Do you really want to base your argument on differences in translation?
The canonical text of the first Christian Bible says what the KJV says.
Barbarian observes:
So this too, indicates that God created life by natural means, using existing nature.
You're missing the point. Nothing existed before creation and God finished His work of creation. He then rested.
But, as you see, God used existing creation to make living things. Thus life "ex nihilo" is directly refuted by God in Genesis. Hence, YE creationism cannot be true. Other forms of creationism are not incompatible with the Bible, of course.
Barbarian observes:
"Life ex nihilo" is not a Biblical doctrine. It is a modern revision of God's word.
It's (16th century) Latin for "life out of nothing".
I would submit that God's word has not been "revised" ever.
People have always done that. Different denominations have subtracted books from the Bible, as they appeared to be "politically incorrect" for the time. Luther, as you probably know, removed some, and even wanted to remove James, because he pointed out that James refutes his doctrine of Sola Fide.
Barbarian observes:
Life, says God, was not created ex nihilo, but rather was done by the agency of nature. That's how God does almost everything in this world.
The English word "nature" does not appear in the Old Testament at all (I'm looking in the KJV to make it easier for you, but it's not in the NASB either).
He gives a little more detail. He says how he used nature to do it. The Earth and water brought forth living things. "Ex nihilo" means "from nothing." So obviously, life was not created ex nihilo.
You may argue that it is implied, and I will argue that the explanation provided in Genesis is correct.
Of course it's correct. God says He used nature to create life.
Barbarian observes:
Yes, the universe was created ex nihilo. But life, as God says in Genesis was created by natural means.
You're missing the point again. Nothing existed before creation and God finished His work of creation.
Of course. But life was not created from nothing. It was created from previously created things.
Barbarian observes:
No. For example, St. Augustine admitted, after a long attempt to find a way to justify a literal history in Genesis, that it was not so. His opinion was accepted by most Christians at the time, and that has not changed over the millinia.
Do you mean Augustine of Hippo (354-430)?
Yep. He rejected a literal 6-day creation week, pointing out various logical inconsistencies that made it clear that it could not be so.
You may be reading his works the same way you read the bible.
Of course. Notice that I told you exactly how life was created according to God's word. It was brought forth by the earth and waters.
Sure.
http://tinyurl.com/68z846
Barbarian wrote:
I don't think you're denying the words He uses to describe Himself. You're denying the way He said He created life. And you don't go to Hell, just for not approving of the way He did it.
Please don't put words in my mouth.
I was referring to your unwillingness to accept His Word in Genesis.
Can one know God and deny the very words He uses to describe Himself?
I think you'll have to answer that question for yourself.
God says He cannot lie. God says His word is His word. God says in His word that all of creation was completed in six days.
As you'll see, if you follow the link, that was not Augustine's opinion, and he was considered to be a doctor of the Church by Catholics and Protestants alike. He was, for example, highly regarded by Calvin.
I submit that God uses all of the Bible to describe Himself.
God is not nature. Pantheism is not a Christian belief. When He describes the earth bringing forth animals, it is not Him, but rather nature as His tool.
You are saying (and it is plain to us who are reading what you write) that God didn't do what He said He did, the way He said He did it.
I showed you that He said it very plainly in Genesis. If you don't want to believe it, don't. But there's no point in saying He didn't say what He did.
Barbarian mentions how Jesus says He will decide who will go with Him, and who will go with the Devil:
Matthew 25:31-46
I don't know what you're trying to say. That text is not relevant to this discussion (at first glance).
You brought up the issue of what was necessary to be saved. That's what Jesus said.
I hope you don't think I think you're bending words here. I think you are mistaken, or perhaps don't think of those parts of Genesis as literally true.
I ask again: Can one know God and deny the very words He uses to describe Himself?
God describes Himself thus:
"I am that I am."
Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
8Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
9Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
10Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
11Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
12I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
After Jesus came, the Apostles made a creed by which Christians would know who was a Christian, and what the beliefs of Christians were:
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
This defines the essential points of Christian belief.
I don't see how you or I have denied any of that. Remember, God is not nature; nature is His creation, and subject to Him. It was by nature that He created life, as He says in Genesis.
Sorry for the length of this post but we seem to cover a little bit of ground very thoroughly.
I'm also prone to wordiness. :D
No problem. You seem like a very nice person, and I hate to disagree with you. Think about it a bit, um?
