Atheism Vs. Christianity. Is there really nothing to lose?

[Blazin Bones]

INTER-FAITHISM FORUMS on the internet everywhere!
You cannot always trust everything you hear,because religion
isn't going anywhere. What is there to gain from atheism?
There is everything to lose in atheism.

You're right, so why should I believe anything you say?

There is nothing to lose in atheism, except maybe your pride, and ego.

This was a post by Tua in the evolution forums. He seems to think that atheism is the right way to go because there is nothing else to lose. What do you say?

Here's my take. By choosing to believe there is nothing after this life you have all ready condemned your self to eternal death. Even if you do only die once. Second, you have nothing to look forward to at the end of your life so why try and become someone better than who you are now. We Christians live our lives with the hope that one day we will meet our God, and that he will bless us richly in heaven for following his son, Jesus The Christ. God's Blessing.

 

[Quath]

It's Pascal's wager. The wager says that atheist have nothing to lose by becoming Christian and they may gain eternal life. So the reward is great for not having to "pay" anything.

Here are the problems:

1. You do have to play. At the very least is your time in church. You also pay with your time in other church activities and tithing.

2. It makes no sense that God is that easily fooled. I have no believe that God exists. I can play act like He does, but I doubt that would fool Him if He realy exists.

3. Religions are exclusive. If I believe in Jesus, I am closing the doors to heaven from Judiasm and Islam and Hinduism. Even if there was a Christian God, is He the Mormon version, Amish or Catholic version? Even if I get closer, am I suppose to obey the 10 commandments to go to Heaven? Get Baptised? Go to confessional?

4. You lose integrity by pretending to believe something that you really do not believe in.

I think we should all seek the truth and if we are on the right path we should converge in beliefs. That is one of the biggest reasons not to believe in the God of hell. It makes no sense to punish people for being what God made them ... curious and seeking the truth of life.

Quath

 

[Blazin Bones]

It's Pascal's wager. The wager says that atheist have nothing to lose by becoming Christian and they may gain eternal life. So the reward is great for not having to "pay" anything.

Here are the problems:

1. You do have to play. At the very least is your time in church. You also pay with your time in other church activities and tithing.

If you are sincere about your relationship you'll want to do these things. Any one who is married will tell you that the spend so much time together because they love each other. It's the same way with God. If you truly love him these thing aren't an issue. Also, when you truly serve the Father he blesses you for the time you spend with him and the opfferings you give. But you stated that sincereity is an issue for you. That's not a problem with the religion, that's a problem with you.

2. It makes no sense that God is that easily fooled. I have no believe that God exists. I can play act like He does, but I doubt that would fool Him if He realy exists.

Simply said, You can't fool God. If you refuse to except his existence then your dooming your life anyway, except now in your mind you only die once instead of twice. Not much of a bargain in my opinion.

3. Religions are exclusive. If I believe in Jesus, I am closing the doors to heaven from Judiasm and Islam and Hinduism. Even if there was a Christian God, is He the Mormon version, Amish or Catholic version? Even if I get closer, am I suppose to obey the 10 commandments to go to Heaven? Get Baptised? Go to confessional?

You are right in a sense. Religions are exclusive in the sense that there is only one way to get to heaven, or the higher state of that particular religion. This is 100% true, each religion has a specific way to receive eternal life. Atheist don't have a hope of any thing, except a life of anywhere from 1 to 120 years.

As to the true way to heaven, It's the Christian's Christ. Christianity the only religion in which God, Jesus the Son, became man. For me that in itself is a strong reason to except the Salvation of Jesus Christ.

4. You lose integrity by pretending to believe something that you really do not believe in.

As I said before, this is not a problem in the Religion, it's a problem with you.

I think we should all seek the truth and if we are on the right path we should converge in beliefs. That is one of the biggest reasons not to believe in the God of hell. It makes no sense to punish people for being what God made them ... curious and seeking the truth of life.

This wordly, universalism WILL be what condemns many to the second death. You still have the right to choose your own path, that doesn't make it any more right just because you say it is. In the end One God will stand victorious, above all else. I know this God will be Jahweh.

Quath, God has allowed you to come into great knowledge, but I fear that is what hinders so many. I know that atheist hate this word, but it all boils down to faith. You have faith in yourself because you only believe what you see. That, in fact, is not faith at all. I have faith in what I can't see, GOD. I've felt his hand in my life, and heard his voice guiding me. You have heard him as well, that is why you came to these Christian forums to express yourself, instead of just speaking with those you know. The only problem is that you have no faith.

 

[Vic C.]

It's Pascal's wager. The wager says that atheist have nothing to lose by becoming Christian and they may gain eternal life. So the reward is great for not having to "pay" anything.

Here are the problems:

1. You do have to play. At the very least is your time in church. You also pay with your time in other church activities and tithing.

