Are you a conservative or a liberal christian?

[Deussum]

I was raised to be a Muslim, I agree on the behalf of Islam about the argument between both religions against Jesus. Jesus held a good amount of knowledge about the creational power, however the belief that Jesus was the “Son of God” or God in the flesh seem very far fetched to me. Neither was Muhammad a God, but he was a messenger. The fact that so many Christians believe that only Jesus in all history of humanity was an embodiment of God is baffling to me.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I was raised to be a Muslim, I agree on the behalf of Islam about the argument between both religions against Jesus. Jesus held a good amount of knowledge about the creational power, however the belief that Jesus was the “Son of God” or God in the flesh seem very far fetched to me. Neither was Muhammad a God, but he was a messenger. The fact that so many Christians believe that only Jesus in all history of humanity was an embodiment of God is baffling to me.

Well, who else in all history prophesied his own death and resurrection and then fulfilled that same prophesy?

 

[Eugene]

Hi Deussum and welcome. I moved this thread to this forum, and we'll just have to see the direction it takes. Our Terms of Service rule 2.2 states the following:
No active promotion of other Faiths is allowed: You will not post any messages; links, images or photos that promote a religion or belief other than Biblical and historical Christianity.
I do encourage learning of the faith you now claim, and am pretty sure we have many familiar with your questions, and hopefully with scripture that will help you to grow in grace and knowledge of our LORD. 2 Pet 3:18.

Just to kick this off I will quote scripture from the following.
Isaiah 43:11 I, even I (Jesus), am the LORD (Jehovah); and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 43:15 I am the LORD (Jehovah), your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

John 1:3 All things were made by him (Jesus); and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

John 8:29 And He (Our Father) that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. As a man Jesus took on Him the place as servant.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth," and that will be especially manifest in Revelation 1:8 I (Jesus) am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

From what I've read, Islam believes Jesus to be a prophet. Do prophets lie? and then Jesus said in Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.
Thanks for reading.

 

[LovethroughDove]

I was raised to be a Muslim, I agree on the behalf of Islam about the argument between both religions against Jesus. Jesus held a good amount of knowledge about the creational power, however the belief that Jesus was the “Son of God” or God in the flesh seem very far fetched to me. Neither was Muhammad a God, but he was a messenger. The fact that so many Christians believe that only Jesus in all history of humanity was an embodiment of God is baffling to me.

So, here is where you'll either understand or not.

He is alive today because of the resurrection. That is why.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Christianity teaches that Jesus is the atonement for mankind and that His coming to earth as a man was planned centuries before it happened, the purpose being like a sacrificial lamb to take on mankind's sins. Judaism does animal sacrifices to repent of their sins, it's based on that principle.

 

[Deussum]

Thank you for your answers, please feel free to continue this topic, I really value your opinions.

 

[brother Paul]

Thank you for your answers, please feel free to continue this topic, I really value your opinions.

Well Deussum, here is how I have seen the argument. When I once had a discussion like this with a Muslim friend I presented examples from the Torah (which the Qur'an says is the ordinance of God) that show God as manifest in human form. He quickly insisted the Torah that we now have had been changed, and was not even written in this NEW form until about 2 centuries after Mohammed.

In one sense he was correct. The Masoretic text was compiled and written down in the late 8th century (though the work had been being done for some time). This is what he was taught by his Imam (as well as suicide for the Jihad was an honorable way to paradise). The Imam claimed this was what had been being taught for centuries and no one (even the most scholarly Rabbi) could deny the Torah compilation everyone used was no older then this.

However, the problem IS...that when we discovered the Dead Sea Scrolls we had found copies of almost every section of the Torah and lo an behold these were about 95% the same as what is written in the Masoretic. The other 5% are easily demonstrated to be due to the use of the Holy Name (YHVH) in its archaic form and the indicators of two very similar but slightly different textual traditions for the Hebrew Text.

What this proved (beyond a reasonable doubt) was the the Imams had been wrong. THESE texts were from almost 1000 years before Mohammed let alone the Masoretic text and it bore witness to many of the traditional understandings of the Rabbis we find in the 1st and 2nd century Targums (Aramaic paraphrases of the Torah and Prophets that reflect what they understood these things to mean).

Now right here for the sake of teaching truth to their flock all Imams after about 1950 should have taught and preached the correction...they should have confessed they had been wrong and the Torah had NOT been changed.

