Are we al immortal?

[RND]

Re: Rapture Survey for CFnetians

AGAIN, there are 3 deaths; eternal, spiritual, and physical.

Then that means man has a "triality" nature? Man doesn't have a soul and is a soul.

Satan was telling the truth to Jesus when he tempted Him, in that his Scriptures were correct. He was lying in the sense that he was being deceptive, you know, trying to win a victory by trying to be cunning...much like you.

Brother, I think you been asked by the mods here to leave personal attacks alone. No need to equate me with being cunning like Satan. That's unproductive.

Satan tells no truth, only lies, there is no truth in him (Jn.8:44). Satan used the serpent as his agent in order to deceive Eve. They did die spiritually, they did not die physically at that time. If they were righteously restored at the time of their physical deaths, then they did not die eternally. Who knows? They weren't listed with the faithful in Heb.11, but that doesn't mean they weren't.

Adam lived to be 930 years. A day to the Lord is like a thousand years (2 Pe 3:8). So indeed Adam died that day.

Not knowing what to answer since I have no idea what you are doing....nice argument by the way. Yes, we have an inner man. Yes, the inner man lives forever, whether saved or not, it exist. It is not alive in the sense that it is w/o the abiding life of God, for the lost, but it exist, so in that sense as we know it, all inner men exist and live forever.

So again, Satan was right. The "inner man" lives forever. But the Bible says "eternal life" is a gift. Is burning in hell forever a "gift?"

Not just the inner man though, all spirit/souls of man will eventually be resurrected with the physical body and be joined body spirit soul forever, by either the first or the second resurrection. Yes, all are immortal forever in the sense that all will exist forever somewhere.

Again, Satan was right. Yet, man is always described as being "mortal" not "immortal."

Unless you get to some kind of real point that I haven't already replied to (with patients I might add), then this conversation is over.

The point I made was fairly clear and fairly simple. Man is not "immortal" without God. Eternal life is a gift. Roasting, toasting and fricasseeing in hell forever is not a "gift."

BTW, maybe you'd be kind enough to comment on Job 14:10-15.

Job 14:10 But man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more. 11 As water disappears from the sea or a riverbed becomes parched and dry, 12 so man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, men will not awake or be roused from their sleep. 13 "If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me! 14 If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait for my renewal to come. 15 You will call and I will answer you; you will long for the creature your hands have made.

This is the perfect picture of the resurrection.

BTW, where was Lazarus when Jesus raised him from the dead?

 

[XTruth]

Your statements are underlined. How do you do the quote thing to mahe it hi-lite?

Then that means man has a "triality" nature? Man doesn't have a soul and is a soul.
There are 3 deaths and 3 lifes of Scripture. I wasn't even talking about the 3 parts of man. You just want to argue don't you?

Brother, I think you been asked by the mods here to leave personal attacks alone. No need to equate me with being cunning like Satan. That's unproductive.
Sorry Mods, sorry RND. i WASN'T TRYING TO GIVE YOU A PERSONAL Attack, I was just making you aware that I know what you are doing.

Adam lived to be 930 years. A day to the Lord is like a thousand years (2 Pe 3:8). So indeed Adam died that day.
The Hebrew word used in Gen.2:17 is "yowm." It literally means a 24 hour period. Do you also believe that God made creation in 6,000 years? Also, I answer all your questions as best as possible. Do me the same respect and answer my question about whether or not you believe in soul sleep...it sounds like you do and would greatly help me understand where it is you are coming from :yes

