[_ Old Earth _] Atheist Darwinism vs the Bible "for Christians"

[Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Genesis directly rules out the "life ex nihilo" doctrine of YE creationism.

And how does it do this?

God says that the earth brought forth living things. Something scientists are just beginning to confirm.

Genesis 1:24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Life, says God, was not created ex nihilo, but rather was done by the agency of nature. That's how God does almost everything in this world.

If Genesis is not taken literally, it undermines the rest of Scripture.

Parables and allegory do not undermine Scripture. Otherwise Jesus is undermining Scripture. And He said He would not do that.

People who don't believe in a literal Genesis but claim to believe in orthodox Christianity, have never taken their view of Genesis to it's logical conclusions.

It was never the Christian consensus that Genesis was literal history. Some have from time to time thought so, but they do not speak for the majority of us.

Fortunately, it is not a salvation issue.

 

[DavidLee]

Barbarian observes:
Genesis directly rules out the "life ex nihilo" doctrine of YE creationism.

And how does it do this?

God says that the earth brought forth living things. Something scientists are just beginning to confirm.

Genesis 1:24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Allow me to offer:
“Then God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.†God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.â€Â
(Genesis 1:20-21 NASB)

Life, says God, was not created ex nihilo, but rather was done by the agency of nature. That's how God does almost everything in this world.

Not true. And certainly not proven by Gen 1:24.

“The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.â€Â
(Genesis 1:2 NASB)

So we have nothing (for all intents and purposes) almost by the very definition. And then a few days later:

“Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.â€Â
(Genesis 2:1-2 NASB)

As I read this, I see that everything was created (in a short period of time) together.

If Genesis is not taken literally, it undermines the rest of Scripture.

Parables and allegory do not undermine Scripture. Otherwise Jesus is undermining Scripture. And He said He would not do that.

People who don't believe in a literal Genesis but claim to believe in orthodox Christianity, have never taken their view of Genesis to it's logical conclusions.

It was never the Christian consensus that Genesis was literal history. Some have from time to time thought so, but they do not speak for the majority of us.

It has always been (until the last two hundred years) the consensus that the Old Testament is literal.
Please stop referring to "us" and speak for yourself. You seem to allude to some majority as if the majority is correct because of it supposed size. Truth is not determined by the number who believe but by the one who speaks. Either God is a liar and intends to mislead us, or the Old Testament (including Genesis) is correct.

“in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,â€Â
(Titus 1:2 NASB) (Emphasis is mine)

I think I'll put my money on God. I'll go one further and say that if the Bible is wrong, we are all lost.

Fortunately, it is not a salvation issue.

You keep saying that... Can one know God and deny the very words He uses to describe Himself?
Do you think that any truth can be illustrated with a lie by one who cannot lie?
Who do you say that He is?
Believing that He exists is not enough.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob's a little touchy about the subject, since he learned that Genesis directly rules out the "life ex nihilo" doctrine of YE creationism.

It irritates him when the orthodox Christians remind him that he won't accept God's Word.

Again Barbarian - you engage in "pure storytelling" instead of dealing "in facts" why not stick with facts?

On this very board the subject of the Bible vs Darwinism comes up repeatedly AND REPEATEDLY those who pander to the atheist doctrines of darwinism refuse to look at the bible and be engaged, focused and honest about what it is saying.

you would THINK that anyone claiming to be Christian would at least have the integrity of an atheist like Dawkins or Provine or Darwin himself to ADMIT to the obvious glaring fact that the Bible flatly contradicts the atheist principles of darwinism.

Start with Genesis 1 and work your way forward if you like.

but this "bible-avoidance" plus "imaginary history" solution have adopted for the problem specific to the OP is just silly.

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Barbarian observes:
Genesis directly rules out the "life ex nihilo" doctrine of YE creationism.

And how does it do this?

God says that the earth brought forth living things. Something scientists are just beginning to confirm.

Genesis 1:24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Allow me to offer:
“Then God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.†God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.â€Â
(Genesis 1:20-21 NASB)

[quote="The Barbarian":e3910]Life, says God, was not created ex nihilo, but rather was done by the agency of nature. That's how God does almost everything in this world.