So I direct you to the Torah where the Lord (YHVH) manifests in the flesh (and in other forms) in a number of places. Since the Qur'an says the Torah IS the ordinance of God (which it also teaches cannot be changed, and apparently has not been) and that Moses was a Prophet (it also teaches the Prophet of God CANNOT lie) then those histories which the Lord told him to collect and or write down must be true if the Qur'an is correct. If they histories are NOT true then the Qur'an is incorrect on two counts:

a) the ordinance of God had been changed (Qur'an says it cannot)
b) the Prophet lied (Qur'an says he cannot)

In the Torah the Lord He appears to Abraham as a man when Abraham was in the fields of Mamre and according to all the rabbis long before the Masoretic or Mohammed this history written down by Moses says that YHVH sent forth the two men (who were really angels) to rain down fire and brimstone from YHVH in heaven...now there is ONLY ONE YHVH. Again when Jacob wrestled the Man whom he would not let go of till He blessed Him it is written (in the ordinance, by the Prophet) He had seen God 'face to face' and called the place Peni-El.

Personal encounters with the Creator (merciful and compassionate, blessed be His name) in various manifestations are found all through the Torah alone (not to speak of references in the Prophets of His going to do this again in the future)

 

[Edward]

I don't understand it what it has to do with whether people are conservative or liberal...

 

[brother Paul]

A second question arises...we know that angels have manifest in human form....if mere angels con do this is it possible the omniscient Creator (even of the angels) could not? Think about it.

Now was the man Christ Jesus God or a God? Not really. He was a man made a little lower than the angels (Hebrews 2) but God was IN HIM reconciling the world to Himself since conception. The Spirit was of God and the flesh was of Mary (of the lineage of David). He was the Tabernacle of God made without hands, the fullness of the deity bodily. He was a FORM, of God, that allowed us to see and comprehend the personhood and heart of God Himself.

In Jesus God is manifest incarnate. The term used for YHVH manifest (even in earlier Jewish tradition) is the Word or Son.

 

[Eugene]

We know that angels have manifest in human form....if mere angels con do this is it possible the omniscient Creator (even of the angels) could not?

Greetings brother Paul, I'll just paste the following scripture, and small comment.
Gen 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him (Abraham) in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
Gen 18:2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
Gen 18:3 And said, My Lord (Abraham addressed these three men as Lord), if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

I appreciate your post concerning the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Torah.

 

[brother Paul]

Greetings brother Paul, I'll just paste the following scripture, and small comment.
Gen 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him (Abraham) in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
Gen 18:2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
Gen 18:3 And said, My Lord (Abraham addressed these three men as Lord), if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
I appreciate your post concerning the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Torah.

You are the first person I have ever heard interpret this as implying the three were "the Lord" especially since later we learn the other two were angels. And when he begs for the Lord to not pass away from him he is cleaving to the feet of only one.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't understand it what it has to do with whether people are conservative or liberal...

If you're a conservative Muslim it means you keep the law in the Quran.
If you're liberal, it means you put less faith in the Quran.
I hope Deussum answers this himself.

 

[Eugene]

Greetings brother Paul, I'll just paste the following scripture, and small comment.
Gen 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him (Abraham) in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
Gen 18:2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
Gen 18:3 And said, My Lord (Abraham addressed these three men as Lord), if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

You are the first person I have ever heard interpret this as implying the three were "the Lord" especially since later we learn the other two were angels. And when he begs for the Lord to not pass away from him he is cleaving to the feet of only one.

Dear brother Paul, thanks for reading the post. We certainly do not have to agree, but I'll just suggest these next scriptures attempting to justify the thinking I have on the three men of Gen 18:1-2 that is said to be the LORD (Jehovah).

Who is the angel of the Lord of the Old Testament?
Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him (Moses) in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Exo 3:6 Moreover he said (the angel of the Lord), I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Was Jesus the one sent (messenger) as we read in Luk 4:43 . . . I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent. (Now here I don't see Jesus as a created angel some may attempt to interpret, but as the messenger (angel) of our Father preaching the kingdom.)

Gen 18:22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD. (Is there of our Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit that remained not God?)
Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know. (Now if this is the LORD (Jehovah) going to Sodom, who are the angels mentioned in Gen 19:1-2?)

I truly appreciate any input you have.

 

[brother Paul]

There is a difference between THE Angel of the Lord (YHVH-Malak) and AN angel (Malak) in general. The former is the LORD, the Creator, manifest to men, and the others are creatures created by Him. Like when the Prophet Isaiah says that by the Angel of His presence He saved them, This YHVH-Malak is the King of Angels (YHVH) manifest. He IS the presence of God Himself.

