[_ Old Earth _] Atheist Darwinism vs the Bible "for Christians"

[Barbarian]

The Bible says "GOD made" it says "GOD created" it never says "Ground MADE" nor "Ground Created"

God says the earth and waters brought forth life. You don't like it, but that's what He said.

In 6 REAL "Evenings and Mornings"

Some Christians think so, but it's a recent adjustment; St. Augustine showed in his analysis that it couldn't be so. And his view was accepted by almost all Christians of the time. Six literal days was never Christian orthodoxy.

God's word conflicts with the new doctrine of "life ex nihilo;" God says that He created living things not from nothing, but from the earth and waters. Let God be God, and let Him be the judge of how creation should proceed.

 

[Barbarian]

(Barbarian notes that Augustine's argument for figurative days was accepted by most Christians)

High regard does not indicate truth.

True. It just shows that six literal days is not the Christian position.

I can't paste from that source but if you look at page 106, paragraph 6, he plainly says that "God therefore, accomplished the works of His creation in six days, a perfect number of days."

And he also says that they are not literal days, but figurative.

These seven days of our time, although like the seven
days of creation in name and in numbering, follow
one another in succession and mark off the division
of time, but those first six days occurred in a form
unfamiliar to us as intrinsic principles within things
created. Hence evening and morning … did not
produce the changes that they do for us with the
motion of the sun. This we are certainly forced to
admit with regard to the first three days, which are
recorded and numbered before the creation of the
heavenly bodies.
Saint Augustine, Literal Meaning

I submit that God uses all of the Bible to describe Himself.

Barbarian observes:
God is not nature. Pantheism is not a Christian belief. When He describes the earth bringing forth animals, it is not Him, but rather nature as His tool.

Non-sequiter. We are not discussing pantheism.

You are, if you assert that God uses all of the Bible to describe Himself. He often describes things that are not Himself.

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Why did He not say "Let nature bring..."?

Probably because there was no word like "nature" for Hebrews at the time. But they understood.

It sure would have cleared up some of the confusion.

For most Christians, we see no confusion.

You are saying (and it is plain to us who are reading what you write) that God didn't do what He said He did, the way He said He did it.

Barbarian observes:
I showed you that He said it very plainly in Genesis.

No. You didn't.

It's very plain. He says that the earth and waters brought forth living things. No point in denying it.

Barbarian observes:
You brought up the issue of what was necessary to be saved.

No. I didn't.

Let's take a look...

Believing that He exists is not enough.

I asked if you can know God and deny the words He uses to describe Himself. You have refused to answer (repeatedly).

I showed you in Scripture and in the Apostle's Creed Who God is, and how you can know Him. If you won't believe Scripture, what more can I do. I think it's time you told us; do you accept the Creed, or do you not? And if not, Who do you think God is?

Barbarian observes:
After Jesus came, the Apostles made a creed by which Christians would know who was a Christian, and what the beliefs of Christians were:

The "Apostles Creed" was written long after the apostles died. They had nothing to do with it. You are correct in that it was used as an ID card of sorts to identify believers.

And it is still used by us to know who we are. Again, do you accept it as true, or do you not? And if not, Who do you think He is?

 

[DavidLee]

God is not nature. Pantheism is not a Christian belief. When He describes the earth bringing forth animals, it is not Him, but rather nature as His tool.

Non-sequiter. We are not discussing pantheism.

You are, if you assert that God uses all of the Bible to describe Himself. He often describes things that are not Himself. (Emphasis is David Lee's)

This is your response?
I had hoped for something more.

 

[Barbarian]

Since you've declined to say whether or not you accept the Apostle's Creed, I'm guessing there's something about traditional Christianity that bothers you. But you seem a bit reluctant to tell us what it is.