Not true. And certainly not proven by Gen 1:24.[/quote:e3910]

As is apparent from that exchange - Barbarian relies on NO exegesis AT ALL in scripture -- in fact he relies explicitly on eisegeting atheist doctrine INTO the text!

His model is "text without context -- pretext".

His model is "less of Bible - more of atheism" whenever he gets into trouble with non-stop story telling.

Your appeals to "inconvenient Bible facts" will not be allowed to "get in the way of a good story" as Barbarian sees it.

However your approach is ideal for the subject of this thread - we need to hold their feet to the fire of "Focus" when the topic is ON the Bible they will frantically seek to run FROM the text and TOWARD "an atheist darwinist story" --

Let's see how long we can get them to focus on "the Bible" as they CLAIM to be following It in their transparent atheist darwinist orthodoxy.

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
People who don't believe in a literal Genesis but claim to believe in orthodox Christianity, have never taken their view of Genesis to it's logical conclusions.

Then Barbarian simply drifts into befuddled attempt at revisionist history.

Barbarian
It was never the Christian consensus that Genesis was literal history. Some have from time to time thought so, but they do not speak for the majority of us.

It has ALWAYS been the Christian concensus that the 6 literal evenings and mornings was "true" rather than blatant atheism. This is why DARWIN came to the point of utter "disbelief" as he saw just how blatantly his darwinian myths and doctrines contradicted scripture. NOT ONCE does he argue in that view "WELL then I will just join that vast majority of Barbarian Christians".

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Charles Darwin -


But I had gradually come by this time, i.e. 1836 to 1839, to see that the Old Testament was no more to be trusted than the sacred books of the Hindus….

By further reflecting… that the more we know of the fixed laws of nature the more incredible do miracle become, - that the men of the time were ignorant and credulous to a degree almost incomprehensible to us,- that the Gospels cannot be proved to have been written simultaneously with the events,- that they differ in many important details…

I gradually came to disbelieve in Christianity as a divine revelation…. But I was very unwilling to give up my belief; I feel sure of this, for I can well remember often and often inventing day-dreams of old letters between distinguished Romans… which confirmed in the most striking manner all that was written in the Gospels. But I found it more and more difficult, with free scope given to my imagination, to invent evidence which would suffice to convince me. Thus disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct.

Darwin (1887) III p. 308

notice Darwin does NOT say "I found ONE form of Christianity less appealing so I simply joined that great majority of Barbarian Christians and CONTINUED believing rather than simply collapsing into utter and complete DISBELIEF"

Dawkins admitted in the movie EXPELLED that this so-called "barbarian Christian" option (Barbarians idea of a large group of Bible-sellout Christians being around for Darwin to continue in THAT "kind" of Christian BELIEF) was never an option for Darwin -

Provine admitted to seeing that point in the movie EXPELLED.

ALL Bible believing Christians see it - very clearly.

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Provine Claims Darwinism has fully coopted science itself and Darwinism IS Atheist – not Christian at all!

First, modern science directly implies that the world is organized strictly in accordance
with mechanistic principles. There are no purposive principles whatsoever
in nature. There are no gods and no designing forces that are rationally
detectable.


Second, modern science directly implies that there are no inherent
moral or ethical laws, no absolute guiding principles for human society…. The
conflict between science and religion is to the extent that persons who manage
to retain religious beliefs while accepting evolutionary biology have to check
their brains at the church-house door.

William Provine, “Evolution and the Foundation of Ethics,†MBL Science 3.1 (1988):
25–29.

This becomes signifcant as we observe Provine's honest statements about history.

