Bible and in context and to which two classes of people. Yes, all are immortal from both classes of men (eternally saved and eternally condemned).

Here is one verse reference that proves immortality of the righteous. You'll find others by looking up the reference verses from previous paragraph or by looking up the word "eternal" in a concordance. I also have more verses if you need help.
Rom.2:7-- "To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:"
1 Cor.15:53-54-- "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."
2 Tim.1:10-- "But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel"

 

[RND]

Re: Rapture Survey for CFnetians

All are immortal, the damned and the saved, the sinner and the saint, in that all will exist forever somewhere....

Then Satan was right. "You shall not surely die."

That makes immortal life "inherent" and not a gift. Unconditional life.

 

[XTruth]

Re: Rapture Survey for CFnetians

All are immortal, the damned and the saved, the sinner and the saint, in that all will exist forever somewhere....

Then Satan was right. "You shall not surely die."

That makes immortal life "inherent" and not a gift. Unconditional life.

You'll have to excuse me in the future if I don't respond back to a post like this. I have a real problem with justifying my time when it is obvious the one directing their post to me hasn't read the long reply to them that already answered the repeated question in detail. OK?

Adam and Eve did die that day. There are 3 deaths and life meanings in Scripture...spiritual, physical, and eternal...they died spiritually, though they were alive physically and their spirit still existed. iT IS LIKE ANYONE WHO IS LOST BECAUSE OF THE DEATH PENALTY OF SIN. That's why we need to be born again. It is to be spiritually born again. Can't do something again that hasn't been done at least once before.

Adam and Eve's salvation was a gift. The whole world was in the loins of Adam when he was righteous. Sin passes from man, not woman, thus how Jesus could be born without the penalty of sin like everyone else (Ps.51:5; Rom.5:12-21). If Adam did not sin, then his kids would have been born without sin...inherent, a gift from the beginning that wasn't rejected and passed on through future generations...you can define that yourself. But Adam received the death penalty (spiritual) for sin (just like Rom.6:23 says the wages of sin is death, all of us have sinned, yet all die physically, what kind of death is being spoken of?) Thus, condemnation was inherent, or passed on from man to man (Rom.5:12-21).


If reading doesn't scare you, then learn from the Bible what the answer to your question is. Read my previous post too Spiritual death is separation of man from God due to sin. When one is spiritually dead, they can be alive physically (Mat.8:22; Col.2:14; 1 Tim.5:6), or he can be dead physically and alive in hell; conscious in the soul and spirit or the inner man. The resurrection of a man from spiritual death, or separation from God, takes place when one is saved from death in trespasses and sins (Eph.2:1-10), when he is born again (Jn.3:1-8), is made a new creature in Christ (2 Cor.5:17-18), and is fully reconciled to God through Christ (Eph.2:12-16; Col.1:20-22; 2:6-13; 2 Cor.5:14-21).
This is because we are always owed separation from God, or death, for sin; every sin, ever time (Gen.2:17; Ex.32:33; Eze.3:17-21; 18:24;33:12-13; Mat.15:10-20; Jn.8:51; Rom.1:29-32; 6:23; 1 Cor.3:16-17; 6:9-10, 19-20; Gal.5:19-21; 6:7-8; Eph.5:3-5; Col.3:5-10; Rv.21:8). The penalty for sin is eternal separation from God, or eternal death in hell. Had it been physical death, every man would automatically be justified in the sight of God when he physically died. With the penalty thus paid, God could not punish the sinner any further than physical death. Such death would be the means of justification. This cannot be the case. All will die physically, save the Rapture saints, but some will be lost (Rev.20:11-15) while others will be saved (Rev.21:1-7). So, the death meant for sin could not possibly mean a physical one (Gen.2:17; Rom.6:23).
Neither could it mean a spiritual death, which is the state of man in sin. If so, then all who commit sin would automatically be justified in the sight of God. This would make committing sin the penalty for committing sin, which is absurd. It would mean that all who commit sin would be saved and inherit eternal life. This would guarantee eternal life for all men, for all have sinned (1 Ki.8:46; Rom.3:23). It would make the salvation of souls unnecessary, as well as the death of Christ, for all men had sinned before He appeared as man.
The real penalty for sin is eternal death, by separation from God in the lake of fire, which is never quenched (Isa.66:22-24). This is the true meaning for death as used for the penalty of sin, not a physical or spiritual death. Physical death is the result of spiritual and eternal death, and eternal death is the penalty for spiritual death, or disobeying God. Therefore, Genesis 2:17 and Genesis 3:4 should make more sense to you now; knowing that the death spoken of was a spiritual one leading to eternal damnation if they did not repent, being born spiritually, again.