So again, Satan was right. The "inner man" lives forever. But the Bible says "eternal life" is a gift. Is burning in hell forever a "gift?"
Eternal life is a gift. Jesus is Life (Jn.14:6). Apart from Him, eternal life does not exist. But that is b/c the lost and damned are not with God due to their own will to place their authority above His. They are eternal beings too. The same "eternal" used in Rom.6:23 is also used in Heb.6:2 for the doctrine of eternal judgment. Both "eternal's" are from the Greek word "aionios," (also used of past times, or past and future as well):- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began). Both eternal's are forever. Let's avoid splitting this hair any longer. All have eternal existance, not eternal life, as I have already explained what sense of the word I was using for a time now. I've also already answered your repeated question about Satan being right...he was deceiving Eve by telling her she would not die, since the serpent was still physically alive. She thought the death would've been physical...didn't understand the spiritual part, who knows if she even knew there was an eternal death...like the ones in hell that exist right now and will be thrown into the lake of fire at their judgment (Rev.20:11-15)...their eternal judgment, for the sentence lasts for eternity...while existing...some would say that they are alive, by definition, but I know that confuses some. They do not have eternal life, since they have no abiding life in them, though they exist...understand?

Again, Satan was right. Yet, man is always described as being "mortal" not "immortal."
The physical body is what is referred to as mortal (1 Cor.15:50-54).

The point I made was fairly clear and fairly simple. Man is not "immortal" without God. Eternal life is a gift. Roasting, toasting and fricasseeing in hell forever is not a "gift."
Okay...you answered my question. You do believe that the unrighteous become extinct at death. Next time, don't beat around the bush. I guess you also believe that God makes the unrighteous extinct souls come to life more than 1,000 years after dying (Rev.20), just to be sentenced to extinction again. Am I right?

Job 14:10-15.... In Job's time all sou8ls- those of the righteous as well as those who were wicked- went to sheol; but they were confined to separate compartments, one being a place of bliss and the other one of torture (Lk.16:19-31). When Christ went to sheol to liberate the righteous souls and take them to heaven with Him at His ascension, this ended the entrance of righteous souls into sheol (Ps.16:10; Eph.4:8-10; Heb.2:14-15). Now when a righteous person dies, the body still goes into the grave, but the soul and spirit go into heaven to await the time of the resurrection of the dead body (2 Cor.5:8; Phil.1:21-24; Heb.12:22-23; Rev.6:9-11).

verse 13..."the grave"...Hebrew word is "sheol," the place of departed spirits, not "qeber," the grave, or place of body at death.

Anything else, or are we done here?

 

[Rick W]

To quote a post:

Either click the button to the right above a post <QUOTE> then delete what you don't want quoted

Or

text here to be quoted

Quotation marks enclosing the Name must be used

 

[XTruth]

To quote a post:

Either click the button to the right above a post <QUOTE> then delete what you don't want quoted

Thank you

 

[Rick W]

means the following text to be quoted starts here.

Now define where the quoted text ends with

So for your post above to work (you had the beginning right)
now end it with [/quote]


In your textbox it would look like...

To quote a post:

Either click the button to the right above a post <QUOTE> then delete what you don't want quoted

 

[Rick W]

And when posted ...

To quote a post:

Either click the button to the right above a post <QUOTE> then delete what you don't want quoted

Don't delete the [/quote] at the end though.

To find out more about BBCode click the circled link found in your textbox.

 

[RND]

Then that means man has a "triality" nature? Man doesn't have a soul and is a soul.
There are 3 deaths and 3 lifes of Scripture. I wasn't even talking about the 3 parts of man. You just want to argue don't you?

3 deaths and 3 lives? :crazy

Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Brother, I think you been asked by the mods here to leave personal attacks alone. No need to equate me with being cunning like Satan. That's unproductive.
Sorry Mods, sorry RND. i WASN'T TRYING TO GIVE YOU A PERSONAL Attack, I was just making you aware that I know what you are doing.

I accpet your apology, and trust me the only thing I'm doing is asking questions.

