Are you saved?

[JM]

Do you know Christ as your Lord and Saviour?

 

[thessalonian]

I have been saved, I am saved, and I am being saved. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. Praise God! :-D

 

[JM]

I have been saved, I am saved, and I am being saved. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. Praise God! :-D

I've seen that exact quote in the Pocket Guide to Catholic Apologetics! Are you print Thess? :-D I agree with the statement in general, it's the details that would separate our views.

 

[thessalonian]

Surely you believe we must continue to follow him, whether you think it is automatic or not? i.e. whether grace is irresistable or not?

 

[Solo]

Salvation depends on being born of God. Many are professed Christians but have not been born of God. Salvation is a free gift given by God by His grace through faith. Many professed Christians do not have faith, only false doctrines.

I am saved as I was born of God 22 years ago, even though I told people that I was a Christian before that time because I thought it was a religious stand, not a life change.

 

[JM]

Surely you believe we must continue to follow him, whether you think it is automatic or not? i.e. whether grace is irresistable or not?

Yes I do. http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc17.html

 

[AVBunyan]

Surely you believe we must continue to follow him, whether you think it is automatic or not? i.e. whether grace is irresistable or not?

What if one is truely "saved" and then quits following Christ - will he still make it?

A simple yes or no will suffice and yes I mean a simple Yes or No.

God bless

 

[JM]

Surely you believe we must continue to follow him, whether you think it is automatic or not? i.e. whether grace is irresistable or not?

What if one is truely "saved" and then quits following Christ - will he still make it?

A simple yes or no will suffice and yes I mean a simple Yes or No.

God bless

lol, good question AV. I'd have to say they were never saved if they walked away. How could they stop following Christ? Just as God keeps His Holy Word pure by the Spirit He keeps believers by the Spirit. False belief is just that and those who were 'once enlighten' can fall away. Those who 'partake' of the Grace while in the church can never be restored again either. Believer's can backslide, but not lose salvation. If a believer backslides and is never corrected by God, or feels godly sorrow for their sins, I have to doubt their salvation. But what do I know?

Peace.

 

[thessalonian]

I'd have to say they were never saved if they walked away.

Oddly enough the Bible never does say this. It does make statements like "fallen from grace" and "severed from Christ". But then I think AV is in the camp that says you can be fallen from grace and severed from Christ and still make it to heaven. :roll: Someday maybe one of you will come up with a real answer as to how one can be said to have fallen from something or been severed from something he was never in or attached to in the first place. How can a man be said to have fallen from a tree if he is simply standing under it and has no broken leg. :-?

 

[thessalonian]

Surely you believe we must continue to follow him, whether you think it is automatic or not? i.e. whether grace is irresistable or not?

What if one is truely "saved" and then quits following Christ - will he still make it?

A simple yes or no will suffice and yes I mean a simple Yes or No.

God bless

I don't see a one word statement in the Bible, yes or know so I will have to give you some other quotes. By the way this is a protestant version RSV.

Gal.5
[4] You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Heb 6
[4] For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
[5] and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
[6] if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.


Heb.10
[10] And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
[14] For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
[29] How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

1Cor.15
[2] by which you are saved, IF you hold it fast -- unless you believed in vain

I'm just getting warmed up. You might also want to check out Luke 12 where the faithful servant was saved if the master came at one time but if master delayed and he started doing evil, he was treated with the UNBELIEVERS. Now I am quite sure we will agree on how unbelivers are treated in the afterlife. There are many other such passages but I fully expect the usual obvuscations :o and so I will not waste more time on this.

 

[thessalonian]

By the way I should make a distinction. I do not think that one who is "saved" in the sense that he will end up in hell. But there are those who are "saved" in the sense of in God's grace and their sins were forgiven, yet they are able to fall from grace or be cut off from Christ because they do not persevere in grace. They do not use the grace they are given to continue their walk and do not do the good that God wants them to do. These were never "saved" in the first place if it is in the context of persevering unto salvation.

 

[JM]

Salvation depends on being born of God. Many are professed Christians but have not been born of God. Salvation is a free gift given by God by His grace through faith. Many professed Christians do not have faith, only false doctrines.

I am saved as I was born of God 22 years ago, even though I told people that I was a Christian before that time because I thought it was a religious stand, not a life change.

My point exactly.

 

[mutzrein]

Do you know Christ as your Lord and Saviour?

Yes

 

[AVBunyan]

I don't see a one word statement in the Bible, yes or know so I will have to give you some other quotes. By the way this is a protestant version RSV.

Thess - why is it so hard for you to say, "yes" or "No"?

I asked..."What if one is truely "saved" and then quits following Christ - will he still make it? "

My question could truely have been answered with a simple yes or no. I think that you were just afraid to say it so as not to be pinned down.

I take it from your writings it is a NO.

Thess, when will you admit that Rome teaches a pure works salvatioin. Just throw faith and grace out the window.