 

[RND]

Re: Rapture Survey for CFnetians

If reading doesn't scare you, then learn from the Bible what the answer to your question is. Read my previous post too

Is the Love of God and loving God based on scaring people? Fear?

 

[XTruth]

Re: Rapture Survey for CFnetians

If reading doesn't scare you, then learn from the Bible what the answer to your question is. Read my previous post too

Is the Love of God and loving God based on scaring people? Fear?

I'm not sure what this has to do with the subject we were told to get back to if we wanted to keep posting here. I am only sure that you don't like me. But to answer your misplaced question, I do believe that man is commanded to fear God many more times over than the love of God is even talked about. If you have a problem with me, then PM me or debate me, or whatever makes you feel better...leave the subjects intact.

 

[RND]

Re: Rapture Survey for CFnetians

I'm not sure what this has to do with the subject we were told to get back to if we wanted to keep posting here. I am only sure that you don't like me.

You have no idea what I think about you.

But to answer your misplaced question, I do believe that man is commanded to fear God many more times over than the love of God is even talked about. If you have a problem with me, then PM me or debate me, or whatever makes you feel better...leave the subjects intact.

Fear = respect, honor. Perfect love cast out all fear. If we are afraid of God we've missed the meaning of reconciliation.

 

[XTruth]

Re: Rapture Survey for CFnetians

I'm not sure what this has to do with the subject we were told to get back to if we wanted to keep posting here. I am only sure that you don't like me.

You have no idea what I think about you.

But to answer your misplaced question, I do believe that man is commanded to fear God many more times over than the love of God is even talked about. If you have a problem with me, then PM me or debate me, or whatever makes you feel better...leave the subjects intact.

Fear = respect, honor. Perfect love cast out all fear. If we are afraid of God we've missed the meaning of reconciliation.

The issue isn't even what you think of me. Hey, how bout we use this thread to debate and hi-jack the Rapture thread

Should I really have to show you all the times throughout both teataments that God's people(Jews and Gentiles) are told to fear God? Your definition is correct for a few, but mostly, we are to fear God in view of His judgment He must execute upon all sinners, whether one has ever been reconciled or not. God must judge without respecter of person. How bout a quicky? Read 1 Pt.1:13-17. You must be completely blind to all the warnings to the righteous from Genesis through Revelation. You must believe the once made righteous by the removal of all past sins, always righteous even if doing unrighteousness. We fear God and keep His commandments in view of how He must judge in fairness and righteousness.

Show me in Scripture how this is wrong

 

[RND]

Re: Rapture Survey for CFnetians

The issue isn't even what you think of me. Hey, how bout we use this thread to debate and hi-jack the Rapture thread

Then why would you presuppose what I think of you?

Should I really have to show you all the times throughout both teataments that God's people(Jews and Gentiles) are told to fear God? Your definition is correct for a few, but mostly, we are to fear God in view of His judgment He must execute upon all sinners, whether one has ever been reconciled or not.

Fear = Respect, honor.

God must judge without respecter of person. How bout a quicky? Read 1 Pt.1:13-17. You must be completely blind to all the warnings to the righteous from Genesis through Revelation. You must believe the once made righteous by the removal of all past sins, always righteous even if doing unrighteousness. We fear God and keep His commandments in view of how He must judge in fairness and righteousness.

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

I see nothing hear that says "love me or I'll kill you." Tell me, if you wouldn't do that why do you think God does?

Since you keep all of God's commandments do you keep the sabbath on Saturday like our Jewish friend does and I do? Do you eat pork?

Show me in Scripture how this is wrong

See John 4 and John 8. God "heals" He doesn't kill.

 

[XTruth]

Re: Rapture Survey for CFnetians

The issue isn't even what you think of me. Hey, how bout we use this thread to debate and hi-jack the Rapture thread

Then why would you presuppose what I think of you?

