As it Was In The Days Of Noah...

[Edward]

I have a question. It arose out of another thread, but I didn't want to take it off topic there so will ask it here. First the scripture, then the question:

Matthew 24:37-39
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be./(KJV)

The question is: In verse 38...who is the "they" that is being spoken of by Jesus?

I used to think that, well it's obviously mankind, duh. But...if we go to Genesis to see how it was in the days of Noah, it brings to question if this is a correct assumption for me. Huh. Help me out here brothers and sisters.

Genesis 6:1-8
6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord./(KJV) (and it continues and goes into the story of Noah...)

Verse 2 here is speaking of the sons of God saw the daughters of men and THEY took them wives of all they chose...So can you see the source of my question here? Who's they in Matthew speaking of?

Mankind is not the Sons of God, we are the Sons of Adam. So when Jesus spoke of they were marrying and so forth...exactly who is Jesus speaking of? For in Genesis it is speaking of the Sons of God, so the context is on them in the days of Noah. You see my predicament?

Let's not make this a Nephilim thread, don't even mention them, it upsets too many people. I would like find out who "they" are. Stick to the topic brothers and sisters.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I personally have never thought of any reason why 'they' can not simply mean the disobedient of the day. 'They' are all those who are absorbed in the workings and ways of the world, oblivious to what is about to happen to them. That certainly does not include us...those who are awake and alert and are not engrossed in, and preoccupied with, the ways of the world. But I'm open to change that POV if there is another way to look at this.

 

[JLB]

I have a question. It arose out of another thread, but I didn't want to take it off topic there so will ask it here. First the scripture, then the question:

Matthew 24:37-39
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be./(KJV)

The question is: In verse 38...who is the "they" that is being spoken of by Jesus?

I used to think that, well it's obviously mankind, duh. But...if we go to Genesis to see how it was in the days of Noah, it brings to question if this is a correct assumption for me. Huh. Help me out here brothers and sisters.

Genesis 6:1-8
6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord./(KJV) (and it continues and goes into the story of Noah...)

Verse 2 here is speaking of the sons of God saw the daughters of men and THEY took them wives of all they chose...So can you see the source of my question here? Who's they in Matthew speaking of?

Mankind is not the Sons of God, we are the Sons of Adam. So when Jesus spoke of they were marrying and so forth...exactly who is Jesus speaking of? For in Genesis it is speaking of the Sons of God, so the context is on them in the days of Noah. You see my predicament?

Let's not make this a Nephilim thread, don't even mention them, it upsets too many people. I would like find out who "they" are. Stick to the topic brothers and sisters.

Just as important, Noah knew what was coming because he had a relationship with The Lord and knew what He wanted, and was faithful to complete what he was called to do.

This is the example for us to follow today.

That Day did not come upon him as a thief in the night.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:4


JLB

 

[Edward]

Jethro. Sure. That's exactly what I used to think. But in order to perhaps gain insight on a scripture, we go to other related scriptures which speak of the same thing and see if they mesh. So to do this with the scripture in Matthew, we of course fo back to the story of Noah...which begins with a bunch of talk about the Sons of God. Why is this? Could this possible be the "they" that Jesus is speaking of? Interesting for sure and a definite possibility.

 

[Edward]

Just as important, Noah knew what was coming because he had a relationship with The Lord and knew what He wanted, and was faithful to complete what he was called to do.

This is the example for us to follow today.

That Day did not come upon him as a thief in the night.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:4


JLB

Those are good scriptures JLB, but do little to answer the question posed in the OP. Who are "they"

 

[WIP]

As I read through the 24th chapter I noticed in verse 4 and again in verse 23 Jesus says to beware of any man that would deceive and then he goes on to use the term "they" when he refers back to those who would deceive. In the case of Noah, could "they" mean everyone except Noah's family since those were the only ones declared righteous by God?

 

[JLB]

Jethro. Sure. That's exactly what I used to think. But in order to perhaps gain insight on a scripture, we go to other related scriptures which speak of the same thing and see if they mesh. So to do this with the scripture in Matthew, we of course fo back to the story of Noah...which begins with a bunch of talk about the Sons of God. Why is this? Could this possible be the "they" that Jesus is speaking of? Interesting for sure and a definite possibility.

Could point Edward.

Lets look at these two scriptures and see how they "mesh".

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

Compare with -

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

• For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven. compare to - they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven...
• He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet... compare to - with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
• they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. compare to - even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

These two scriptures are the same event!


JLB

 

[TimothyW]

I think "they" are all those who didn't get on the Arc with Noah. When the flood came they perished.

I think that Jesus is saying the same thing will happen at the last judgment, when He returns.

 

[Deborah13]

I think WIP is correct in his view. Noah was a righteous man and had a true relationship with God.