Adam lived to be 930 years. A day to the Lord is like a thousand years (2 Pe 3:8). So indeed Adam died that day.
The Hebrew word used in Gen.2:17 is "yowm." It literally means a 24 hour period. Do you also believe that God made creation in 6,000 years? Also, I answer all your questions as best as possible. Do me the same respect and answer my question about whether or not you believe in soul sleep...it sounds like you do and would greatly help me understand where it is you are coming from :yes

I'm a fan of Bishop Usher's chronology. Hence, indeed the earth is 6 days old (6.000 years) and the 7th day is the sabbath of the earth for 1,000 years.

Also, I do not believe in "soul sleep." Souls die. Man is a "living soul."

Pro 19:16 He that keepeth the commandment keepeth his own soul; [but] he that despiseth his ways shall die.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

So again, Satan was right. The "inner man" lives forever. But the Bible says "eternal life" is a gift. Is burning in hell forever a "gift?"
Eternal life is a gift. Jesus is Life (Jn.14:6). Apart from Him, eternal life does not exist. But that is b/c the lost and damned are not with God due to their own will to place their authority above His.

Then if they are apart from the life source they're dead. Certainly, based on scripture they aren't being burned for eternity. Only the "righteous" can stand the flames!

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? 15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; 16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence [shall be] the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters [shall be] sure.

They are eternal beings too. The same "eternal" used in Rom.6:23 is also used in Heb.6:2 for the doctrine of eternal judgment. Both "eternal's" are from the Greek word "aionios," (also used of past times, or past and future as well):- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began). Both eternal's are forever. Let's avoid splitting this hair any longer.

No hair splitting. If man is "eternal" outside of the presence of the Lord then Satan was right.

All have eternal existance, not eternal life, as I have already explained what sense of the word I was using for a time now. I've also already answered your repeated question about Satan being right...he was deceiving Eve by telling her she would not die, since the serpent was still physically alive. She thought the death would've been physical...didn't understand the spiritual part, who knows if she even knew there was an eternal death...like the ones in hell that exist right now and will be thrown into the lake of fire at their judgment (Rev.20:11-15)...their eternal judgment, for the sentence lasts for eternity...while existing...some would say that they are alive, by definition, but I know that confuses some. They do not have eternal life, since they have no abiding life in them, though they exist...understand?

No, actually there is nothing in the scriptures that describe existing in any fashion outside the presence of the Lord.

Again, Satan was right. Yet, man is always described as being "mortal" not "immortal."
The physical body is what is referred to as mortal (1 Cor.15:50-54).

Is there another body I'm not aware of?

The point I made was fairly clear and fairly simple. Man is not "immortal" without God. Eternal life is a gift. Roasting, toasting and fricasseeing in hell forever is not a "gift."
Okay...you answered my question. You do believe that the unrighteous become extinct at death. Next time, don't beat around the bush. I guess you also believe that God makes the unrighteous extinct souls come to life more than 1,000 years after dying (Rev.20), just to be sentenced to extinction again. Am I right?

Did you ask a question about what I believed? And your only partly right. The first resurrection is only for the righteous (Rev. 20:4). The second resurrection is for the wicked when they will see why they are not saved.

Job 14:10-15.... In Job's time all sou8ls- those of the righteous as well as those who were wicked- went to sheol; but they were confined to separate compartments, one being a place of bliss and the other one of torture (Lk.16:19-31).

In Job's time? You mean God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow? BTW, you may want to brush up on Luke 16:19-31. It's a parable.

Who are the five brothers? Hint: Judah had five blood brothers.

When Christ went to sheol to liberate the righteous souls and take them to heaven with Him at His ascension, this ended the entrance of righteous souls into sheol (Ps.16:10; Eph.4:8-10; Heb.2:14-15).

Read 1 Peter 3:18-20 again. The same Holy Spirit that spoke to those in Noah's day is the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead.

"Christ also suffered when he died for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners that he might bring us safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit. So he went and preached to the spirits in prison--those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood.*

"Prison" is metaphorical for being outside of the presence of the Lord. I.E. the grave.

Psa 142:7 Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me.