So re-read and think...the men (the two angels) went toward Sodom BUT ABRAHAM stood yet before THE LORD (YHVH)

 

[Eugene]

There is a difference between THE Angel of the Lord (YHVH-Malak) and AN angel (Malak) in general. The former is the LORD, the Creator, manifest to men, and the others are creatures created by Him. Like when the Prophet Isaiah says that by the Angel of His presence He saved them, This YHVH-Malak is the King of Angels (YHVH) manifest. He IS the presence of God Himself.

So re-read and think...the men (the two angels) went toward Sodom BUT ABRAHAM stood yet before THE LORD (YHVH)

And the LORD said He was going to Sodom in Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know. (Now if this is the LORD (Jehovah) going to Sodom, who are the angels mentioned in Gen 19:1-2?)

You advised me to think; it's to late, and I'm too old. Just celebrated my 61st wedding anniversary, and my wife loves me anyway.

 

[brother Paul]

22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord. 23 And Abraham came near and said, “Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

See here in context that the Lord and the "two men" (angels) were separate beings. They went, and the Lord remained AND conversed with Abraham. We must read ALL of what is said on a matter to discern the truth. Like in Exodus 3...if we only read the first couple of passages (or took them out isolated) a doctrine could be formed to say that this was not YHVH but AN angel. It is not until we read the entire chapter that THIS being called "the Angel of the Lord" IS YHVH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

 

[brother Paul]

Anyway addressing the OP, I say all Christians ought to consider themselves Coniberals or Libservatives because though we should hasten to the conservative platform of say "the sanctity of every individual life" and frugal economics, and valuing the word of God, we also should encourage and support the liberals platform of feeding of the hungry, housing the homeless, healing for all, and so on. Neither political camp here is comprised of actual "Christians" (followers of Jesus Christ) though some in either are and many are by name only, both party extremes do however manipulate and exploit large segments of the Christian vote.

 

[Eugene]

22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord. 23 And Abraham came near and said, “Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

See here in context that the Lord and the "two men" (angels) were separate beings. They went, and the Lord remained AND conversed with Abraham. We must read ALL of what is said on a matter to discern the truth. Like in Exodus 3...if we only read the first couple of passages (or took them out isolated) a doctrine could be formed to say that this was not YHVH but AN angel. It is not until we read the entire chapter that THIS being called "the Angel of the Lord" IS YHVH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

My last reply to this notion if we can't begin to see one another's points and thanks very much for your input.

Which one of the three men was the LORD in Gen 18:2?

Was it the man going to Sodom in Gen 18:20-21?

Is the word “LORD” in all upper case interpreted as Jehovah?

If Jesus said that He was Jehovah, would that make a difference as to whether these three that appeared as men to Abraham was our Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit?

 

[Corn Pop]

Hi. We can keep it simple, here are 4 verses, one from each of the 4 gospels. This is what Jesus said, not the Apostle Paul that muslims believe corrupted the word. This is Jesus speaking.

Jesus prophecys his death and says he will raise from the dead.

Luke 9:22
Jesus said: “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.”

Jesus says he will die on the cross for sins.

Mark 10:45
Jesus said: For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Jesus says he will raise the dead on the the last day, thats a big claim to make as both in the old Testament and in Islam God is the only one who can raise the dead. And whoever believes in him he will raise them up.

John 6:40
Jesus said: For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Jesus tells his diciples to go out and preach the gospel after he raised from the dead.

Matthew 28:19
Jesus said: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

If muslims believe Jesus as a prophet and his words, then Jesus is the one who said he will raise the dead on the last day, and only God can make that claim. Even in the quran allah says he revealed the gospel and Torah and it is truth and no one can change his words.

If our muslim friends believe in Jesus as a prophet, they need to know about him and who he was and what he claimed. Jesus refers to God as his Father although the gospel, that makes him the Son of God.

 

[brother Paul]

My last reply to this notion if we can't begin to see one another's points and thanks very much for your input.

Which one of the three men was the LORD in Gen 18:2?

Was it the man going to Sodom in Gen 18:20-21?

Is the word “LORD” in all upper case interpreted as Jehovah?

If Jesus said that He was Jehovah, would that make a difference as to whether these three that appeared as men to Abraham was our Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit?

Yes brother we can agree to disagree and not break the unity of the Spirit. I get that and agree. But then what does one do with the words of Jesus when He says no has seen the Father at ANY time and when we realize that the Spirit is well...a Spirit, and has no physicality? If these other two were also "persons" of the Trinity, then it would seem to me that Jesus either was wrong or He lied and I accept neither as true. But that is just me I guess...shalom be unto you my brother.