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

"Were the famous scientists of long ago young earth creationists?
William Provine; a prominent Darwinist, thinks so. In a recent online review, he complained that a National Academy of Sciences publication on how (devotees should) teach evolution is flawed. He questioned the Academy's decision to cite Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, and Newton as examples of thinkers whose views on physics and astronomy were vindicated because, as be put it:
[quote:12f47]Provine
`Why would the National Academy have chosen this example in a book about evolution when all four were young-earth creationists? Well, prior to about 1750, everyone was, in one sense, a young earth creationist! For example, the Venerable Bede (672?-735) wrote a history of the world, and so did Sir Walter Raleigh. (1554?-1618). Both men began with `Creation,' the origin of the universe, as described in Genesis 1 and 2. They assumed that Creation took place about 6000 years ago. But the two men could hardly have been more different!
Bede was an English monk in the Dark Ages, and Raleigh was a skeptical English adventurer who lived nearly a thousand years later in the Elizabethan Renaissance. Raleigh was rumored to be an atheist, holding forth in taverns, but his religious views had no impact on where he would begin his account of history.
Prior to the development of geology as a scientific discipline in the 18th century, there was no widely accepted source of information about cosmic or human origins apart from the Bible. Raleigh would have to either begin with Genesis, or take the risk of resurrecting an account of origins written by a classical Greek philosopher. But the philosophers' accounts were not science-based; they were simply accounts that were not based on a Christian understanding of the universe. “
(O'Leary, D., "By Design or by Chance?: The Growing Controversy on the Origins of Life in the Universe," 2004, p.129. Emphasis original)

[/quote:12f47]

So much for Barbarian's wild ride into revisionist history where HE claims that the Christian view was bible-denying from day one --

By contrast we find that NOT ONLY do Bible believing Christians see that as a baloney attempt at history -- but even atheist darwinists themselves choke on such fiction!

Bob

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Genesis directly rules out the "life ex nihilo" doctrine of YE creationism.

And how does it do this?

Barbarian observes:
God says that the earth brought forth living things. Something scientists are just beginning to confirm.

Genesis 1:24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.


“Then God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.†God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.â€Â
(Genesis 1:20-21 NASB)

Actually, that's a modern revision. The KJV, using canonical texts, says:

20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

So this too, indicates that God created life by natural means, using existing nature. "Life ex nihilo" is not a Biblical doctrine. It is a modern revision of God's word.

Barbarian observes:
Life, says God, was not created ex nihilo, but rather was done by the agency of nature. That's how God does almost everything in this world.

Not true.

It is if you believe God and His Word.

“The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.â€Â
(Genesis 1:2 NASB)

Yes, the universe was created ex nihilo. But life, as God says in Genesis was created by natural means.

As I read this, I see that everything was created (in a short period of time) together.

First God created the earth and waters, and then the earth and waters brought forth life. A major difference.

If Genesis is not taken literally, it undermines the rest of Scripture.

Barbarian observes:
Parables and allegory do not undermine Scripture. Otherwise Jesus is undermining Scripture. And He said He would not do that.

People who don't believe in a literal Genesis but claim to believe in orthodox Christianity, have never taken their view of Genesis to it's logical conclusions.

Barbarian observes:
It was never the Christian consensus that Genesis was literal history. Some have from time to time thought so, but they do not speak for the majority of us.

It has always been (until the last two hundred years) the consensus that the Old Testament is literal.

No. For example, St. Augustine admitted, after a long attempt to find a way to justify a literal history in Genesis, that it was not so. His opinion was accepted by most Christians at the time, and that has not changed over the millinia.

Please stop referring to "us" and speak for yourself. You seem to allude to some majority as if the majority is correct because of it supposed size.

It is the majority. That doesn't make it right, of course, but most Christians have always acknowledged that Genesis is not literal.

Truth is not determined by the number who believe but by the one who speaks. Either God is a liar and intends to mislead us, or the Old Testament (including Genesis) is correct.

Of course it's true. Some of you just aren't willing to accept it as it is.

I think I'll put my money on God.

Me too. Welcome to our side.

I'll go one further and say that if the Bible is wrong, we are all lost.

Me too.

Barbarian observes:
Fortunately, it is not a salvation issue.

You keep saying that... Can one know God and deny the very words He uses to describe Himself?

I don't think you're denying the words He uses to describe Himself. You're denying the way He said He created life. And you don't go to Hell, just for not approving of the way He did it.

Do you think that any truth can be illustrated with a lie by one who cannot lie?