I'm guessing it's more than Genesis that gives you some pause.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
As Barbarian learned here -
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=31943&p=389512#p389503

The Bible says "GOD made" it says "GOD created" it never says "Ground MADE" nor "Ground Created" NOR does it say "Ground EVOLVED into animal" NOR does it say "Ground evolved into cells then cells MADE fish then fish MADE reptiles then reptiles MADE birds then..."

The entire mythology of atheist darwinism is MISSING from the Bible account.

Darwin "noticed"
Dawkins "noticed"
Provine "noticed"
ALL Bible believing Christians "notice" the texts that speak to God MAKING ---God CREATING via the process "HE SPOKE at it WAS".

In 6 REAL "Evenings and Mornings"

God says the earth and waters brought forth life.

God said that HE CAUSED life by CREATING it "He spoke and IT WAS" - he says that HE SPOKE and that he FORMED man out of the dust -- He did not say "dust became cell, cell made plant, plant made fish, fish made reptile ... made man".

Your eisegesis on that point has already been exposed to the readers of this thread.

click on the link -- then read.

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

[
God's word conflicts with the new doctrine of "life ex nihilo;"

No text.

How "unsurprising".

the six day creation week for ALL life on earth was already shown to you IN the text of God's Word.

Click
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=31943&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30#p389503

Then Read.

Atheist Darwinist Provine himself admits to the 6 day creation -- 6000 years ago as the standard bible orthodoxy from a historic POV --

click
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=31943&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15#p389417

Then read.

Bob

 

[Barbarian]

The Barbarian wrote:
God says the earth and waters brought forth life.

God said that HE CAUSED life by CREATING it ""

Not in the Christian Bible; He was more explicit than that:

Genesis 1:24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.


You changed it, because you don't want to accept the way He did it. But that's what He did.

Your eisegesis on that point has already been exposed to the readers of this thread.

Bob, everyone who bothers to read Genesis knows that you changed it to suit yourself. That is what, if you don't know, "eisegesis" means. I posted God's word, and you posted your own ideas, and presented them as God's.


And Bob, what atheists think of Scripture is of little interest to me. They might be authoritative to you, but then that's probably what got you to deny God's word in the first place.

 

[BobRyan]

The Barbarian wrote:
God says the earth and waters brought forth life.

God said that HE CAUSED life by CREATING it ""

Not in the Christian Bible;

Oh GOOD ---- interest in the Bible --

Here it is!!

Barbarian - engaged in "Bible avoidance" as his "solution" to this problem

Barbarian -

God is not nature. Pantheism is not a Christian belief. When He describes the earth bringing forth animals, it is not Him, but rather nature as His tool.

As Barbarian already learned in this post --
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=31943&p=389503#p389454

"FOR in SIX DAYS the LORD MADE the heavens and the earth the sea and aLL that is in them" Exodus 20:8-11

[quoteaee2]
Ex 20
8 ""Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "" Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "" For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Yet Barbarian COUNTERS the Bible with "it is NOT HIM bringing forth animals"

How sad that Barbarian uses such transparently flawed arguments.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Col 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

More "Bible" to be avoided by Barbarian -- skipping over the underlined and highlighted -- Barbarian seeks to "insert" the Barbarian-Christian idea of "God who did NOT MAKE" ... "God who did NOT CREATE"

Gen 1
20 Then God said, ""Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.''
21 God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
22 God blessed them, saying, ""Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.''
23 There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

24 Then God said, ""Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind''; and it was so.
25 God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, ""Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.''
27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "" Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.''
29 Then God said, ""Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;
30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food''; and it was so.
31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day

HOW did God "create"? How did He "MAKE" in each of those "evening and Morning" segments?

HE SPOKE it into existence!

[quoteaee2]Ps 33
6By the word of the LORD the heavens were made,
And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
7He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap;
He lays up the deeps in storehouses.
8Let all the earth fear the LORD;
Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.
9For He spoke, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast.

[/quoteaee2][/quoteaee2]

And thanks again for brining it up...