Now when a righteous person dies, the body still goes into the grave, but the soul and spirit go into heaven to await the time of the resurrection of the dead body (2 Cor.5:8; Phil.1:21-24; Heb.12:22-23; Rev.6:9-11).

What purpose would that serve to go to heaven but have to come back to earth for a glorified body? That didn't happen to Jesus.

Do you have any scriptures that says the soul comes back to earth to receive a glorified body? Just one.

verse 13..."the grave"...Hebrew word is "sheol," the place of departed spirits, not "qeber," the grave, or place of body at death.

Do you know of another place departed souls go to other than the grave?

Anything else, or are we done here?

I don't know. Do you still believe in the "Hellenistic" notion of the duality of man? Tell me, what's the difference between the Christian notion that the soul floats to heaven at death and the Hindu belief that the soul floats off into a cow?

I have a few more questions that maybe you'd be good enough to address:

If Hell is real and if good people go to heaven and bad people go to Hell, why does EVERYONE, good or bad, go to the same place in the Old Testament? They ALL go to Sheol which the King James Version translated "Hell" thirty-0ne times, "grave" thirty-one times and "pit" three times? Are we all destined to go to Hell or did the King's translators make some gross translation errors?

If Hell is real, why don't the Jews, many who know the Old Testament better than most Christians, not believe in the modern Christian concept of Hell? They say they don't believe it because it is not in their Scriptures. Most scholars today can not find Hell in the Old Testament. Most leading Bible translations no longer contain the word Hell in the entire Old Testament. (Genesis through Malachi.)

If Hell doesn't exist in the Old Testament, how could Jesus and his disciples teach that salvation was deliverance from a place that is not even found in their Scriptures? (There was only the Old Testament at that time.) Would that not make Him appear like a false teacher? Or could it be that Jesus never taught such a concept in the first place? Could it be that this concept has been added to the church and SOME Bibles through "traditions of men?"

If Hell is real, since SOME English translations use the word Hell for the Greek word "Gehenna," in the New Testament, why didn't this same place (Gehenna) get translated Hell in the many places where it appears in the Hebrew form "ga ben Hinnom" in the Old Testament? If the Jews did not understand this valley as a symbol of everlasting torture, why do SOME English translations give this word such a meaning? And who burned who in this valley? And what was God's response for Israel doing such a horrible thing to their children? (Jer. 32:33-35) And how could God say "such a thing never entered His mind" if in fact He is going to do the very same thing to most of His own children?

If Hell was real, why didn't the church teach it until AFTER the church departed from reading the Bible in Greek and Hebrew, substituting Latin in its stead several centuries after Christ's death?

If Hell was real, why did not a single Christian writer of the first 3 centuries declare universalism as a heresy?

If Hell was real why didn't a single one of the early creeds express any idea contrary to universal restoration, or in favor of everlasting punishment in Hell?

If Hell was real why did not a single Church council for the first five hundred years condemn Universalism as heresy considering the fact that they made many declarations of heresy on other teachings?

If Hell was real, why did most of the early church's leading scholars and most revered saints advocate universal salvation?

If Hell was real, how is it that the most prominent universalists of the early church were born into Christian families and were most highly revered by their peers while those who advocated Hell came from paganism and confessed they were among the vilest?

If Hell was real and found in the original Greek manuscripts of the Bible, why is it that it was primarily those church leaders who either couldn't read Greek (Minucius Felix, Tertullian), or hated Greek as in the case of Augustine, that the doctrine of Hell was advocated? Those early church leaders familiar with the Greek and Hebrew (the original languages of the Bible) saw universal salvation in those texts. Those who advocated Hell got it from the Latin, NOT from the original Greek and Hebrew. Who would more likely be correct--those who could read the original languages of the Bible or those who read a Latin translation made by one man (Jerome)?

If Hell was real why do most leading historians acknowledge that the early church was dominated by universalism?