Nope. That's why I believe Him when He says the Earth and waters brought forth life.

Who do you say that He is?

Learn about it here:

The Nature and Attributes of God
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm

Believing that He exists is not enough.

Indeed. If you want to know how He will determine who spends eternity with him and who will spend it with Satan and his angels, go here:

Matthew 25:31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[DavidLee]

Butchered quotes and bolded text

It's almost as if you don't want anyone to respond to what you write. You strip out all the
[ quote ]Quoted text[ /quote ]
markers that allow one to follow the flow of messages when responding and make it difficult for readers to follow the posts.
I and many others take the time to make sure the quotes come out correctly. Why don't you?

Do you really want to base your argument on differences in translation?

Actually, that's a modern revision. The KJV, using canonical texts, says:

The texts are in Hebrew, not English. I can't paste Hebrew text into this forum (don't know how).

So this too, indicates that God created life by natural means, using existing nature.

You're missing the point. Nothing existed before creation and God finished His work of creation. He then rested.

“Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts.â€Â
(Genesis 2:1 NASB)

“Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.â€Â
(Genesis 2:1 KJV)

"Life ex nihilo" is not a Biblical doctrine. It is a modern revision of God's word.

It's (16th century) Latin for "life out of nothing".
I would submit that God's word has not been "revised" ever.

Barbarian observes:
Life, says God, was not created ex nihilo, but rather was done by the agency of nature. That's how God does almost everything in this world.

The English word "nature" does not appear in the Old Testament at all (I'm looking in the KJV to make it easier for you, but it's not in the NASB either). You may argue that it is implied, and I will argue that the explanation provided in Genesis is correct.

Yes, the universe was created ex nihilo. But life, as God says in Genesis was created by natural means.

You're missing the point again. Nothing existed before creation and God finished His work of creation.

“God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.â€Â
(Genesis 1:31 NASB) (Emphasis is mine)

He says He did it.

You repeat your arguments as if that makes them true.

No. For example, St. Augustine admitted, after a long attempt to find a way to justify a literal history in Genesis, that it was not so. His opinion was accepted by most Christians at the time, and that has not changed over the millinia.

Do you mean Augustine of Hippo (354-430)? You may be reading his works the same way you read the bible. Cite please?

You're denying the way He said He created life.

:o

And you don't go to Hell, just for not approving of the way He did it.

Please don't put words in my mouth.
I asked:

Can one know God and deny the very words He uses to describe Himself?

God says He cannot lie. God says His word is His word. God says in His word that all of creation was completed in six days.
I submit that God uses all of the Bible to describe Himself.
You are saying (and it is plain to us who are reading what you write) that God didn't do what He said He did, the way He said He did it.

Matthew 25:31-46

I don't know what you're trying to say. That text is not relevant to this discussion (at first glance).

““They bend their tongue like their bow; Lies and not truth prevail in the land; For they proceed from evil to evil, And they do not know Me,†declares the LORD.â€Â
(Jeremiah 9:3 NASB) (Emphasis is mine)

“And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.â€Â
(Jeremiah 9:3 KJV) (Emphasis is mine)

I ask again: Can one know God and deny the very words He uses to describe Himself?

Sorry for the length of this post but we seem to cover a little bit of ground very thoroughly.
I'm also prone to wordiness.

 

[BobRyan]

Barbarian observes:
Genesis directly rules out the "life ex nihilo" doctrine of YE creationism.

And how does it do this?

Barbarian observes:
God says that the earth brought forth living things. Something scientists are just beginning to confirm.


Genesis 1:24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.


“Then God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.†God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.â€Â
(Genesis 1:20-21 NASB)

Actually, that's a modern revision. The KJV, using canonical texts, says:

20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

So this too, indicates that God created life by natural means, using existing nature. "Life ex nihilo" is not a Biblical doctrine. It is a modern revision of God's word.

Nice example of eisegesis - NOW have a crack at EXEGESIS - QUOTE the verse IN CONTEXT showing that the DETAILS in the text are arguing your point.

your "snippet out" example antic is perfect eisegesis -- but then that is what we thought you were going to do to start with.

