At What Point is a Christian Marriage Established

[Mike]

I've seen a few threads lately have have dealt with permissible behavior between two people outside the confines of marriage. By the time I got around to reading through them, I would have been repeating what others had already said if I responded.

I want to focus on the point at which a marriage, a "Christian" marriage, is created and what is necessary for this to be a covenant acknowledged by God. In today's society, we acknowledge a marriage by a signed license and vows taken with witnesses. But this seems more of a legal process to have their union recognized by the government where they are married.

Genesis talks about the two becoming one. Matthew reaffirms this and quotes from Genesis. But how and when do the two become one? Looking at an excerpt from Malachi 2, there are some verses that speak to the covenant and seem to point toward God's peoples' covenant with Him, but also with each other in marriage.

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-23114">10</sup> Have we not all one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our fathers by breaking faith with one another?

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-23115">11</sup> Judah has broken faith. A detestable thing has been committed in Israel and in Jerusalem: Judah has desecrated the sanctuary the LORD loves, by marrying the daughter of a foreign god. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-23116">12</sup> As for the man who does this, whoever he may be, may the LORD cut him off from the tents of Jacob <sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=&quot;#fen-NIV-23116d&quot; title=&quot;See footnote d&quot;>d</a>]"></sup> —even though he brings offerings to the LORD Almighty.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-23117">13</sup> Another thing you do: You flood the LORD's altar with tears. You weep and wail because he no longer pays attention to your offerings or accepts them with pleasure from your hands. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-23118">14</sup> You ask, "Why?" It is because the LORD is acting as the witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you have broken faith with her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-23119">15</sup> Has not the LORD made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith with the wife of your youth.

A marriage is consummated with an act of intimacy after a vow has been taken to commit themselves to each other and God joins them as one. I do believe, in a truly Christian sense, that two people can stand before God and make a vow to each other AND to God that they will remain faithful to each other and to God; and that this is a very serious and meaningful promise that God will bless if it is sincere. If a man and a woman earnestly commit their union to each other and to God, is there anything more than needs to be done? Is there anything biblical that says a pastor needs to join them in marriage? If there is, I'm not finding it.

My wife and I were joined in marriage in a church, by a pastor, in the witness of people and before God, so I'm certainly not trying to convince anyone that this is not important. Just asking if others believe it is necessary.

 

[Pard]

I am in full agreement with you Mike.

The conventional marriage is important and all, but God doesn't care about the dress and the people and the pastor and the cake and the tux. God cares about the vow made to one another and to Him.

 

[sherri2]

The bible tells us not to vow. To let our yes be yes and our no be no - and anything more then that 'is of the evil one'. The marriage vows are vows. And madmade. God takes them seriously. (Forgotten the scripture on that but it's in there.)

There's no way I'm going to be vowing anything to anybody if/when I marry. And to be honest, I have no intention of marrying in a church or by a pastor. I used to be a bit of a traditionalist in some ways but not so much these days.

I don't have any problems with traditional weddings per say (apart from the vowing and some of the more sexist elements that came from an unhealthy tradition) and I've always enjoyed other peoples. But apart from the dress and the cake, I could pass and happily just sign the papers in a registry office. Once it's legal, it's done.

If God says something he means it. No vows. And without them, it pretty much nullifys the need for most of the ceremony. So no ceremony either (or a very short one) I think every person who has ever done that needs to repent - or face the reality of telling God why and how they failed in all the ways they did in keeping those vows on judgement day.

A couple of really nice designer frocks at somewhere pretty swish could possibly make up for the dress too. So yeah.

A contract is a contract. Make it legal. Bobs your uncle. (Just 'swearing to each other' is kind of dangerous territory. I wouldn't do it outside of extreme circumstances (like being about to die on the mission field in outer mongolia) with a guy I knew was also about to die. You're opening the situation up to all kinds of horrible possibilities. If someone can't raise the money for a marriage license and make the effort required to sign a form or two - you really think you have a solid enough basis for trust over a lifetime?


PS. I'm completly for having people pray a blessing over your marriage though (if christian.) The more of that the better. That would be the most important part for me (aside from the signing.)

 

[Nick]

To be honest, I'd never really thought that marraige (by God's standard) anything more or less than the social norm. But now that you mention it Mike, I agree with you. I don't think it's harmful to do all that stuff, but it doesn't seem necessary.

