Atonement

[chakham]

Where is the commandment which makes a blood only sacrifice the requirement for the atonement of presumptive sin?

 

[beforHim]

I think it's all the "life for life". Blood is an idiom, back in the day, for life. God commands life for life. it wasn't necessarily Jesus' blood, but His life- and he being God, it was God's life.

Uh-oh, I think this is too much philosophical thinking, and not enough "Bible only". I'm no good at proof texting, but I'm sure someone soon enough'll come by and lay the texts down.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where is the commandment which makes a blood only sacrifice the requirement for the atonement of presumptive sin?

If you mean sinning in reasonable ignorance, I think it is there in the first chapters of Leviticus.

Are you thinking there may be an additional requirement to atone for presumptive sin?

 

[Digger]

Where is the commandment which makes a blood only sacrifice the requirement for the atonement of presumptive sin?

There was no sacrifice for presumptuous sin in the Old Testament.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There was no sacrifice for presumptuous sin in the Old Testament.

I had to look the word 'presumptuous' up to know if he meant intentional or unintentional sin. Presumptuous sin would be more along the lines of sinning in ignorance, or unknowingly, not willfully and intentionally. Intentional sin is what could not be forgiven under the law. And when I went to fetch that scripture from Numbers I saw this is where it also talks about unintentional (presumptuous) sin and the offering required for it:


22 “‘Now if you unintentionally fail to keep any of these commands the Lord gave Moses — 23 any of the Lord’s commands to you through him, from the day the Lord gave them and continuing through the generations to come — 24 and if this is done unintentionally without the community being aware of it, then the whole community is to offer a young bull for a burnt offering as an aroma pleasing to the Lord, along with its prescribed grain offering and drink offering, and a male goat for a sin offering. 25 The priest is to make atonement for the whole Israelite community, and they will be forgiven, for it was not intentional and they have brought to the Lord for their wrong an offering made by fire and a sin offering. 26 The whole Israelite community and the aliens living among them will be forgiven, because all the people were involved in the unintentional wrong.

27 “‘But if just one person sins unintentionally, he must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering. 28 The priest is to make atonement before the Lord for the one who erred by sinning unintentionally, and when atonement has been made for him, he will be forgiven. 29 One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether he is a native-born Israelite or an alien.

30 “‘But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or alien, blasphemes the Lord, and that person must be cut off from his people. 31 Because he has despised the Lord’s word and broken his commands, that person must surely be cut off; his guilt remains on him. ’”

Numbers 15:-30 NIV1984


It looks like for the whole community an animal offering and a grain and drink offering was required for presumptuous sin. But only an animal offering for an individual guilty of presumptuous sin.

 

[beforHim]

It's funny how there seems to be no sacrifice for wilingly sinning, yet God is patient, often not punishening people for their sins at all.

there are probbaly all sorts of things wrong with that statment- I'm just thinking out loud here.

 

[Digger]

Jethro,


Presumptuous sin is willful sin, not unintentional sins done in ignorance.

There was no sacrifice for presumptuous sin in the Old Testament.

Numbers 15 (Presumptuous Sin)

30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the Lord; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
31 Because he hath despised the word of the Lord, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.


Numbers 15 (Non-presumptuous Sin)

22 And if ye have erred, and not observed all these commandments, which the Lord hath spoken unto Moses,
23 Even all that the Lord hath commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day that the Lord commanded Moses, and henceforward among your generations;
24 Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the Lord, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.
25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the Lord, and their sin offering before the Lord, for their ignorance:
26 And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people were in ignorance.
27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the Lord, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.




Under the New Covenant grace abounded while sin abounded but when someone is truly cleansed by the blood willful sin is out of the question. No person who is in rebellion to God is going to enter the kingdom.


All willful sin must be repented of and forsaken completely.

 

[Digger]

It's funny how there seems to be no sacrifice for wilingly sinning, yet God is patient, often not punishening people for their sins at all.

there are probbaly all sorts of things wrong with that statment- I'm just thinking out loud here.

Romans 2 says this...

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,


2 Peter 3 says this...

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Ezekiel 18 says...

9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.
10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,
11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,
12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,
13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.
14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,
15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,
16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,
17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.
18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.