I was just noting that it's clear you don't like me...I'm not an idiot, I know when someone on a forum doesn't like me when they start commenting after my posts in opposition when their response may have been appropriate for another thread...like you did a few posts back...had nothing to do with my last post from this thread, b/c it was still left over hostility over telling a person what Scripture says who is lost b/c they don't accept Christ. Thought I wouldn't get ragged or dogged for that in a Christian forum, but I am really not easily surprised by what professing Christians do, say, and justify anymore.

[quote:3ooglph4][quote:3ooglph4]Should I really have to show you all the times throughout both teataments that God's people(Jews and Gentiles) are told to fear God? Your definition is correct for a few, but mostly, we are to fear God in view of His judgment He must execute upon all sinners, whether one has ever been reconciled or not.

Fear = Respect, honor.[/quote:3ooglph4]

Can you show me the Hebrew and Greek word you are defining. In other words, find fear in the Bible when it is being used to command God's people to fear Him, then look it up in a concordance to give me the Hebrew/Greek word with the entire definition...I'm sure you have access to a concordance.

[quote:3ooglph4]God must judge without respecter of person. How bout a quicky? Read 1 Pt.1:13-17. You must be completely blind to all the warnings to the righteous from Genesis through Revelation. You must believe the once made righteous by the removal of all past sins, always righteous even if doing unrighteousness. We fear God and keep His commandments in view of how He must judge in fairness and righteousness.

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

I see nothing hear that says "love me or I'll kill you." Tell me, if you wouldn't do that why do you think God does?[/quote:3ooglph4]

Actually, the very standard God and Jesus use to see if man loves Him is by the keeping of the commandments (Jn.14:15-23; 15:14; 1 Jn.5:1-4, 18). My sinning, it is the individual that kills himself. They die spiritually. If they physically die in their state of spiritual death, then they die eternally. God gives every opportunity possible to save us, but He must inforce the law of righteousness and sin and death, lest He be a sinner and guilty Himself (Jas.2:9-10). But I can easily show you how God has physically killed those who haven't kept His commandments for examples of His judgment, from both testaments.

Since you keep all of God's commandments do you keep the sabbath on Saturday like our Jewish friend does and I do? Do you eat pork?

I don't keep the Sabbath and I love pork. The Mosaic Law was only given to Jews. The Mosaic Law was also done away with. To keep one aspect of the Law of Moses, I'd have to keep it all in order to be justified. Keeping the Law of Moses also cancels grace. You, my friend, are in danger of the judgment and need to get the facts straight so you can repent and be saved. Read Galatians. The problem and confusion you hold is not understanding that all the commands from the Mosaic Covenant were abolished...the commandments spoken of in the New Testament re-establish most Old Testament commands and even do away with others...such as the Sabbath and your obsession about who does and does not eat pork.

[quote:3ooglph4]Show me in Scripture how this is wrong

See John 4 and John 8. God "heals" He doesn't kill.[/quote:3ooglph4][/quote:3ooglph4]

John 4- great chapter, you are right, but their are about 260 chapters in the New Testament. You pick one that is not necessarily about judgment. I can give you dozens right now that say He does judge...and healing is only one aspect of God that won't be an option for most throughout eternity.

God actually does kill. He brought you in, He can take you out. Funny you use this chapter (referring to the einstein thread about nailing the laws to the cross, and how I shouldn't be so rude and evil to a Jew by telling Him of Jesus ...and using Scripture to do it :o ), this chapter actually is mostly Jesus speaking to Jews who won't accept Him. John 8:33-38--- Jesus refutes Jewish claim of being children of freedom. John 8:39-40----Jesus refutes Jewish claim of being children of Abraham. John 8:41-47--- Jesus refutes Jewish claim of being children of God.
John 8:11- Would the woman be going to heaven or hell if she disobeyed the command to sin no more?
John 8:21, 24- B/c of sin, they will die...this isn't the physical death, for all die this way, but it is eternal death.
John.8:31- If you continue in His word, then you are His disciple...this is a condition of obedience. If they don't remain in Christ (by disobedience), then they will not remain His and will join the rest in the second death... this is God's judgment...it is not healing...it is worse than killing once...it is eternally being destroyed.
John 8:34- Whosoever (meaning every and anyone...like Jn.3:16) commits sin, is a servant of sin...which brings forth death (Eze.18:4; Rom.6:23; Jas.1:15).
John 8:51- Jesus says that no one will see death if they keep His sayings. Jesus does heal, but only in the time alotted for each person 's life. The death He speaks of is eternal, since quite a few righteous people have physically died in the last 2,000 years. Who is it that cast into hell, God or Satan? Whose responsible for their eternal destination?