I would be interested in what the vows would be then? Would they be the same if one had the normal ceremony?

 

[Michae1]

Until governments started issuing marriage licenses, couples were considered to be married when they held themselves out as such. (Remember, governments don’t issue marriage licenses for moral or religious reasons, but for legal ones.)

Sometimes there were public ceremonies, but in many cases the marriage was simply a mutual decision followed by behavior consistent with that of a married couple. Even today one of the tests of common law marriage is whether the surrounding community thinks of the couple as being married based on its observation of their behavior.

Since God judges our actions by the motives of our heart, the real test is whether the couple truly believes they are married.

I like to think of the wedding ceremony, and all the stuff associated with it, as just a party. Show up, celebrate, have some fun, then go home.

 

[Nick]

Until governments started issuing marriage licenses, couples were considered to be married when they held themselves out as such. (Remember, governments don’t issue marriage licenses for moral or religious reasons, but for legal ones.)

Sometimes there were public ceremonies, but in many cases the marriage was simply a mutual decision followed by behavior consistent with that of a married couple. Even today one of the tests of common law marriage is whether the surrounding community thinks of the couple as being married based on its observation of their behavior.

Since God judges our actions by the motives of our heart, the real test is whether the couple truly believes they are married.

I like to think of the wedding ceremony, and all the stuff associated with it, as just a party. Show up, celebrate, have some fun, then go home.

Yes, I agree. Good point.

 

[sherri2]

Within cultures where the couple lived in a community with their families, there are always and have always been ceremonies. So what if the nation isn't developed enough to give marriage licenses. A couple still celebrated with a ceremony traditionally.

I think you're deliberatly pushing black and white into grey areas here.

 

[Mike]

To be honest, I'd never really thought that marraige (by God's standard) anything more or less than the social norm. But now that you mention it Mike, I agree with you. I don't think it's harmful to do all that stuff, but it doesn't seem necessary.

I would be interested in what the vows would be then? Would they be the same if one had the normal ceremony?

Well, (this is preference), I would draw from the "Love Chapter" (1 Cor 13) and promise all the things that are defined as love. I imagine a quiet forest with light rays breaking through the trees and a trickling rivulet bubbling by - just as meaningful would be in your living room.

But it would be a premeditated (well thought out and prayed on), forward thinking (not the feeling for the day), honest, sincere (this is a serious moment, just as much as the moment at the altar) offering of their marriage and asking that God would abide in them and dwell within their house and hearts and to bless this sacred union.

I don't think anything special to be worn or rights are even necessary.

I'm old fashioned, so I "prefer" a church wedding, but I think this comes down to vows that are instrumental in creating the union that God will bless.

Sorry, Sherri. I have a lot of love for you and your faith, but in striving NOT to be legalistic, it seems like you're being legalistic. A Vow, a promise, a covenant... semantics, so saying covenants are fine, but vows are forbidden is a bit legalistic for my taste. (my taste )

 

[Nathan]

Seramonies are quite the norm. Not that they are required to make the marriage legit. We have an account of Jesus at one, and we have a promise that we will be at one with Him, one day.

I find it interesting also. I think that marriage is a commitment. And I think that you are very correct in that it does not take man to confirm it at all.

But I think that there is something very special, and very true, to putting aside the flesh side of us that wants to "get it on", and making a proclamation that these two people have decided to commit there selves to each other. And then waiting till as many as possible can be gathered together and share this commitment with them.

We as a people of God have always found that there is wisdom in a "multitude", and that where "two or more" are gathered together, etc, there is something about many people gathering together. Could we not go through a small, yet very intimate marriage ceremony with Christ when we leave this body? Why is He waiting for all who are going to come, to come?

I would consider marriage to be established when the two people join in heart and spirit knowing that the other is going to provide all there needs. It might be the first date, it might be after they have been seeing each other for years. Either way, I think that there is wisdom in a ceremony and a gathering of friends and family.

This would be an excellent study to pursue. Biblically, that is, and historically as it relates to the Jewish people. After all, it is the relationship that described Israel to God, and the Church to Christ. Good study.