When Rome uses grace they are really saying, "Out of grace God excepts your good works"

When Rome uses faith they are really saying, "By faith you have to believe that God by grace will except your good works...plus faith in the mass, baptism, the church, prayers, church membership....etc."

God bless

 

[JM]

I'd have to say they were never saved if they walked away.

Oddly enough the Bible never does say this.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. (KJV)

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened/photizo, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (KJV)

Photizo:
to give light, to shine
to enlighten, light up, illumine
to bring to light, render evident
to cause something to exist and thus come to light and become clear to all
to enlighten, spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge
to instruct, to inform, teach
to give understanding to
Eph. 1:18; Heb. 6:4

Photismos:
the act of enlightening, illumination
brightness, bright light
2 Cor. 4:4; 4:6; 2 Tim. 1:10

αδυνατον γαρ τους απαξ φωτισθεντας γευσαμενους τε της δωρεας της επουρανιου και μετοχους γενηθεντας πνευματος αγιου

This is sometimes called covenant breaking.

 

[thessalonian]

Thess - why is it so hard for you to say, "yes" or "No"?

Why are you so against me quoting scripture?

I asked..."What if one is truely "saved" and then quits following Christ - will he still make it? "

My question could truely have been answered with a simple yes or no. I think that you were just afraid to say it so as not to be pinned down.

Actually it could not because by the grace of God one can return to grace. You question is a yes or no one in the context of the traditions of your mind. And I understand those traditions and therefore I understand why you think it is a simple yes or no answer. The scriptures I quoted pin me down as much as I need to be pinned down.

I take it from your writings it is a NO.

As I have said one can return to the grace of God. He will always take us back.

Thess, when will you admit that Rome teaches a pure works salvatioin. Just throw faith and grace out the window.

When pigs fly. When we you admit that you don't have a clue about Catholicism. You keep making these blatantly ignorant statements. There is no way Catholicism is a pure works salvatoin. Throw faith and grace out the window? Really AV. You are only going to convince the lurkers and fence sitters of your prejudice against Catholicism. It's sad when my opponents resort to such ignorant distortion.

When Rome uses grace they are really saying, "Out of grace God excepts your good works"

Nope AV. You twist again. The works we do are not OUR works. They are the grace of God working in us. Even this seems to make you squirm. To admit there is value in God's power working in you seems to be repulsive to you. It's sad that you are so controlled by your false theology.

When Rome uses faith they are really saying, "By faith you have to believe that God by grace will except your good works...plus faith in the mass, baptism, the church, prayers, church membership....etc."

More total nonsense. Have you ever heard the phrase "ex oper operato"? It means by virtue of the work performed. Now you jump up and down and say, ah, they do teach salvation by works. Problem is these works are the work of God through the Church. I cannot baptize myself. I cannot consecrate and administer the Eucharist to myself. God saves through his Church which is the pillar and support of the truth. Once again any good we do is simply because of his grace working in us. See Eph 3:20 AV. Also I could look it up but there is a verse about God producing thirty, sixty or 100 fold in us. That's him dude. It's not about our works if it is in the context of works apart from grace. But there is no doudt form Rom 2:4-8 and Matt 25 that "deeds" are neccessary for entry in to heaven. These deeds once again are done by God's grace.

Blessings

 

[Simple Mind]

Have you ever heard the phrase "ex oper operato"? It means by virtue of the work performed. Now you jump up and down and say, ah, they do teach salvation by works. Problem is these works are the work of God through the Church. I cannot baptize myself. I cannot consecrate and administer the Eucharist to myself. God saves through his Church which is the pillar and support of the truth. Once again any good we do is simply because of his grace working in us. See Eph 3:20 AV. Also I could look it up but there is a verse about God producing thirty, sixty or 100 fold in us. That's him dude. It's not about our works if it is in the context of works apart from grace. But there is no doudt form Rom 2:4-8 and Matt 25 that "deeds" are neccessary for entry in to heaven. These deeds once again are done by God's grace.

Obviously, some of us may believe that works are a RESULT of faith (based on James 2:17). So while works is necessary to show that the faith that saves is a living faith, it is the faith that saves, not the works (either of us or works from God, other than what was done on the cross).

But my more important question is this - I'm curious as to how you look at Rom 10:9-10, which I took to be quite clear about all that is necessary and sufficient for salvation.

Blessings,
Lou

 

[thessalonian]

Obviously, some of us may believe that works are a RESULT of faith (based on James 2:17).

Oh, I do believe that works are a result of faith or at least works that are of value are of value because we have faith. Actually both faith and works are a result of grace. I would rather put it that way because I see those who are not Christian doing works. I see Mormons having food shelves and caring for the poor. I know of aethisits who have done good for others. Our works can only be good because of God working in and through us. And they are not our works but God's works, by his grace. But it is clear from every single verse that speaks about judgement that we will be judged on the fruit of our lives. On whether or not we bore fruit. We of course must be "saved" to bear fruit but in the end the criteria will be did we do good or did we do evil. You can't read romans 2:4-8 any other way so to do good is a part of the salvation equation. No doudt about it.