MOVE to the accepted method of exegesis instead of relying on what all Christians condemn as eisegesis.

Let the lesson begin --

you "want" to make your point from vs 20-22 so fine -- in order to avoid the condemned and transparent practice of EISEGESIS -- we will take in the CONTEXT of a LEAST a few verses before and a few after - to SEE the CONTEXT in which the words are spoken (much as you do not allow us to take just TWO SENTENCES from Patterson can call that THE ENTIRE context for the quote).

[size120]
14 Then God said, ""Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;
15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth''; and it was so.
16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; (He made the stars also).

17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,
18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good.
19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.[/b]

20 Then God said, ""Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.''
21 God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
22 God blessed them, saying, ""Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.''
23 There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

24 Then God said, ""Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind''; and it was so.
25 God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, ""Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.''
27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "" Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.''
29 Then God said, ""Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;
30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food''; and it was so.
31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day

[/size]

THEN in Exodus 20:8-11 "FOR IN SIX DAYS the LORD MADE the heavens and the earth the sea and ALL that is in them" refering to the creation of this world and all life on it.

So we see EACH day is 1 "evening and morning" and we see that the Sun is made AFTER the plants.

We also see that God has the animals all eating PLANTS just as humans are all eating PLANTS.

Instead of a LONG AGES creation process with the SUN coming first and then MAN coming FROM ANIMALS -- and ALL eating EACH OTHER -- we have a creation text VERY very different from the atheist darwinist "requirement".

Dawkins "noticed".
Provine "noticed"
Darwin "noticed"

ALL Bible believing Christians "notice"

And even YOU notice as is seen in your careful AVOIDANCE of the parts of the texts that do not please you -- but of course you are obligated to "pretend" that you -- simply "didn't notice".

Bob

 

[Barbarian]

Do you really want to base your argument on differences in translation?

The canonical text of the first Christian Bible says what the KJV says.

Barbarian observes:
So this too, indicates that God created life by natural means, using existing nature.

You're missing the point. Nothing existed before creation and God finished His work of creation. He then rested.

But, as you see, God used existing creation to make living things. Thus life "ex nihilo" is directly refuted by God in Genesis. Hence, YE creationism cannot be true. Other forms of creationism are not incompatible with the Bible, of course.

Barbarian observes:
"Life ex nihilo" is not a Biblical doctrine. It is a modern revision of God's word.

It's (16th century) Latin for "life out of nothing".
I would submit that God's word has not been "revised" ever.

People have always done that. Different denominations have subtracted books from the Bible, as they appeared to be "politically incorrect" for the time. Luther, as you probably know, removed some, and even wanted to remove James, because he pointed out that James refutes his doctrine of Sola Fide.

Barbarian observes:
Life, says God, was not created ex nihilo, but rather was done by the agency of nature. That's how God does almost everything in this world.

The English word "nature" does not appear in the Old Testament at all (I'm looking in the KJV to make it easier for you, but it's not in the NASB either).

He gives a little more detail. He says how he used nature to do it. The Earth and water brought forth living things. "Ex nihilo" means "from nothing." So obviously, life was not created ex nihilo.

You may argue that it is implied, and I will argue that the explanation provided in Genesis is correct.

Of course it's correct. God says He used nature to create life.

Barbarian observes:
Yes, the universe was created ex nihilo. But life, as God says in Genesis was created by natural means.

You're missing the point again. Nothing existed before creation and God finished His work of creation.

Of course. But life was not created from nothing. It was created from previously created things.

Barbarian observes:
No. For example, St. Augustine admitted, after a long attempt to find a way to justify a literal history in Genesis, that it was not so. His opinion was accepted by most Christians at the time, and that has not changed over the millinia.

Do you mean Augustine of Hippo (354-430)?

Yep. He rejected a literal 6-day creation week, pointing out various logical inconsistencies that made it clear that it could not be so.

You may be reading his works the same way you read the bible.

Of course. Notice that I told you exactly how life was created according to God's word. It was brought forth by the earth and waters.

Cite please?