If Hell was real then why did four out of six theological schools from 170 AD to 430 AD teach universal salvation while the only one that taught Hell was in Carthage, Africa, again where Latin was the teaching language, not Greek?

If Hell was real why didn't Epiphanius (c. 315-403) the "hammer of heretics" who listed 80 heresies of his time not list universalism among those heresies?

If Hell was real, since most historians would acknowledge today that Origen was perhaps the most outstanding example of early universalism in the church, when Methodius, Eusibius, Pamphilus, Marcellus, Eustathius, and Jerome made their lists of Origen's heresies, why wasn't universalism among them? Could it be perhaps that it wasn't a heresy in the original church?

If Hell was real and a serious heresy, why was it not until the sixth century when Justinian, a half-pagan emperor, tried to make universalism a heresy? Interestingly, most historians will acknowledge that Justinian's reign was among the most cruel and ruthless.

If Hell was real, since the early church was closest to the apostles and since they were closest to the original manuscripts of the Bible, why did the vast majority of the early Christian believers NOT believe in Hell as a place of everlasting burnings?

If Hell was real and all died NOT because of their transgressions but because of Adam's transgression (Rom 5:18), why do many Christians not see what is plainly written, that "even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to ALL MEN, resulting in JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE!" (Rom. 5:18) This Scripture declares the FACT that all are justified due to Christ's righteous act. No one "decided" to die in Adam, it was "reckoned" to us. Equally no one "decided" to "receive eternal life," it is also "reckoned" to us. (A thorough understanding of Romans Chapter five carefully comparing several English translations would be a very good exercise. The omission of the definite article "the" in Rom. 5:15 before the word "many" in some translations has caused some great misunderstanding of this most important chapter of the Bible.)

If Hell is real, in Romans 5:19, the "many" who were made sinners were actually "all" of the human race. Why is the "many" who were made "righteous" not equally be "all" of the human race? "For as by one man's disobedience MANY were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience MANY will be made righteous."

If Hell is real and everlasting, why does Psalm 30:5 say His anger is but for a moment?

That's just a few of the many questions that could be asked about the notion than man is "immortal."

 

[XTruth]

Then that means man has a "triality" nature? Man doesn't have a soul and is a soul.
There are 3 deaths and 3 lifes of Scripture. I wasn't even talking about the 3 parts of man. You just want to argue don't you?

3 deaths and 3 lives? :crazy

Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I wrote lengthy on this on the first page. Stop wasting my time.

Spiritual death is separation of man from God due to sin. When one is spiritually dead, they can be alive physically (Mat.8:22; Col.2:14; 1 Tim.5:6), or he can be dead physically and alive in hell; conscious in the soul and spirit or the inner man. The resurrection of a man from spiritual death, or separation from God, takes place when one is saved from death in trespasses and sins (Eph.2:1-10), when he is born again (Jn.3:1-8), is made a new creature in Christ (2 Cor.5:17-18), and is fully reconciled to God through Christ (Eph.2:12-16; Col.1:20-22; 2:6-13; 2 Cor.5:14-21).
This is because we are always owed separation from God, or death, for sin; every sin, ever time (Gen.2:17; Ex.32:33; Eze.3:17-21; 18:24;33:12-13; Mat.15:10-20; Jn.8:51; Rom.1:29-32; 6:23; 1 Cor.3:16-17; 6:9-10, 19-20; Gal.5:19-21; 6:7-8; Eph.5:3-5; Col.3:5-10; Rv.21:8). The penalty for sin is eternal separation from God, or eternal death in hell. Had it been physical death, every man would automatically be justified in the sight of God when he physically died. With the penalty thus paid, God could not punish the sinner any further than physical death. Such death would be the means of justification. This cannot be the case. All will die physically, save the Rapture saints, but some will be lost (Rev.20:11-15) while others will be saved (Rev.21:1-7). So, the death meant for sin could not possibly mean a physical one (Gen.2:17; Rom.6:23).
Neither could it mean a spiritual death, which is the state of man in sin. If so, then all who commit sin would automatically be justified in the sight of God. This would make committing sin the penalty for committing sin, which is absurd. It would mean that all who commit sin would be saved and inherit eternal life. This would guarantee eternal life for all men, for all have sinned (1 Ki.8:46; Rom.3:23). It would make the salvation of souls unnecessary, as well as the death of Christ, for all men had sinned before He appeared as man.
The real penalty for sin is eternal death, by separation from God in the lake of fire, which is never quenched (Isa.66:22-24). This is the true meaning for death as used for the penalty of sin, not a physical or spiritual death. Physical death is the result of spiritual and eternal death, and eternal death is the penalty for spiritual death, or disobeying God. Therefore, Genesis 2:17 and Genesis 3:4 should make more sense to you now; knowing that the death spoken of was a spiritual one leading to eternal damnation if they did not repent, being born spiritually, again.