 

[Barbarian]

I notice that your verse doesn't say what you claim it does. It merely says God created everything. But this doesn't change what God says about the way He created life:

Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Bob is willing to admit that God created life, but Bob isn't willing to let Him do it His way. God did not create life ex nihilo; He used nature to produce life. The land and water brought forth living things as He commanded.

(Bob objects to Barbarian's rejection of pantheism)

Barbarian observes:
God is not nature. Pantheism is not a Christian belief. When He describes the earth bringing forth animals, it is not Him, but rather nature as His tool. God is not the earth.

Bob writes:
Yet Barbarian COUNTERS the Bible with "it is NOT HIM bringing forth animals"

Sorry Bob, pantheism is not compatible with Christianity. The Earth is not God. Creation is not the Creator.

 

[KenEOTE]

I think I am leaning towards Panspermia. I prefer to think some alien came to earth and did something to the water.

 

[BobRyan]

I will be going with the Bible on this one ---

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=31943&start=45#p389834

None of that barbarian kind of Bible-wrench for me.

God SAID "He commanded" and "IT WAS" - so I believe him.

(And besides -- I can click that link and "read") ;-)

Bob

 

[VaultZero4Me]

22 God blessed them, saying, ""Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.''

What about birds that are going extinct? Did the Dodo disobey this command?

More tongue in cheek but brings up this question,

Why do animals die? Why do plants die? Why do both get disease? Why do they have mutations?

In other words, since man sinned, why does every other life form suffer from the same punishment that we do? Why is there no difference in what we have to face and do to live versus them?

In fact, we are better off because we have the brain power to cure disease, and also not be driven by the need to hunt for food on a daily basis.

Is there any theology to answer these questions?

 

[freeway]

22 God blessed them, saying, ""Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.''

What about birds that are going extinct? Did the Dodo disobey this command?

More tongue in cheek but brings up this question,

Why do animals die? Why do plants die? Why do both get disease? Why do they have mutations?

In other words, since man sinned, why does every other life form suffer from the same punishment that we do? Why is there no difference in what we have to face and do to live versus them?

In fact, we are better off because we have the brain power to cure disease, and also not be driven by the need to hunt for food on a daily basis.

Is there any theology to answer these questions?

It all goes back to Genesis. The fall of man (sin) brought into the world death and decay, form that time on things have been getting worse, Genesis 3:16- 17 God said the ground was cursed because of Adam.. meaning all thing that grow, so sin had ill affect on all life...

 

[Barbarian]

Bob writes:

I will be going with the Bible on this one ---

Except the part where God tells him that the earth and waters brought forth life. He won't accept that, because it contradicts his belief in "life ex nihilo." I guess he thinks God is just kidding us there.

None of that barbarian kind of Bible-wrench for me.

Heh, Bob is the classic cafeteria Christian. He believes the parts he likes, and rejects the parts he doesn't.

God SAID "He commanded" and "IT WAS" - so I believe him.

You just don't believe the way He says He did it.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
God SAID "He commanded" and "IT WAS" - so I believe him.

You just don't believe the way He says He did it.

Hmmm "the WAY He says HE did it" - IN SIX actual days!! you actually want to LOOK at Bible texts that speak to that point?

Oh GOOD! me too!

I was thinking that you did NOT want to LOOK at the text... but now you do! Great!


As Barbarian already learned in this post --
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=31943&p=389503#p389454

"FOR in SIX DAYS the LORD MADE the heavens and the earth the sea and aLL that is in them" Exodus 20:8-11

Ex 20
8 ""Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "" Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "" For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Yet Barbarian COUNTERS the Bible with "it is NOT HIM" bringing forth animals or mankind in six actual days the way the Bible says. Barbarian either imagines that "Dirt did it in six days" or that "we should not trust the Bible" ... how sad ... good thing Barbarian is NOW interested in what the text says!