Niether one has ever been a prerequisite for Faith.

2. It makes no sense that God is that easily fooled. I have no believe that God exists. I can play act like He does, but I doubt that would fool Him if He realy exists.

Can't argue there.

3. Religions are exclusive. If I believe in Jesus, I am closing the doors to heaven from Judiasm and Islam and Hinduism. Even if there was a Christian God, is He the Mormon version, Amish or Catholic version? Even if I get closer, am I suppose to obey the 10 commandments to go to Heaven? Get Baptised? Go to confessional?

None of us have the ability to neither open nor close doors. Only God can to that. We cannot close doors He has opened nor can we open doors that He has shut. Jesus says He is the way, the Truth and the Life. He also says that no one can come to the Father, but by Him. These are not the words of Man, but is the Word of God.

Jesus says if you love Him, keep His commandments. But as you have seen Scott, there is debate as to exactly what those commandments are. Same with Baptism, although almost every Christian denomination views this act as being an ordinance of the Lord's. Also, there is no specific comandment that one must "Go to confessional", though we are commanded to confess our faults before men and belore one another. Confession may also be done through prayer; NOT like this...

Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

but rather like this...

Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

4. You lose integrity by pretending to believe something that you really do not believe in.

My friend, you lose MORE than your integrety.

I think we should all seek the truth and if we are on the right path we should converge in beliefs. That is one of the biggest reasons not to believe in the God of hell. It makes no sense to punish people for being what God made them ... curious and seeking the truth of life.

There IS no command to "converge in beliefs". That is Human Secular reasoning.

Prov 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Prov 16:2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.

Quath

 

[evanman]

I see no difference between religion and atheism--both are false, although atheists may be more honest that some religious folks.

There are many practical atheists in the churches that lead religious lives, yet they live as if God didn't exist at all.

 

[Featherbop]

Well atheism loses on several grounds. Logic, reason, numbers, usefulness, etc.

IMO, many people go atheist becasue they are hopeless with their own life. Some, I think, because they don't like the "God idea". And only a very few I beleive, becasue they think it is really correct and logical.

God could not be fooled by a pretender, how ludicrous. Going to church and taking and practicing a religion doesn't get you heaven.

Faith and reason go together like Peanut butter and jelly. I've seen so many times, atheists proclaim the foolishness of beleiving in God, but they never give a why, or even an unbiased answer.

So, atheism? A losing beleif. It takes so much good away, is what...I see.

 

[evanman]

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

God prefers a stone cold atheist to a tepid "christian" any day!

Hypocricy makes Him puke!

Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

 

[ThinkerMan]

Atheist don't have a hope of any thing, except a life of anywhere from 1 to 120 years.

Well to us, that is everything. All our hopes and desires for a good life can only be manifested in those 1-120 years.

I do not see this as a lack of hope simply because eternity does not play a role. Eternity to me seems a "grass is greener" excuse for the rotton things that happen in life.

I certainly can see how eternity in bliss would be a good thing, however I see not reason to believe in it. Secondly, I don't want to screw up this one life I do have to pursue only the hope of a second.

I know that atheist hate this word, but it all boils down to faith. You have faith in yourself because you only believe what you see. That, in fact, is not faith at all. I have faith in what I can't see, GOD. I've felt his hand in my life, and heard his voice guiding me.

Well then that's not faith, is it? Since you claim to have personal proof of God, you are not relying on faith.

I have asked, (and I know Quath has, from previous posts) for similar "proof" or revelation. Nothing, zip, zilch, nada.

Maybe God wants to condemn me, maybe he's waiting for the right time. If that's the case, then so be it.

However, to date there has been no such personal experience for me, and the external data (i.e. the bible) I find severely lacking.

Thus, you have not faith, you have personal proof. Or at least you believe you do.

 

[Blazin Bones]

You may be right in a sense, ThinkerMan. The question you should have asked is whether or not I'm actually sane, to make such a claim. I still have not seen GOD face to face, and that's where I've learned to have faith, unless I'm insane.

Have you ever witnessed Death of Birth? If so, you've witnessed a work of God. As I said It's not His problem, it's yours. You chose to let the fact that God has given man a method to show how life begins, be your reason to believe he doesn't exist or show himself to you. If you would choose to find a deeper relationship with the Father or the Son, you would be able to see The Master at work. God's Blessings, Brutus.

 

[ThinkerMan]

You may be right in a sense, ThinkerMan. The question you should have asked is whether or not I'm actually sane, to make such a claim. I still have not seen GOD face to face, and that's where I've learned to have faith, unless I'm insane.

No, I do not think sanity is the question here. Its simply how one interprets experiences.

Dreams, sensations, sense, etc may serve to solidify your faith, and you interpret them in that fashion. I may interpret them differently, by not affixing supernatural causes for them.