 

[RND]

alive in hell; conscious in the soul and spirit or the inner man.

So, we're back to where we started. Satan was right after all. Man is immortal no matter what. Alive with God or "alive" in hell.

So, the death meant for sin could not possibly mean a physical one (Gen.2:17; Rom.6:23).

The wages of sin is death.....physical death. The grave. The great separator between man and God.

The wages of sin is not eternal torment. And the gift of God through Christ is not eternal torment.

The real penalty for sin is eternal death, by separation from God in the lake of fire, which is never quenched (Isa.66:22-24).

Then it's agreed. Men do not live on in an "immortal" state in torment.

Therefore, Genesis 2:17 and Genesis 3:4 should make more sense to you now...

God said "you will die." Satan said "you won't die."

Air + dirt = man. Subtract either of the two and whammo! Death abounds.

 

[XTruth]

Sorry you don't understand a single thing I've said. I've explained all I can here. Sorry.

 

[RND]

Sorry you don't understand a single thing I've said. I've explained all I can here. Sorry.

You haven't explained anything. You've merely continued to post rhetoric that assumes man has a "dual" nature of body and soul. If a man's body dies and his "inner man" (Hellenistic) goes to either heaven to live with God forever or hell to roast and toast forever then no matter what, man is "immortal."

Whether it's "alive" in heaven or "alive" in hell (no one's ever explained how "dead" people feel pain to me) Satan would be right, man doesn't die.

 

[Captain Sarcastic]

According to Scripture, death isn't cessation of existence. It's separation from God. So Satan is, once again (think Dr. Perry Cox of "Scrubs" fame), "WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WROOOOOOOOONG!"

 

[RND]

"...death isn't cessation of existence..."

That would mean man is immortal on his own without God. That would make Satan right, not wrong. If a man "lives" in heaven or "lives" tormented in flames forever he would still be immortal.

 

[XTruth]

"...death isn't cessation of existence..."

That would mean man is immortal on his own without God. That would make Satan right, not wrong. If a man "lives" in heaven or "lives" tormented in flames forever he would still be immortal.

What you're not understanding is that the serpent, being used as an agent of Satan, was talking about physically dying. So he was wrong. The thing is, he wasn't trying to be honest, he was deceiving. He was very aware that disobedience would cause the righteous to be damned...that's what happened to him and those angels that followed suit. But to your question, all beings are immortal, whether angelic or human. God created all beings immortal, and it was good. He created the whole population of man in the loins of Adam by the law of reproduction. That is why by his one sin, we all became guilty (Rom.5:12-21). That is why it is said that we must be born again spiritually. To do something again means its been done at least once before. While Adam was righteous, all were righteous. When he became unrighteous, we all became unrighteous. Immortality is a gift to all beings. Even the angels had this gift and rebelled to their own eternal destruction. All are immortal, whether in heaven or in hell. God gave life, it is His creation that chooses where they want to spend their eternity. Eternity in hell is eternally dying, but always in a conscious existance. Eternity in heaven is eternally living by the abiding life one receives from abiding in Christ, the giver and sourse of life, and always in a conscious existance.