So 'they' would be all the others who did not knowledge God in their lives. They were to busy with the world.

imo, Surely if there had been others besides Noah and his family, the Lord would have saved them, as well.

 

[Sinthesis]

Gen 4:26 - And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

The sons of God were those people who called upon the name of The Lord and were thus positioned to inherit all of God's blessings. Unfortunately they corrupted their righteous ways by intermingling with those who followed the ways of men. This would have seemed expedient to them, because they achieved great power and success through their transgressions. Consider the mindset of Job's companions who considered one's worldly circumstances as indicative of one's spiritual righteousness. However, regardless the worldly wealth they acquired, their behavior was wicked. As even in their wickedness they still claimed to follow God, they needed to be destroyed so as to preserve God's good name.

Solomon committed a similar sin when he took multiple foreign wives. Their influence corrupted his reign. Although, unlike the sons of God, Solomon finally repented, the effects of the sin eventually resulted in the division of the kingdom.

 

[Edward]

I do want to understand this correctly. But...I see opinions with no or little thought of context while expressing them. Don't take that the wrong way, I thought the very same thing until something clicked in my mind when I read it and I pondered more closely. Let us not simply dismiss the first few verses of Genesis, when expressing our opinions and beliefs, please. If we are to take the stance of the "they" being all the unrighteous and so forth, then I would ask for an explanation on the first few verses of the Genesis 6 book that I posted. Why wouldn't that be a consideration to us considering that we seek context for Jesus words, in Genesis Noah account?

I'm not saying anyone is wrong. I'm asking where am I wrong? ;)

 

[Edward]

Sinthesis, that would be incorrect inasmuch as the scriptures we are discussing. The "sons of God" is originally translated from Beni-El-Oheim or something like that, (memory), the term as used in Genesis only appears twice in the bible, the other place is in Job, when the sons of God (Angels, or directly created beings) came to present themselves before the Lord.

The other uses of the Hebrew phrase bene [ha]’elohim (“[the] sons of God”) refer to heavenly beings (Job 1:6; 2:1; and 38:7)3, as do the similar phrases bene elyon (Psalm 82:6) and bene elim (Psalm 29:1; 89:6).41 Peter 3:18– 20, 2 Peter 2:4–10, and Jude 6 mention certain angels who left their own abode and are now being held in “chains” or “prison” until the day of judgment because of their sin in Noah’s day. Jude 14–15 also quotes from the Book of Enoch, one of many apocryphal writings from before the time of Christ that identify the sons of God as fallen angels. This is all easily confirmed with an online Concordance like ESword.

JLB, I'll get to your post momentarily. Thank you for your patience brother.

 

[TimothyW]

As I read through the 24th chapter I noticed in verse 4 and again in verse 23 Jesus says to beware of any man that would deceive and then he goes on to use the term "they" when he refers back to those who would deceive. In the case of Noah, could "they" mean everyone except Noah's family since those were the only ones declared righteous by God?

I agree

I do want to understand this correctly. But...I see opinions with no or little thought of context while expressing them.

Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight, and the earth was filled with violence. And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth. And God said to Noah, “I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Genesis 6:11-13 ESV
"Them" is all of "Them" who were destroyed in the flood.

But I will establish my covenant with you, and you shall come into the ark, you, your sons, your wife, and your sons' wives with you. Genesis 6:18
"You" is everyone else, those who are not "Them". In other words, everyone who came into the ark, Noah, his wife, his sons and his daughters in law. "They" means everyone except Noah's family, just as WIP already said.

I admire you, that you are digging deeply into the scripture and not just resting on the first impression. But in this case, I think you are reading something into the account that isn't intended. I hope that statement doesn't offend you, I don't mean to do that.

 

[Ryan]

Start at the first words when it says in Genesis 6:1, "and man began..." actually means to detoriate, pollute, dissolve, profane. When you see those words, you know that what is going to follow is evil and wickedness on the part of mankind. In Genesis 6:2 the thought was the sons of God were those of Seth's line, and the daughters of man were of Cain's line. The righteous hooking up with the unrighteous so to speak. And as the bible tells time after time, the mixing of God's people with those not of Him, will only bring chaos and strife. But you cannot look at the context of what is happening in those verses without including verses 11-13:

And being ruined is the earth before the Elohim, and being filled is the earth with wrong. 12 And seeing is Yahweh Elohim the earth, and behold! Ruined is it, for ruining is all flesh its way on the earth. 13 And saying is the Elohim to Noah, "The era of the end of all human flesh is come before Me, for full is the earth with wrong because of their presence. Now behold Me ruining them with the earth.

What is happening here is mankind is so corrupt and polluted, the earth is literally throwing up and the earth and weather is in a state of chaos. That is what is happening before the doors were finally closed. There was evilness that resulted in worldwide "natural occurences" yet for 120 years Noah was a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:4) and called the world to repentence. The first watchman of the walls so to speak. Is it any wonder why throughout the bible, evil times corresponds with famine?