Sure.

http://tinyurl.com/68z846

Barbarian wrote:
I don't think you're denying the words He uses to describe Himself. You're denying the way He said He created life. And you don't go to Hell, just for not approving of the way He did it.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

I was referring to your unwillingness to accept His Word in Genesis.

Can one know God and deny the very words He uses to describe Himself?

I think you'll have to answer that question for yourself.

God says He cannot lie. God says His word is His word. God says in His word that all of creation was completed in six days.

As you'll see, if you follow the link, that was not Augustine's opinion, and he was considered to be a doctor of the Church by Catholics and Protestants alike. He was, for example, highly regarded by Calvin.

I submit that God uses all of the Bible to describe Himself.

God is not nature. Pantheism is not a Christian belief. When He describes the earth bringing forth animals, it is not Him, but rather nature as His tool.

You are saying (and it is plain to us who are reading what you write) that God didn't do what He said He did, the way He said He did it.

I showed you that He said it very plainly in Genesis. If you don't want to believe it, don't. But there's no point in saying He didn't say what He did.

Barbarian mentions how Jesus says He will decide who will go with Him, and who will go with the Devil:
Matthew 25:31-46

I don't know what you're trying to say. That text is not relevant to this discussion (at first glance).

You brought up the issue of what was necessary to be saved. That's what Jesus said.

I hope you don't think I think you're bending words here. I think you are mistaken, or perhaps don't think of those parts of Genesis as literally true.

I ask again: Can one know God and deny the very words He uses to describe Himself?

God describes Himself thus:

"I am that I am."

Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

8Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

9Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

10Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

11Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

12I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.


After Jesus came, the Apostles made a creed by which Christians would know who was a Christian, and what the beliefs of Christians were:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.


This defines the essential points of Christian belief.

I don't see how you or I have denied any of that. Remember, God is not nature; nature is His creation, and subject to Him. It was by nature that He created life, as He says in Genesis.

Sorry for the length of this post but we seem to cover a little bit of ground very thoroughly.
I'm also prone to wordiness.

No problem. You seem like a very nice person, and I hate to disagree with you. Think about it a bit, um?

 

[freeway]

hey guys I tried reading most of the post.. some are very long.. but good.. If I may add my 2 cents worth...

quote:

:The Barbarian wrote:Barbarian observes:
Genesis directly rules out the "life ex nihilo" doctrine of YE creationism.

NO it does not.. One reason that I believe it doesn't is that .. after every creation event day 1 thur 6 what did God say... It was GOOD..Perfect God only creates perfection.. only.. Now if God let nature bring forth life, and we are taking in a perfect world at this time. Adam and Eve had not sinned as of yet.. so if the world was perfect and if God used an imperfect means "evolution" which uses trial and error until it get it right.. death of a cell that mutates wrong and dies.. then the world God created was not perfect and He lied to us.. and if this is so what else has He lied about, Jesus also lied then about, Salvation, hope of eternal life, Noah's flood, angels, demons, satan.. So I believe God created it all in 6 days.. rested on the 7th.. you can add millions of years to try and make something you believe plausible but the bible doesn't say that...................... freeway01 8-) 8-)

 

[BobRyan]

Barbarian - engaged in "Bible avoidance" as his "solution" to this problem

Barbarian -

God is not nature. Pantheism is not a Christian belief. When He describes the earth bringing forth animals, it is not Him, but rather nature as His tool.

As Barbarian already learned in this post --
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=31943&p=389503#p389454

"FOR in SIX DAYS the LORD MADE the heavens and the earth the sea and aLL that is in them" Exodus 20:8-11

Ex 20
8 ""Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "" Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "" For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Yet Barbarian COUNTERS the Bible with "it is NOT HIM bringing forth animals"

How sad that Barbarian uses such transparently flawed arguments.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Col 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

More "Bible" to be avoided by Barbarian -- skipping over the underlined and highlighted -- Barbarian seeks to "insert" the Barbarian-Christian idea of "God who did NOT MAKE" ... "God who did NOT CREATE"

Gen 1
20 Then God said, ""Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.''
21 God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
22 God blessed them, saying, ""Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.''
23 There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

24 Then God said, ""Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind''; and it was so.
25 God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, ""Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.''
27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "" Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.''
29 Then God said, ""Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;
30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food''; and it was so.
31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day

HOW did God "create"? How did He "MAKE" in each of those "evening and Morning" segments?