So "scripture it IS"

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Col 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

More "Bible" to be avoided by Barbarian -- skipping over the underlined and highlighted -- Barbarian seeks to "insert" the Barbarian-Christian idea of "God who did NOT MAKE" ... "God who did NOT CREATE"

Gen 1
20 Then God said, ""Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.''
21 God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
22 God blessed them, saying, ""Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.''
23 There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

24 Then God said, ""Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind''; and it was so.
25 God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, ""Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.''
27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; [male and female He created them.

28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "" Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.''
29 Then God said, ""Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;
30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food''; and it was so.
31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day

HOW did God "create"? How did He "MAKE" in each of those "evening and Morning" segments?

HE SPOKE it into existence!

[quote:22be8]Ps 33
6By the word of the LORD the heavens were made,
And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
7He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap;
He lays up the deeps in storehouses.
8Let all the earth fear the LORD;
Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.
9For He spoke, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast.

[/quote:22be8][/quote]

And thanks again for brining it up...

 

[BobRyan]

Funny thing about this is - that atheist darwinist devotees typically get stuck trying to bend and wrench one half of one verse in the model of pure eisegesis when it comes to this subject -- while Bible believing Christians are always appealing to FULL CONTEXT and ALL DETAILS in a broad acceptance of scripture -- so true of good exegetical approaches.

As you might expect the result is that most atheist darwinist devotees simply become embarrassed and flee from this kind of Bible-vs- "Darwin myths" discussion but thankfully a "tiny few" (like Barbarian) imagine to themselves that it actually HELPS their case to expose this flaw in their dealings with scripture.

Again - you can not PAY to get that kind of help from atheist darwinist believers these days!

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed[/b], and all their hosts.
2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.[/b]

Though this text is NEVER the way that atheist darwinists religionists declare their firm belief in how LIFE came about ... and it is not the way any Barbarian Christian devotees to atheist darwinist orthodoxy ever express THEIR belief in how everything came about IN SIX days... yet IT IS what we find in scripture!

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader!

Bob

 

[Barbarian]

Bob, the ultimate "cafeteria Christian." If he doesn't like something in the Bible, he just denies it, and quote-mines from different parts to get the message he wants.

I accept all of it, Bob. That's what you're supposed to do as a Christian. And you're just going to have to come to terms with the fact that Genesis rules out "life ex nihilo."

"Six actual days" is, of course, your alteration of Scripture to make it more acceptable to you. God says "days" and does not make it clear what they symbolize. But it has never been Christian orthodoxy that they were literal 24 hour days.

St. Augustine, over a thousand years ago, noted that the language of Genesis itself made it clear that they could not be so. And he is perhaps the most influential theologian in Christianity.

 

[BobRyan]

In response to the OP and Title of thread -- I post

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=31943&p=390239#p389934

And

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=31943&p=390239#p389938


Then innexplicably you posted that text above this one -- your "Augustine - only" post (maybe you were thinking this was your solution to the problem of "exegesis"??)


Is it possible that for you -- my reference to the Word of God (the actual BIBLE as is being reference by the title and OP) is being spun around in your mind as a reference to a text that you consider to be "no more valid than Augustine"?

Since that seems to be your underlying point -- maybe a thread that discusses the difference between Augstine and the actual Bible would be of benefit to you. Are you thinking THIS is that thread?

(Or maybe this is a habit of using the fallacy of equivocation that you are trying to shake?)

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Exodus 20:8-11

Ex 20
8 ""Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "" Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "" For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

"Six actual days" is, of course, your alteration of Scripture .

"Exegete the text" Barbarian --- simply "making stuff up" is not carrying your point forward at ALL.
(Though it is the usual "stories easy enough to make up" it is not exegesis.)

Meanwhile we all SEE "IN the Text" that the term for yom and the quantified form "SIX DAYS" is used with exact equality in the Exodus 20 SUMMARY of the Gen 1-2:4 "EVENT" applying the SAMe term to those at Sinai without ANY doubt as to What "SIX days" MEANS (hint: Our 7 day week).

Bob