Mark 13:8
For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in various places; there will also be famines. These things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

This is the times we are living in now. The same things that happened then, are happening now. I am personally sick of hearing about these 100 once in a year occurences. We have "natural disasters" and it is directly related to the evilness and corruption of the nations. Global warming can be stopped if the world comes to worldwide repentance. But we know that is not going to happen. So while the world yawns at another earthquake that devastates various parts of the world, hurricanes and typhoons leveling places causing massive amounts of damage, etc, the world continues to truck on by as if nothing happened until the next devastating phenomenon. That is what is meant by they were giving into marriage and such, instead of the world repenting and calling upon the name of the Lord, they defy him and say they are going to rebuild, just bigger and stronger next time. The "they" is the unrighteous who continue on in their ways blind to the wrath of God that is about to befall them. IMO.

 

[stovebolts]

Personally, I see "they" as everyone except the 8 that were saved by water...

1 Peter 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

 

[Deborah13]

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord./(KJV) (and it continues and goes into the story of Noah...)

Verse 2 here is speaking of the sons of God saw the daughters of men and THEY took them wives of all they chose...So can you see the source of my question here? Who's they in Matthew speaking of?

It appears to me that like everyone has said the 'they' that Jesus is talking about are the same ones mentioned in v 5,6,and 7 and in v7, identified as 'them'. Man and his behaviors were the cause of the flood.
It does not say "....I will destroy the sons of God..."
So I don't see any clear connection between who Jesus was talking about and the sons of God in verse 2.

It is curious scripture v1-4 and I don't know for sure what that is talking about, although I think Sinthesis gave as good an answer to that as any.

 

[JLB]

Sinthesis, that would be incorrect inasmuch as the scriptures we are discussing. The "sons of God" is originally translated from Beni-El-Oheim or something like that, (memory), the term as used in Genesis only appears twice in the bible, the other place is in Job, when the sons of God (Angels, or directly created beings) came to present themselves before the Lord.

The other uses of the Hebrew phrase bene [ha]’elohim (“[the] sons of God”) refer to heavenly beings (Job 1:6; 2:1; and 38:7)3, as do the similar phrases bene elyon (Psalm 82:6) and bene elim (Psalm 29:1; 89:6).41 Peter 3:18– 20, 2 Peter 2:4–10, and Jude 6 mention certain angels who left their own abode and are now being held in “chains” or “prison” until the day of judgment because of their sin in Noah’s day. Jude 14–15 also quotes from the Book of Enoch, one of many apocryphal writings from before the time of Christ that identify the sons of God as fallen angels. This is all easily confirmed with an online Concordance like ESword.

JLB, I'll get to your post momentarily. Thank you for your patience brother.

I agree with your assessment of sons of God.

Take your time.

Sons of God are angels.


JLB

 

[Edward]

I agree with your assessment of sons of God.

Take your time.

Sons of God are angels.


JLB

This much is clear to me. Thank you. Hence my question. This is a real head scratcher. I can not accept the Sethite view. Substantial liberties must be taken with the literal text to propose the "Sethite" view. (In data analysis, it is often said that "if you torture the data severely enough it will confess to anything.")

The term translated "the Sons of God" is, in the Hebrew, B'nai HaElohim, "Sons of Elohim," which is a term consistently used in the Old Testament for angels, and it is never used of believers in the Old Testament. It was so understood by the ancient rabbinical sources, by the Septuagint translators in the 3rd century before Christ, and by the early church fathers. Attempts to apply this term to "godly leadership" is without Scriptural foundation.

The "Sons of Seth and daughters of Cain" interpretation strains and obscures the intended grammatical antithesis between the Sons of God and the daughters of Adam. Attempting to impute any other view to the text flies in the face of the earlier centuries of understanding of the Hebrew text among both rabbinical and early church scholarship. The lexicographical antithesis clearly intends to establish a contrast between the "angels" and the women of the Earth.

If the text was intended to contrast the "sons of Seth and the daughters of Cain," why didn't it say so? Seth was not God, and Cain was not Adam. (Why not the "sons of Cain" and the "daughters of Seth?" There is no basis for restricting the text to either subset of Adam's descendants. Further, there exists no mention of daughters of Elohim.)

And how does the "Sethite" interpretation contribute to the ostensible cause for the Flood, which is the primary thrust of the text? The entire view is contrived on a series of assumptions without Scriptural support.

The Biblical term "Sons of Elohim" (that is, of the Creator Himself), is confined to the direct creation by the divine hand and not to those born to those of their own order. In Luke's genealogy of Jesus, only Adam is called a "son of God." The entire Biblical drama deals with the tragedy that humankind is a fallen race, with Adam's initial immortality forfeited. Christ uniquely gives them that receive Him the power to become the sons of God. Being born again of the Spirit of God, as an entirely new creation, at their resurrection they alone will be clothed with a building of God and in every respect equal to the angels. The very term oiketerion, alluding to the heavenly body with which the believer longs to be clothed, is the precise term used for the heavenly bodies from which the fallen angels had disrobed.