HE SPOKE it into existence!

[quote:70225]Ps 33
6By the word of the LORD the heavens were made,
And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
7He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap;
He lays up the deeps in storehouses.
8Let all the earth fear the LORD;
Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.
9For He spoke, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast.

[/quote:70225]

Bob

 

[VaultZero4Me]

hey guys I tried reading most of the post.. some are very long.. but good.. If I may add my 2 cents worth...

quote:

:The Barbarian wrote:Barbarian observes:
Genesis directly rules out the "life ex nihilo" doctrine of YE creationism.

NO it does not.. One reason that I believe it doesn't is that .. after every creation event day 1 thur 6 what did God say... It was GOOD..Perfect God only creates perfection.. only.. Now if God let nature bring forth life, and we are taking in a perfect world at this time. Adam and Eve had not sinned as of yet.. so if the world was perfect and if God used an imperfect means "evolution" which uses trial and error until it get it right.. death of a cell that mutates wrong and dies.. then the world God created was not perfect and He lied to us.. and if this is so what else has He lied about, Jesus also lied then about, Salvation, hope of eternal life, Noah's flood, angels, demons, satan.. So I believe God created it all in 6 days.. rested on the 7th.. you can add millions of years to try and make something you believe plausible but the bible doesn't say that...................... freeway01 8-) 8-)

Using this logical reasoning I could say the Bible says that viri and bacteria does not exist, therefore all the evidence that shows they do is false and misread.

A virus destroys. Bacteria feeds on death.

If God did not create anything after day 6, where did they come from? They must not exist in the literal view.



In fact, the literal "no death" can not be true because Adam and Eve ate fruit, which is killing the fruit.

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Genesis directly rules out the "life ex nihilo" doctrine of YE creationism.

NO it does not..

It certainly does. It says explicitly that living things were created from the earth and waters. Which means they were not made from nothing.

One reason that I believe it doesn't is that .. after every creation event day 1 thur 6 what did God say... It was GOOD..Perfect God only creates perfection.. only.. Now if God let nature bring forth life,

That's what He said He did:

Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

and we are taking in a perfect world at this time. Adam and Eve had not sinned as of yet.. so if the world was perfect and if God used an imperfect means "evolution" which uses trial and error until it get it right..

Sorry. Your reasoning does not overrule God's Word.

death of a cell that mutates wrong and dies.. then the world God created was not perfect and He lied to us..

"Perfect" is your alteration of Scripture. He says "good", not "perfect."

and if this is so what else has He lied about,

He didn't lie; you just edited His words a bit. Once you accept what He actually said, all your concerns will be gone.

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian - engaged in "Bible avoidance" as his "solution" to this problem

I'm not sure if Bob is actually a pantheist, or just doesn't understand here...

Barbarian observes:
God is not nature. Pantheism is not a Christian belief. When He describes the earth bringing forth animals, it is not Him, but rather nature as His tool.

Bob, do you really think the Earth is God? Or are you denying that the earth brought forth life?

Which of these? The Bible, as you see denies life ex nihilo, saying that the earth brought forth life. God did it, of course, but used nature to do it.

If you claim to be a Christian, Bob, trust God and what He tells you.

 

[BobRyan]

As Barbarian learned here -
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=31943&p=389512#p389503

The Bible says "GOD made" it says "GOD created" it never says "Ground MADE" nor "Ground Created" NOR does it say "Ground EVOLVED into animal" NOR does it say "Ground evolved into cells then cells MADE fish then fish MADE reptiles then reptiles MADE birds then..."

The entire mythology of atheist darwinism is MISSING from the Bible account.

Darwin "noticed"
Dawkins "noticed"
Provine "noticed"
ALL Bible believing Christians "notice" the texts that speak to God MAKING ---God CREATING via the process "HE SPOKE at it WAS".