So while works is necessary to show that the faith that saves is a living faith, it is the faith that saves, not the works (either of us or works from God, other than what was done on the cross

).

Can you show me a verse that says faith alone saves. I see 273 verses in the NT that use the word faith.. I don't see any that say that faith alone saves.. James 2:24 says exactly the opposite. Jesus tells us "not everyone who says "lord, lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven but those who DO the will of the Father". Our act of faith must be preceeded by God's grace. God is about saving us even before we come to know him. He is guiding our lives and bringing us around to him. I heard it said the other day that for many it takes 7 times of being evangelized before they convert. The Apostle Paul heard the chastisements of Stephen and this prepared him to be knocked off his high horse. God's grace is working in the world before faith. Our faith is the result of grace. It is grace alone that saves. Faith is a result of grace. So are works. When we work in faith it is God working through us. Eph 3:20-21.

[20]
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
[21] to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.

Why do we think we need to run away from the work that God does in us and through us and think that it has no value or power to save? Once again, it is works done in faith that are of value. Can't have one without the other. A man who is not "in grace" could build a skyscrapper to the sky and fill it with poor and feed them and he would end up in hell.

my more important question is this - I'm curious as to how you look at Rom 10:9-10, which I took to be quite clear about all that is necessary and sufficient for salvation.

[9] because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
[10] For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.

Amen to this. Do you think that one only has to confess with his lips once and it is done. Or must one continue confessing with his lips? Note it says "you WILL be saved". We are saved if we are in his grace. But we still need saving. We still need to continue to call on him in times of trial.

This must be taken in the context of the other scriptures as well. Jesus says "not everyone who says Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingom of heaven but those who do the will of the Father". We must have an active and living faith. That belief spoken of in your passage must in fact be an active and living faith. We must excercise our faith or it will grow tired and weak and eventually we will fall away.

Blessings,
Lou[/quote]

 

[AVBunyan]

Obviously, some of us may believe that works are a RESULT of faith (based on James 2:17).\

Can you show me a verse that says faith alone saves.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (the faith) not of yourselves (it is Christ's faith - Gal. 2:16): it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We are justified by the faith of Jesus CHrist.

It is by faithand it is not even our faith - it is Christ's.

Hey folks - when it comes to justification take your faith and works and flush em! :o

 

[Simple Mind]

On whether or not we bore fruit. We of course must be "saved" to bear fruit but in the end the criteria will be did we do good or did we do evil. You can't read romans 2:4-8 any other way so to do good is a part of the salvation equation. No doudt about it.

We're in agreement that works is part of the salvation equation, but I think we differ on whether its part is ONLY the result of being saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8) or in fact part of the pre-requisite for salvation.

Can you show me a verse that says faith alone saves. ... Faith is a result of grace. So are works. When we work in faith it is God working through us. Eph 3:20-21. .

Totally agree that works are a result of saving grace, and in a qualified way faith is also a result of grace. But I think AV provided the verses in his reply - same verses I would pick.

Why do we think we need to run away from the work that God does in us and through us and think that it has no value or power to save? Once again, it is works done in faith that are of value. Can't have one without the other. A man who is not "in grace" could build a skyscrapper to the sky and fill it with poor and feed them and he would end up in hell.

Christian works are good and I wouldn't run away. Even agree we can't have one without the other. But we cannot ignore the Scriptures that plainly state we are saved by grace through faith and nothing else.

Do you think that one only has to confess with his lips once and it is done. Or must one continue confessing with his lips? Note it says "you WILL be saved". We are saved if we are in his grace. But we still need saving. We still need to continue to call on him in times of trial.

This must be taken in the context of the other scriptures as well. Jesus says "not everyone who says Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingom of heaven but those who do the will of the Father". We must have an active and living faith. That belief spoken of in your passage must in fact be an active and living faith. We must excercise our faith or it will grow tired and weak and eventually we will fall away.

Thank you - this helps in understanding a different point of view.

The "will be saved" is not conclusive since it simply reflects the conditional nature of salvation depending on the confession. The grammar would be the same if the meaning was just confess once. Perhaps someone who knows the Greek grammar better can tell us more. Besides, v. 10 uses only the present tense (that much I can tell from the Greek).

What you said about an active and living faith is an excellent reminder to us all and I would agree with it - but I look at it as the _result_ of being saved by grace through faith. Jesus raises it as an _indicator_ of whether we have a living faith or a dead one as explained later to us in James. Note that the unsaved also had works, so the difference is not so much works but works that reflected a living faith. Add that to Eph 2:8 and Rom 10:9,10 and we get this picture: salvation is (as Paul plainly said) by grace through faith and not works, but works flow from the grace and faith. Thus works is a necessary but not sufficient indicator of salvation - indicator, not pre-requisite.

Much blessings,
Lou