[_ Old Earth _] Atheist Darwinism vs the Bible "for Christians"

[BobRyan]

In this thread - I would like to limit the discussion to debates between Christians.

If you are a Christian following the docrines of darwinism - fine this thread is for you please participate along with the Bible believing Christians.

However if your position is that the Bible is false and the Gospel false -- this thread is not going to consider that as an option (At least for as long as possible).

1. IF God did what the Bible says He did (God made "the car" and Romans 1 says "The invisible attributes of God are CLEARLY SEEN through those things that have been MADE") -- then why do we have Christians on this board objecting to that very thing??

2. If we consider "exegesis" to be the valid form of Bible interpretation -- can the Bible "Be bent" to convey the doctrines of atheist darwinism without destroying all adherance to exegesis?

3. Does the Gospel NEED Genesis to be true according "to the text"?? Does the Gospel need accuracy in the detail about "the fall of man"? -- or "God our Creator"? or is that "optional"??

4. When fellow Christians in the areas of science testify that they are being censored and persecuted for even admitting to the most basic aspects of what God did in nature -- should Christians "run them down" as the "Default position"?

What say you?

God "painted the Picaso called LIFE" but not so's you could tell that there is any intelligence put into it??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Rick W]

"If you are a Christian following the docrines of darwinism"

Do you mean as in Theistic Evolutionist? TE for short.

 

[Deep Thought]

Even though your questions are very loaded, you should at least define what you mean by Darwinism.

As I'm not a Christian, I'll bow out here.

 

[BobRyan]

Darwinian evolutionism --

Descent with modification taken to such an extreme that one imagines that it will one day show that all life descended from a common ancestor -- single celled organisms giving birth eventually to all complex life forms today among plants and animals via "undirected random events in nature" alone.

"Creation" of all complex life forms via the "Tooth and claw" process of predation, disease, starvation and extinction combined with the ability to adapt to a changing environment in as magical way as you care to imagine as long as no design or intelligence is detectible.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

"If you are a Christian following the docrines of darwinism"

Do you mean as in Theistic Evolutionist? TE for short.

Theistic evolutionists could easily include those who believe in the form of evolutionism sometimes called Intelligent Design and who could be Hindu or Budhist or... (and I.D could even include Jewish agnostic but that is a different topic) but for the sake of simplicity I would like this thread to be confined to those that believe in the actual Bible to the point that they accept the Gospel as "true".

So if they believe in the Gospel - then no matter what the position on "origins" or Darwin -- participation welcomed.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Even though your questions are very loaded, you should at least define what you mean by Darwinism.

As I'm not a Christian, I'll bow out here.

Question for you to help with the context for the discussion.

Richard Dawkins and Dr Provine and arguably the explicitly atheist conclusions of Darwin appear to argue that full acceptance of Darwinism is logically inconsistent with the claims of the Bible -- do you agree?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Deep Thought]

Question for you to help with the context for the discussion.

Richard Dawkins and Dr Provine and arguably the explicitly atheist conclusions of Darwin appear to argue that full acceptance of Darwinism is logically inconsistent with the claims of the Bible -- do you agree.

I don't recall any such claims by Dawkins (not familiar with Provine). Dawkins may well have said that a literal interpretation of the bible is certainly logically inconsistent with the bible.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't recall any such claims by Dawkins (not familiar with Provine). Dawkins may well have said that a literal interpretation of the bible is certainly logically inconsistent with the bible.

I suggest that you allow yourself to watch the movie if you want to "watch him say it". However my actual question is for you personnally. If you have background in the Bible -- (if for example you used to be Christian as Dawkins, Darwin and Provine claim) then is it also your position that it is inconsistent to hold that the Bible is true while also holding that Darwinism is true?

IF on the other hand you have not seriously read the Bible in the various chapters that speak explicitly about origins -- then my question does not apply.

Just curious.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Deep Thought]

I'm not a Christian, but I have read most of the bible (probably a lot more than most Christians). The only way that evolution and the bible are incompatible is if you take the bible literally (which of course, just introduces so many other problems/issues)

 

[BobRyan]

I'm not a Christian, but I have read most of the bible (probably a lot more than most Christians). The only way that evolution and the bible are incompatible is if you take the bible literally (which of course, just introduces so many other problems/issues)

That gets us to "exegesis" vs "eisegesis" in scripture and probably a subject for another thread.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

One has to wonder how many times atheist darwinists ever "express their views" on how we got all life on this planet in the form "FOR IN SIX days the LORD created the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them" Exodus 20:8-11.

I gotta think the objective unbiased reader will notice that the number of times is "zero".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[jwu]

One has to wonder how many times atheist darwinists ever "express their views" on how we got all life on this planet in the form "FOR IN SIX days the LORD created the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them" Exodus 20:8-11.

I gotta think the objective unbiased reader will notice that the number of times is "zero".

Why should an atheist do such a thing in first instance?

 

[BobRyan]

I don't think and atheist would.

I don't think an agnostic would.

But I think there are some Christians that would like to "imagine" that the language of Genesis is how you say "darwinism" in "bible-speak".

Sad but true I am afraid.

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The Expelled thread has a comment about Christians that embrace atheist darwinism needing to "stand up" and speak out and say something substantive something "instructive" to the unbiased objective reader.

Kind of makes you wonder if that will happen

 

[Barbarian]

Considering that Stein banned Christians who accept evolution from his movie (apparently "No intelligence allowed" is strictly enforced), it seems odd that he'd even want to acknowledge them.

 

[BobRyan]

I saw "a lot of atheists" on Expelled that endorsed atheist darwinism and explained the atheist foundations of it -- Dawkins, Provine and Meyers come to mind.

This is probably "embarrassing" to Christians who sold out for the atheist darwinism that led Darwin to reject Christianity and led Dawkins to reject Christianity and lead Provine to the same conclusion.

I would think that those Christians who sold out in favor of atheist darwinist dogma would "complain" - but would they open their minds to the point of letting themselves SEE the movie that they want to whine about? I doubt it.

Bob

 

[Patashu]

Okay, so we have people who study evolution and are christian, and people who study evolution and are not christian. What does this tell us? Maybe that the theory of evolution and acceptance/utilization thereof is religion-neutral at its core?

You can't sweep ALL the theistic evolutionary biologists under the carpet by claiming they are ALL deluded/mislead somehow. Religious worldviews and ideas of faith are independent from science simply because they do not have to be subject to scientific scrutiny.

 

[BobRyan]

It tells us that "some christians" are so compromised when it comes to the Bible, logic and reason that NOT ONLY do atheist Darwinists like Provine and Dawkins see their blunder clearly -- but SO ALSO do all bible believing Christians.

Not a good spot to be in .

Bob

 

[Barbarian]

Bob's a little touchy about the subject, since he learned that Genesis directly rules out the "life ex nihilo" doctrine of YE creationism.

It irritates him when the orthodox Christians remind him that he won't accept God's Word.

 

[Free]

Genesis directly rules out the "life ex nihilo" doctrine of YE creationism.

And how does it do this?


If Genesis is not taken literally, it undermines the rest of Scripture. People who don't believe in a literal Genesis but claim to believe in orthodox Christianity, have never taken their view of Genesis to it's logical conclusions.