 

[RND]

Re: Rapture Survey for CFnetians

God actually does kill.

Who did Jesus kill?

 

[XTruth]

Re: Rapture Survey for CFnetians

God actually does kill.

Who did Jesus kill?

I have no idea where you're going with this, but I'll play your game.

Isaiah 11
1And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

2And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

3And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

4But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

Revelation 2:16:

16Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.


Revelation 19:11-21:
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.



Yeah, Jesus will kill. No, He did not come to condemn the first time (Jn.3:17), He came to deal with sin (Heb.9:28). But.... John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God.

I can certainly show you how God the Father has already killed, even those who had been righteous once. So your turn, What's this have to do with a thing???????

 

[RND]

Re: Rapture Survey for CFnetians

I have no idea where you're going with this, but I'll play your game.

Great! Can you point out anywhere in the Gospel where Jesus killed anyone?

 

[XTruth]

Re: Rapture Survey for CFnetians

I have no idea where you're going with this, but I'll play your game.

Great! Can you point out anywhere in the Gospel where Jesus killed anyone?

Of course not, again, I don't even know where this is coming from, but can you please telling me where this is going?

 

[RND]

Re: Rapture Survey for CFnetians

I have no idea where you're going with this, but I'll play your game.

Great! Can you point out anywhere in the Gospel where Jesus killed anyone?

Of course not, again, I don't even know where this is coming from, but can you please telling me where this is going?

My point is simply this. We are in a different era where God has revealed Himself and His character through the life of His Son, Jesus Christ. While at one time it can be said "God killed" that cannot be said any more. God does not kill. Therefore death is not something that God does to people. That is something that Satan is responsible for.

Hbr 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil.

The devil has the power of death. Jesus has the "keys" to eternal life. So to suggest that man is "immortal" without the "keys" to life held by Jesus is error.

Man is not "immortal" without Christ (Romans 6:23). Hence the lie of Genesis 3:4. It was God that said, "you will die." But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die." It was Satan that promised eternal life without God. Eternal life is a "gift" not inherent. In other words eternal life is "conditional."

Champions of Conditional Immortality in History



If man is immortal without God then Satan was right.

"Sin hides from our view that matchless charms of Jesus; prejudice, selfishness, self-righteousness, and passion blind our eyes, so that we do not discern the Saviour. Oh, if we would by faith draw nigh to God, He would reveal to us His glory, which is His character, and the praise of God would flow forth from human hearts and be sounded by human voices."

 

[RND]

An outstanding sermon and teaching by Greg Boyd.

Tormented by the Flames

 

[XTruth]

Re: Rapture Survey for CFnetians

Rnd said:
My point is simply this. We are in a different era where God has revealed Himself and His character through the life of His Son, Jesus Christ. While at one time it can be said "God killed" that cannot be said any more. God does not kill. Therefore death is not something that God does to people. That is something that Satan is responsible for.

Hbr 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil.

The devil has the power of death. Jesus has the "keys" to eternal life. So to suggest that man is "immortal" without the "keys" to life held by Jesus is error.

Man is not "immortal" without Christ (Romans 6:23). Hence the lie of Genesis 3:4. It was God that said, "you will die." But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die." It was Satan that promised eternal life without God. Eternal life is a "gift" not inherent. In other words eternal life is "conditional."

"My point is simply this. We are in a different era where God has revealed Himself and His character through the life of His Son, Jesus Christ. While at one time it can be said "God killed" that cannot be said any more. God does not kill. Therefore death is not something that God does to people. That is something that Satan is responsible for."
Ya know, that's all at least intelligent, it just lacks a little understanding. God is unchanging in both the New and Old Testaments (Mal.3:6; Jas.1:17). He is w/o respecter of person in judgments for all ages (2 Sam.14:14; 2 Chr.19:7; Acts 10:34; Rom.2:11; Eph.6:9; Col.3:25; 1 Tim.5:21; 1 Pt.1:17; Jas.2:1, 3, 9). So I guess I'm going to need some kind of biblical evidence for that.