I don't discount that you have faith, but it is based at least in part on some evidences for you. Blind faith would be utter insanity, I agree.

Have you ever witnessed Death of Birth?

The death of birth? No...please explain.

If you would choose to find a deeper relationship with the Father or the Son, you would be able to see The Master at work.

So to believe in God, I have to believe in him first?

I was christian for 2/3 of my life (not counting the first five and the last five years of my life). I never saw anything supernatural at work, and believe me, I was looking.

If you don't believe me, then God will if he exists...I know how I felt, then he should too.

 

[Quath]

I do not see this as a lack of hope simply because eternity does not play a role. Eternity to me seems a "grass is greener" excuse for the rotton things that happen in life.

ThinkerMan pretty much echoes what I think and believe as well, so I won't repeat. I just wanted to comment on this.

As I fell away from Christianity, I went from a feeling that I would live forever to knowing I have a limited time of existance. It was a sad realization. But I started to make the best of it. And I found new happiness in knowing my life is short and it should be a good one.

But I took a look at an eternity of existance and realize that it looked scary. Here are a few of the stuff I saw:

1. Could you be happy in heaven if your loved ones were in hell?

2. Would you get bored? Imagine singing "Jesus Loves You" for the billionth time. And realizing you have not even begun eternity yet. Would you be tired of this song?

3. Could I sin? If not, then I have lost free will. If so, then it should be like Earth.

4. Heaven sounds like hell if I live a long life where boredom would set in. (I know endless existance would turn boing at some point for me.) So for heaven to work, I have to be modified. So maybe my boredom is taken away. Maybe my free will and desire to sin. Maybe I wake up every day forgetting the previous day and all my loved ones. Any way I look at it, it would not be me in heaven.

So in a sense, existing for all of eternity is really a detraction from Christianity.

Quath

 

[Vic C.]

Hey Quath...that may sound deep to some, but to me it sounds like you are still thinking inside this box we humans have created for ourselves. It's thinking within this linear timeline we live in. Stop trying to contemplate infinity...it may wind up depressing you. Instead, accept it and embrace it. Heaven to us right now is inconceivable and incomprehendable.

Resistance is futile! :robot: :

 

[Featherbop]

I do not see this as a lack of hope simply because eternity does not play a role. Eternity to me seems a "grass is greener" excuse for the rotton things that happen in life.

ThinkerMan pretty much echoes what I think and believe as well, so I won't repeat. I just wanted to comment on this.

As I fell away from Christianity, I went from a feeling that I would live forever to knowing I have a limited time of existance. It was a sad realization. But I started to make the best of it. And I found new happiness in knowing my life is short and it should be a good one.

But I took a look at an eternity of existance and realize that it looked scary. Here are a few of the stuff I saw:

1. Could you be happy in heaven if your loved ones were in hell?

2. Would you get bored? Imagine singing "Jesus Loves You" for the billionth time. And realizing you have not even begun eternity yet. Would you be tired of this song?

3. Could I sin? If not, then I have lost free will. If so, then it should be like Earth.

4. Heaven sounds like hell if I live a long life where boredom would set in. (I know endless existance would turn boing at some point for me.) So for heaven to work, I have to be modified. So maybe my boredom is taken away. Maybe my free will and desire to sin. Maybe I wake up every day forgetting the previous day and all my loved ones. Any way I look at it, it would not be me in heaven.

So in a sense, existing for all of eternity is really a detraction from Christianity.

Quath

That sounds like....reverse wishful thinking. You don't beleive in something because it might have things happen that you don't like?

but, I also think that you "reverse wishful thinking" is based on several misconceptions. IMO.

 

[Blazin Bones]

The death of birth? No...please explain.

Typo. I meant to say death Or birth.

 

[Blazin Bones]

I was christian for 2/3 of my life (not counting the first five and the last five years of my life). I never saw anything supernatural at work, and believe me, I was looking.

If you don't believe me, then God will if he exists...I know how I felt, then he should too.

I don't know If you've ever answered this question or not, but what made you leave the faith, If you do not feel like discussing that with us in the open I understand.

ThinkerMan, I'm afraid the world may have confused you as it does to everyone, Christians and Non-Christians alike. The supernatural can be as simple as getting a grade on a test that You asked God to help you with. 8-)

 

[Heidi]

"For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul"? How can doing worldly deeds keep you out of the world? The world is the world. heaven is heaven. All religions except Christianity say that you can get to heaven by doing worldly deeds. Only union with Christ can give us the mind, body, and spirit of God. Otherwise, God's a vague mist that lies somewhere out there that we HOPE exists, but do not know him. Heaven IS union with Christ forever! Without the mind, body, and spirit of Christ in us, we are trapped in our human mind forever and can never get out. That is why Jesus is the ONLY way to God. All the leaders of other religions were self-admitted ordinary men like psychologists who do not have the power from God to give to us. They, like us are just as trapped in their human minds and can only pass on human information. Jesus Christ is the only bridge to God because He had both a human mind and the mind of God which he gives to us if we ask him. Therefore, without him, we can NEVER know God.