In 6 REAL "Evenings and Mornings"

Bob

 

[DavidLee]

No. For example, St. Augustine admitted, after a long attempt to find a way to justify a literal history in Genesis, that it was not so. His opinion was accepted by most Christians at the time, and that has not changed over the millinia.

Do you mean Augustine of Hippo (354-430)?

Yep. He rejected a literal 6-day creation week, pointing out various logical inconsistencies that made it clear that it could not be so.
...
http://tinyurl.com/68z846
...
As you'll see, if you follow the link, that was not Augustine's opinion, and he was considered to be a doctor of the Church by Catholics and Protestants alike. He was, for example, highly regarded by Calvin.

High regard does not indicate truth.
I can't paste from that source but if you look at page 106, paragraph 6, he plainly says that "God therefore, accomplished the works of His creation in six days, a perfect number of days." The text leading up to that reminds me of a Monty Python sketch, but he does not reject six day creation or a literal Genesis account of creation.

I submit that God uses all of the Bible to describe Himself.

God is not nature. Pantheism is not a Christian belief. When He describes the earth bringing forth animals, it is not Him, but rather nature as His tool.

Non-sequiter. We are not discussing pantheism. I feel safe stating neither of us is a pantheist.

“Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.â€Â
(Genesis 2:19 NASB)

Why did He not say "Let nature bring..."? It sure would have cleared up some of the confusion.

You are saying (and it is plain to us who are reading what you write) that God didn't do what He said He did, the way He said He did it.

I showed you that He said it very plainly in Genesis.

No. You didn't. Further, I can't believe you really think you proved your point.

You brought up the issue of what was necessary to be saved.

No. I didn't. I asked if you can know God and deny the words He uses to describe Himself. You have refused to answer (repeatedly).

After Jesus came, the Apostles made a creed by which Christians would know who was a Christian, and what the beliefs of Christians were:

The "Apostles Creed" was written long after the apostles died. They had nothing to do with it.
You are correct in that it was used as an ID card of sorts to identify believers. It was written to combat Gnosticism. No one thought to include anything about literal correctness of the scripture because it was a given. Each article of the creed was in response to a Gnostic belief that threatened to infiltrate (and thus pollute) the church.

It was by nature that He created life, as He says in Genesis.

“Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.â€Â
(Genesis 2:19 NASB)

“And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.â€Â
(Genesis 2:19 KJV)

If you will not see the plain language used, I don't know what else I can say.

 

[BobRyan]

Barbarian - engaged in "Bible avoidance" as his Barbarian-Christian "solution" to this problem

Barbarian -

God is not nature. Pantheism is not a Christian belief. When He describes the earth bringing forth animals, it is not Him, but rather nature as His tool.

However as that Barbarian-Christian readership group already learned at the post at this link --
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=31943&p=389503#p389454

And then AGAIN at the post at this link
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=31943&start=30#p389503

And now once "again" at this post


"FOR in SIX DAYS the LORD MADE the heavens and the earth the sea and aLL that is in them" Exodus 20:8-11

Ex 20
8 ""Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "" Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "" For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Yet Barbarian COUNTERS the Bible with "it is NOT HIM bringing forth animals"

How sad that Barbarian uses such transparently flawed arguments.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Col 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

More "Bible" to be avoided by Barbarian -- skipping over the underlined and highlighted -- Barbarian seeks to "insert" the Barbarian-Christian idea of "God who did NOT MAKE" ... "God who did NOT CREATE"

Gen 1
20 Then God said, ""Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.''
21 God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
22 God blessed them, saying, ""Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.''
23 There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

24 Then God said, ""Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind''; and it was so.
25 God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, ""Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.''
27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "" Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.''
29 Then God said, ""Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;
30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food''; and it was so.
31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day

HOW did God "create"? How did He "MAKE" in each of those "evening and Morning" segments?

HE SPOKE it into existence!

[quote:a5e3e]Ps 33
6By the word of the LORD the heavens were made,
And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
7He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap;
He lays up the deeps in storehouses.
8Let all the earth fear the LORD;
Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.
9For He spoke, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast.

[/quote:a5e3e]

Bob