 

[RND]

What you're not understanding is that the serpent, being used as an agent of Satan, was talking about physically dying. So he was wrong.

You mean people "don't" die physically?

The thing is, he wasn't trying to be honest, he was deceiving. He was very aware that disobedience would cause the righteous to be damned...that's what happened to him and those angels that followed suit. But to your question, all beings are immortal, whether angelic or human.

Well, if all beings are "immortal" then Satan wasn't lying, he was telling the truth. "You won't die."

God created all beings immortal, and it was good.

Eternal life is a gift, not and inherent fact. If man is immortal then Satan wasn't lying.

He created the whole population of man in the loins of Adam by the law of reproduction. That is why by his one sin, we all became guilty (Rom.5:12-21).

The wages of sin....We earn our own penalty.

That is why it is said that we must be born again spiritually. To do something again means its been done at least once before. While Adam was righteous, all were righteous.

I wasn't around during Adam's day, were you?

When he became unrighteous, we all became unrighteous.

Sin came into the world because of Adam. We earn our own wages. Otherwise we could all point to Adam and say, "It's his fault."

Immortality is a gift to all beings.

I thought you just said we were born with it, "God created all beings immortal." So, which was it? BTW what kind of gift is burning in hell forever? A gag gift? Kinda like the buzzer in the hand routine? Exploding cigar?

Even the angels had this gift and rebelled to their own eternal destruction. All are immortal, whether in heaven or in hell.

So one need not follow Christ to obtain immortal life? We get it no matter what?

God gave life, it is His creation that chooses where they want to spend their eternity. Eternity in hell is eternally dying, but always in a conscious existance.

How can one die yet still have "a conscious existence?"

Eternity in heaven is eternally living by the abiding life one receives from abiding in Christ, the giver and sourse of life, and always in a conscious existance.

So does Christ give life to those that are burning alive forever?

 

[XTruth]

Gen.2:17 - "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Adam died the same day he sinned, so this should be understood as a 24 hour day. The penalty, eternal death, took effect immediately upon the act of disobedience.

Here, I know you haven't looked up this reference passage I keep giving you:
Rom.5:12-21
"12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord."

It is believed by some that Adam and Eve would not have ever died physically if they had not been banned from the tree of life, that they would've just continued in a mortal body forever. The tree of life is now in heaven and we eat from it forever...so i agree. Either way, God was not a liar, they did die that day (Gen.2:17).

Yes, by sin, physical death came. But the death that came that day was the spiritual death, not that it didn't exist, but that it had the death penalty of sin on it's account...the wages of. Look at verse 15 above. The "dead" there is spiritual. If it were physical, then you would be dead. Did the offence of Adam pass to you? Are you physically dead? The truth is that you were born guilty (Ps.51:5; vs.12, 17, 19).

Forget what I said about immortality being a gift...totally throwing you off. Yes, you are right, eternal life is a gift. In Rom.5:21, righteousness reigns unto ETERNAL LIFE, so on the flip side in that same verse, does righteousness reign unto physical death, or eternal death? The Strong's Concordance has 3 Greek words for immortality. One of the definitions is unending existance, from the Gr. word "aphtharsia." Dictionary.com also says endless life or existance. Satan never even said anything about immortality, though Adam and Eve already had it. Gen.3:4 is the 1st lie in Scripture (Jn.8:44).

No, Satan did not tell the truth, he was lying.
Jn.8:44 - "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

RND said...."The wages of sin....We earn our own penalty." The penalty is upon all people by the sin of one (Rom.5:12). That's why we have to be born again (spiritually). And yes, the wages we are owed for sin, before and after the new birth, is death. The spirit still exist, it is just called dead b/c of the death penalty on it. God has no authority to take you to eternal life in heaven by the legal rights of Satan since what is owed to you by the law od sin is eternal separation from God's abiding life. Man still exist in hell, thus being immortal. But without the life of God. That's why it is called eternal judgment, eternal damnation, eternal punishment, the second death.