 

[ThinkerMan]

I was christian for 2/3 of my life (not counting the first five and the last five years of my life). I never saw anything supernatural at work, and believe me, I was looking.

If you don't believe me, then God will if he exists...I know how I felt, then he should too.

I don't know If you've ever answered this question or not, but what made you leave the faith, If you do not feel like discussing that with us in the open I understand.

I don't mind sharing it.

I was raised Catholic (I know, red flags going off in a number of places, but bear with me), with various family members and friends of different other Christian demoninations.

Though I realize most Catholics, particularly younger ones, are not well educated in the bible, I was. I studied it, read it, and thought I understood it well. I was a happy Christian, who prayed every night and said grace at every meal.

About 5-6 years ago, I realized that it was stupid to be a Catholic/Christian if I didn't fully understand the alternatives...so I started investigating other faiths. I read up on Mormonism, Islam and all the others.

I immediately (probably like all others here) found them false. Their foundations were weak and their theologies unreasonable. No brainer, right? I'm sure you would agree.

Then I turned the same objectivism towards my own faith. I read up on and talked with people of various demoninations, and learned more about the bible in the process then I had previously known. When looking at the historicity and theology of Christianity, I found it similarly false to the others I looked at.

In a sense, it boils down to that famous quote....paraphrased here....you and I are both atheists, only you believe in one more God than I do.

I simply found the evidence for the historicity of the bible lacking (an entirely different discussion) and the theology contradicting and illogical.

Anyway, that is my story...and for the last 5 years I have been a happy atheist. One would probably think that I immediately ran out and became a porn star hooked on crack and beating little kids....but actually I think I am much more moral now than I ever was as a Christian...simply because I don't believe in a "get out of jail" card anymore.

I only have this one simple life and a few decades with my beautiful wife...so I enjoy them as much as I can and try to allow others to enjoy theirs.

ThinkerMan, I'm afraid the world may have confused you as it does to everyone, Christians and Non-Christians alike. The supernatural can be as simple as getting a grade on a test that You asked God to help you with. 8-)

Why would God give me a A on my test (when I was the one who studied for it???) and at the same time a little girl gets ganged raped or blown up by a bomb at church?

Sure, God may have his reasons, as many like to say.

However, Christians don't live any longer than non-christians. I have yet to see any correlation between prayer and better results in life.

All things happen in probabilities (even grades are a distribution, especially if graded on a curve). I see no influence or reason for influence from a deity to make those probabilities change as a result of prayer.

 

[Blazin Bones]

ThinkerMan, I bet you've already read these books, but I'll mention them anyway. Lee Strobel has a series of books called the case for Chirst, Faith, Creation, and Creator. Four books all starting with the words case for. Historicity can often be a cause of doubt. You and I both know that there are somethings we as Humans will not understand about God, All I can do is encourage you to not give up in you quest to find God. He's there, sometimes he's just harder to find. God's Blessings to all, Brutus.

 

[Quath]

ThinkerMan, I bet you've already read these books, but I'll mention them anyway. Lee Strobel has a series of books called the case for Chirst, Faith, Creation, and Creator. Four books all starting with the words case for. Historicity can often be a cause of doubt. You and I both know that there are somethings we as Humans will not understand about God, All I can do is encourage you to not give up in you quest to find God. He's there, sometimes he's just harder to find. God's Blessings to all, Brutus.

I read the Case for Christ and found it problematic. Ater reading that book and looking up stuff, I went from thinking Jesus was historical to thinking he was completely made up.

However, on the off chance Jesus was a real person, it means nothing. Look at how many people saw Elvis arise from the dead and haunt burger joints or appear in crowds. Look at how many people say that Allah helped them cure an illness. There are many people that believe that have met the Greek gods. So I have serious doubts to trust people when it comes to reporting urban legends.

If Jesus was suppose to be evidence, God really messed up. The first book of the Bible is based on Paul's friend. Paul never saw Jesus and neither did his friend. The next 2 books are based on this so they must also have never seen Jesus. You have to wait 60 years for John to report seeing Jesus (and it seems to make more sense that this book was not written by John of the Bible.) So The most important event of human history according to Christianity, and it is almost lost and only remembered by a few people.

It just makes no sense.

Quath

 

[Vic C.]

Here is that 'message of the cross" found in 1 Cor. 1:18. :-?

Er, Quath, the first book of the Bible is Genesis, the second is Exodus followed by Leviticus.