The attempt to apply the term "Sons of Elohim" in a broader sense has no textual basis and obscures the precision of its denotative usage. This proves to be an assumption which is antagonistic to the uniform Biblical usage of the term. Beside the obvious fact that isn't there; if the line of Seth was so Godly, why did they perish in the flood?

So if not the Sethite view, as good an answer as any will not do. If the context does not happen mean the unrighteous, this would make a profound change in the understanding of the text for us. This is worth looking closer at and not dismissing it too easily methinks. Keep 'em coming folks, you aren't offending me. I want to get to the truth here.

 

[JLB]

This much is clear to me. Thank you. Hence my question. This is a real head scratcher. I can not accept the Sethite view. Substantial liberties must be taken with the literal text to propose the "Sethite" view. (In data analysis, it is often said that "if you torture the data severely enough it will confess to anything.")

The term translated "the Sons of God" is, in the Hebrew, B'nai HaElohim, "Sons of Elohim," which is a term consistently used in the Old Testament for angels, and it is never used of believers in the Old Testament. It was so understood by the ancient rabbinical sources, by the Septuagint translators in the 3rd century before Christ, and by the early church fathers. Attempts to apply this term to "godly leadership" is without Scriptural foundation.

The "Sons of Seth and daughters of Cain" interpretation strains and obscures the intended grammatical antithesis between the Sons of God and the daughters of Adam. Attempting to impute any other view to the text flies in the face of the earlier centuries of understanding of the Hebrew text among both rabbinical and early church scholarship. The lexicographical antithesis clearly intends to establish a contrast between the "angels" and the women of the Earth.

If the text was intended to contrast the "sons of Seth and the daughters of Cain," why didn't it say so? Seth was not God, and Cain was not Adam. (Why not the "sons of Cain" and the "daughters of Seth?" There is no basis for restricting the text to either subset of Adam's descendants. Further, there exists no mention of daughters of Elohim.)

And how does the "Sethite" interpretation contribute to the ostensible cause for the Flood, which is the primary thrust of the text? The entire view is contrived on a series of assumptions without Scriptural support.

The Biblical term "Sons of Elohim" (that is, of the Creator Himself), is confined to the direct creation by the divine hand and not to those born to those of their own order. In Luke's genealogy of Jesus, only Adam is called a "son of God." The entire Biblical drama deals with the tragedy that humankind is a fallen race, with Adam's initial immortality forfeited. Christ uniquely gives them that receive Him the power to become the sons of God. Being born again of the Spirit of God, as an entirely new creation, at their resurrection they alone will be clothed with a building of God and in every respect equal to the angels. The very term oiketerion, alluding to the heavenly body with which the believer longs to be clothed, is the precise term used for the heavenly bodies from which the fallen angels had disrobed.

The attempt to apply the term "Sons of Elohim" in a broader sense has no textual basis and obscures the precision of its denotative usage. This proves to be an assumption which is antagonistic to the uniform Biblical usage of the term. Beside the obvious fact that isn't there; if the line of Seth was so Godly, why did they perish in the flood?

So if not the Sethite view, as good an answer as any will not do. If the context does not happen mean the unrighteous, this would make a profound change in the understanding of the text for us. This is worth looking closer at and not dismissing it too easily methinks. Keep 'em coming folks, you aren't offending me. I want to get to the truth here.

I don't know what the Sethite view is.

Here is what I know.

If the sons of God are human, then why is the union between one human and another human producing Giants.

The New Testament refers to these in Noah's day as angels.

19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 1 Peter 3:19-20

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4-5

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; Jude 1:6


The union between angels and women produced giants, who are grossly abnormal in size.

The union between humans does not.


JLB

 

[Edward]

I don't know what the Sethite view is.

Here is what I know.

If the sons of God are human, then why is the union between one human and another human producing Giants.

The New Testament refers to these in Noah's day as angels.

19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 1 Peter 3:19-20

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4-5

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; Jude 1:6


The union between angels and women produced giants, who are grossly abnormal in size.

The union between humans does not.


JLB

I believe you are correct, and have the scriptures to back up the view you have presented. This is where I am right now.

The Sethite view absolutely no scriptural support.

So if what you are presenting as a view does happen to be the correct view (and it does make sense!) then...would it be reasonable to take this context into the reading of Matthew and read Jesus words as if he were speaking about "they" being the Sons of God...as in the days of Noah!

If so, this would certainly throw different ramifications upon the interpretation and understanding of Jesus words, would it not? Perhaps.