XTruth wrote "That is why it is said that we must be born again spiritually. To do something again means its been done at least once before. While Adam was righteous, all were righteous."

RND responded "I wasn't around during Adam's day, were you?"
Jn.3:3 - "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Gen.1:31 - "31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." Jas.1:17 - "17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." No, I wasn't there in the garden, but I believe what God has said, do you (Rom.5:12-21)?



RND said: Sin came into the world because of Adam. We earn our own wages. Otherwise we could all point to Adam and say, "It's his fault."

I say: "yes, it's his fault sin came into our world" By his one sin, we were made guilty without sinning ourselves. "12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" But Adam won't be judged for the lost's sins. Each is responsible for their own eternal destination.

RND said: "So one need not follow Christ to obtain immortal life? We get it no matter what?" All have an eternal existance. Only those who follow the ways of Christ will receive eternal life. Those who follow the ways of Satan will receive eternal death (And I refuse to answer ,yet again, what eternal death means as to how they still exist.). You need to rebuke the enemy that blinds you with lies. 1 Tim.4:1 - "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils." 2 Cor.4:4 - "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." 2 Tim.4:3-4 - "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

RND said: How can one die yet still have "a conscious existence?"
So do you believe man still exist after they die?

RND said: So does Christ give life to those that are burning alive forever?
No, they had their chance to accept Him and follow Him while on earth. They rejected Christ, who is life. Again, death in hell is called the 2nd death because of the separation from God, the giver of all life, not b/c they become spiritually, physically, and eternally extinct.



So I have had fun answering all your questions with patience, b/c I am commanded to give an answer, but it's time for you to start telling me what you believe. You have not been so clear with your own faith. So, what do you believe happens after physical death for the lost and the saved? Also, do you believe there are 3 deaths talked about in the Bible (physical, spiritual, eternal)?

 

[RND]

Forget what I said about immortality being a gift...totally throwing you off. Yes, you are right, eternal life is a gift.

If "eternal life" is a gift then nothing more needs to be said. Immortality is conditional upon one's relationship with Jesus Christ.

So, what do you believe happens after physical death for the lost and the saved?

See Job 14:10-15. SAlso see: Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16; Eccl. 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3, 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10

"The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later."
[quote:16fx4t04]
Also, do you believe there are 3 deaths talked about in the Bible (physical, spiritual, eternal)?

[/quote:16fx4t04]

No.

 

[XTruth]

I know, that's why I 've spent so much time trying to show you what death is, in it's 3 states, according to Scripture. But it's obvious you think I'm blind that Scripture says there is no eternity for the unrighteous, and vica versa, so I guess we're through here. Thanks for the talk

 

[RND]

I know, that's why I 've spent so much time trying to show you what death is, in it's 3 states, according to Scripture.

Not according to my belief system. Hence that's why some are resurrected to eternal life and some are resurrected to permanent death (as in "not alive").

But it's obvious you think I'm blind that Scripture says there is no eternity for the unrighteous, and vica versa,

I never said your were blind brother. Just showed you that man is not immortal inherently. Eternal life is conditional, not a guarantee. To be "immortal" and roast forever is simply not scriptural.

so I guess we're through here. Thanks for the talk

You are most welcome.

 

[RND]

I do however have a few more questions that maybe you could answer for me. If Adam and Eve were spiritually dead how did they raise children that worshiped the Lord? Who taught their children about God? Why did God continue to bless them ("I have gotten a man from the LORD")?

Also, since the Bible says that God blessed Adam and Eve (Gen. 5:2), I don't see anything regarding when or where this blessing was removed. Did God ever take away Adam's blessing and if so, where can I find this in scripture?

Lastly, do you see God's admonition to Adam in Genesis 2:17 as a warning or a threat?