 

[Nick]

Well, (this is preference), I would draw from the "Love Chapter" (1 Cor 13) and promise all the things that are defined as love. I imagine a quiet forest with light rays breaking through the trees and a trickling rivulet bubbling by - just as meaningful would be in your living room.

But it would be a premeditated (well thought out and prayed on), forward thinking (not the feeling for the day), honest, sincere (this is a serious moment, just as much as the moment at the altar) offering of their marriage and asking that God would abide in them and dwell within their house and hearts and to bless this sacred union.

I don't think anything special to be worn or rights are even necessary.

I'm old fashioned, so I "prefer" a church wedding, but I think this comes down to vows that are instrumental in creating the union that God will bless.

Sorry, Sherri. I have a lot of love for you and your faith, but in striving NOT to be legalistic, it seems like you're being legalistic. A Vow, a promise, a covenant... semantics, so saying covenants are fine, but vows are forbidden is a bit legalistic for my taste. (my taste )

Ok cool. Interesting thoughts. This is great advice, as I am yet to be married :D. Thanks Mike.

If you were to be married again, would you have the 'normal' ceremony, while obviously recognising what you have above? Or would you just do the vows before God?

 

[lamplady]

All around the world weddings take place and I don't know of one which doesn't include a public ceremony no matter how different.

Jesus was at a WEDDING when he changed the water into wine. He was taking part in a CELEBRATION. The wedding and the celebration were PUBLIC.

When 'adam' 'knew' his wife it was before God. Therefore I think a MARRIAGE begins when the two gets MARRIED and PUBLICLY make VOWS to GOD that they will stay together. I think it's the public promise that is very important.

If you look at the bible you can see virtually from the beginning laws, rituals, ceremonies, promises were public and they played humongous roles therefore we mustn't dismiss it's importance.

We should remember the message a marriage sends out that is the promise in front of God.

 

[Mike]

Ok cool. Interesting thoughts. This is great advice, as I am yet to be married :D. Thanks Mike.

If you were to be married again, would you have the 'normal' ceremony, while obviously recognising what you have above? Or would you just do the vows before God?

Hopefully, I'll never have to make that decision. If I had to do it all over again, I don't know... We were not active in our faith when we got married. We'd have to give it a lot of thought. We'd definitely have a ceremony, if for no other reason than to avoid a family outcry, but I would think hard about the two of us approaching the Lord on our own and asking for her hand in marriage in the presence of God alone. That would be very special. :yes I'm thinking many couples of faith make a moment out of praying to God with their intentions and asking for His blessing, but I'm not sure many do that and call it a marriage. Of course we'd have to have a MC signed with a witness and have someone officiate to be recognized by the state.

 

[Nick]

Hopefully, I'll never have to make that decision. If I had to do it all over again, I don't know... We were not active in our faith when we got married. We'd have to give it a lot of thought. We'd definitely have a ceremony, if for no other reason than to avoid a family outcry, but I would think hard about the two of us approaching the Lord on our own and asking for her hand in marriage in the presence of God alone. That would be very special. :yes I'm thinking many couples of faith make a moment out of praying to God with their intentions and asking for His blessing, but I'm not sure many do that and call it a marriage. Of course we'd have to have a MC signed with a witness and have someone officiate to be recognized by the state.

You've given me some good stuff to think about Mike . Now off to bed...*yawn*

 

[theLords]

I am in full agreement with you Mike.

The conventional marriage is important and all, but God doesn't care about the dress and the people and the pastor and the cake and the tux. God cares about the vow made to one another and to Him.

Yes He does!!! I tell Him about what I want all the time. :D

My Jesus, what will He do if I ever go Bridezilla on Him

 

[sherri2]

Sorry, Sherri. I have a lot of love for you and your faith, but in striving NOT to be legalistic, it seems like you're being legalistic. A Vow, a promise, a covenant... semantics, so saying covenants are fine, but vows are forbidden is a bit legalistic for my taste. (my taste )

Actually I was just quoting scripture.

James 5:12 But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath, but let your yes be yes and your no be no, that you may not fall under condemnation.

Matt 5 "Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

Matt 12:36 "But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.

The word 'idle' can also be translated as 'careless' or something you arn't willing to put the effort into fulfilling. I wouldn't like to have to give an account of every part of the marriage vows I failed in.


PS. And just as an interesting aside. The scriputures in Matthew come directly below jesus's teaching on divorce.