"Hbr 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil."
Seeing that those whom He respresents are flesh and blood, it was necessary for Him also to become flesh and blood that He might be capable of dying in their place, by this act destroying Satan and annulling his power of death over mankind that is owed everyone who has unrepented sin (Rom.6:23)....so, not sure what ya mean by this verse.

"The devil has the power of death. Jesus has the "keys" to eternal life. So to suggest that man is "immortal" without the "keys" to life held by Jesus is error."
Man's rebelling against God's authority (sin), is what gives Satan claim on man's soul, for all who follow his lead are his children, for he was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, b/c there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it (Jn.8:44; 1 Jn.3:8-10). Agreed, Jesus does have the keys to eternal life, He is the true God, and eternal life (1 Jn.5:20). All are immortal in the sense that all will exist forever. The reason the lost are said to be apart of the second death after the White Throne Judgment (Rev.20:11-15), is b/c they exist apart from God's abiding life, not that they aren't really existing forever...they do. The continually die, but at the same time are living forever, in the sense only that they exist. We may be splitting hairs...not sure, but in the sense that everyone who has ever lived will continually exist forever, whether saved or damned, all are immortal in that sense. As far as life only coming from Jesus, I agree (Jn.1:1-3). In the sense that the lost are forever parted from God's abiding life, I agree, but they don't become extinct. So maybe it is just splitting hairs. Do you believe in soul sleeping???

"Man is not "immortal" without Christ (Romans 6:23). Hence the lie of Genesis 3:4. It was God that said, "you will die." But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die." It was Satan that promised eternal life without God. Eternal life is a "gift" not inherent. In other words eternal life is "conditional." "
Gen.2:17 is correct. God did not lie. They did die. It was the spiritual death that came from sin (Rom.6:23). The serpent merely deceived. The thought of Eve was that she would die physically, this is still what many teach...they teach this as God's first act of mercy. They don't realize that Adam and Eve did die that day. Eternal life is a gift. Adam and Eve had that gift by being created w/o sin. If they had not sinned, then their children would have been born with that gift by inheriting it from the father, just as they inherited his sin when he rebelled (Rom.5:12-21). That's why I told you in a previous post that you could've called salvation a gift or inherited if Adam had not sinned. But, yes, salvation is a gift b/c we were born in sin (Ps.51:5; Rom.5:12-21). And I couldn't agree with you more about salvation being conditional...you must also believe that the doctrine of eternal security is a lie.

So are you still looking for a reason to argue, or do you understand?

 

[RND]

Re: Rapture Survey for CFnetians

It was the spiritual death that came from sin (Rom.6:23).

So, then Satan was telling the truth! Adam and Eve had a "dual" nature (as we all do I suppose) and that "inner man" lives forever?

"You shall not surely die."

 

[XTruth]

Re: Rapture Survey for CFnetians

It was the spiritual death that came from sin (Rom.6:23).

So, then Satan was telling the truth! Adam and Eve had a "dual" nature (as we all do I suppose) and that "inner man" lives forever?

"You shall not surely die."

What in the world do you think you're accomplishing? You act like you just won a point. AGAIN, there are 3 deaths; eternal, spiritual, and physical. Satan was telling the truth to Jesus when he tempted Him, in that his Scriptures were correct. He was lying in the sense that he was being deceptive, you know, trying to win a victory by trying to be cunning...much like you. Satan tells no truth, only lies, there is no truth in him (Jn.8:44). Satan used the serpent as his agent in order to deceive Eve. They did die spiritually, they did not die physically at that time. If they were righteously restored at the time of their physical deaths, then they did not die eternally. Who knows? They weren't listed with the faithful in Heb.11, but that doesn't mean they weren't.

Not knowing what to answer since I have no idea what you are doing....nice argument by the way. Yes, we have an inner man. Yes, the inner man lives forever, whether saved or not, it exist. It is not alive in the sense that it is w/o the abiding life of God, for the lost, but it exist, so in that sense as we know it, all inner men exist and live forever. Not just the inner man though, all spirit/souls of man will eventually be resurrected with the physical body and be joined body spirit soul forever, by either the first or the second resurrection. Yes, all are immortal forever in the sense that all will exist forever somewhere.

Unless you get to some kind of real point that I haven't already replied to (with patients I might add), then this conversation is over.