Bible Study AV or RV

[Gendou Ikari]

I have a question. The King James Version of today, is it the Authorized Version or the Revised Version?

 

[AVBunyan]

I have a question. The King James Version of today, is it the Authorized Version or the Revised Version?

Authorized Version

The RV of 1881 is based upon corrupt manuscripts found by the Wescott/Hort Corruption Team. All new versions are based upon these manuscripts.

The AV is not based on these - the AV is based upon the texts from Asia Minor not Egypt like the modern versions.

God bless

 

[Gendou Ikari]

So the revised edition is corrupt?

Just one more question, okay? The Authorized Version of today is not the same one printed in 1611 is it? Because I heard that the 1611 one had like two thousand errors in it. It even said, "thou shalt commit adultery."

 

[cubedbee]

So the revised edition is corrupt?

Just one more question, okay? The Authorized Version of today is not the same one printed in 1611 is it? Because I heard that the 1611 one had like two thousand errors in it. It even said, "thou shalt commit adultery."

No, the revised edition is not corrupt. In fact, if one of the two is corrupt it is the AV, because the RV is based on much earlier manuscripts, and so are closer to the originals. The AV has many more manuscripts, but they are much later and are just copies of the same errors and editions over and over again.

And yes, you are right about the errors in the 1611 edition. Conclusively historical proof that the AV is not an inerrant book--yet AV apologists will lie to you and try to dance around this fact.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. So the revised edition is corrupt?

2. The Authorized Version of today is not the same one printed in 1611 is it?

3. Because I heard that the 1611 one had like two thousand errors in it. It even said, "thou shalt commit adultery."

1. Yes, it is - very corrupt - it only lasted intil 1901 when the AV1901 came out - another corrupt piece of work. Again both the above were based on corrupt manuscipts produced by a lost philospher (Origen) in the 3rd century in Egypt.

The link below will provide enough documented evidence to support the above.

http://av1611bible.com/links/av1611.htm

2. It is basically the same - updated spellings, etc.

3. These errors were not translation errors but typos. honest mistakes (like the one above), mispellings, printer errors, etc. These have all been documented thoroughly and is readily available.

The King James translators had all the manuscripts available on the table in 1611, including the corrupt ones that the RV 1881 came from, and they wouldn't use them for they knew their "Origen".

The false info that the RV is based upon earlier manuscirpts is just that false - a pipe dream - You know what Barnum and Baily said?

Bottom line - if you have anything other than a King James Bible you have a Roman Catholic bible - plain and simple. And I trust you do not like reading a bible that attacks the diety of Christ and the blood attonement for this is what all modern versions do. Because they uphold the truths in some places does not excuse their devilment in the places where they do attack these doctrines.

Because you can find a diamond in a trash can does not make the trash can a jewelry store :o

God bless 8-)

 

[cubedbee]

Bottom line - if you have anything other than a King James Bible you have a Roman Catholic bible - plain and simple. And I trust you do not like reading a bible that attacks the diety of Christ and the blood attonement for this is what all modern versions do. Because they uphold the truths in some places does not excuse their devilment in the places where they do attack these doctrines.

Bottom line is you are blaspheming against God's Word, you are falsely worshipping the error-filled KJV, and your lies are sickening. You will have to account to Christ for all the times you have attacked his word and driven people away from Christ by lying about a translation God's holy word and slandering it. I pray that nobody reading this falls for your hate-speech against God's Word.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

The Authorized Version is far from perfect. And just because another version says something that is different from the KJV does not make it wrong.

The KJV cleverly translates the word Aion as for ever and ever:

Revelation 20 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever[aion] and ever[aion].

How can you have two for evers?

And world:

Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world[aion], according to the will of God and our Father:

As well as the word Sheol(in the Old Testament) as 31 times hell, 31 times Grave and 3 or 4 times pit. Talk about inconsistent.

 

[AVBunyan]

The Authorized Version is far from perfect. And just because another version says something that is different from the KJV does not make it wrong.

Those Greek & Hebrew words you came up with to correct the KJV – were they from the corrupt texts of Egypt or the pure line from Asia Minor?

Are you seeking to correct the KJV with manuscripts from Egypt?

Did you come up with this on your own or did somebody show you this and you are just akin their word for it?

I'm sorry - I was mistaken I guess - I thought you were searching for truth. Instead it appears you may be just another "Let's find something wrong with the King James because somebody told me something was wrong with it."

If this is the case I'm not interested in going any further with this thread - Stick with your modern versions so you can get along comfortably with the rest of the world.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

I really don't even know what the corrupt texts are? And can you prove that they are corrupt. Can you prove that the Textus Reptus or what ever it is called is 100% Perfect.

I am searching for the truth and I am not, like you said, "Let's find something wrong with the King James because somebody told me something was wrong with it."

Hey, AVBunyan, I read from the King James Version (I don't own any other bible). I think that it is awesome, except for a few minor problems. But I believe that every Bible has problems.

P.S. I've got those Greek words from Strong's Concordance.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. I am searching for the truth and I am not, like you said, "Let's find something wrong with the King James because somebody told me something was wrong with it."

2. Hey, AVBunyan, I read from the King James Version (I don't own any other bible). I think that it is awesome, except for a few minor problems. But I believe that every Bible has problems.

3. P.S. I've got those Greek words from Strong's Concordance.

1. Ok, my apology - But you atarted out asking a question - I answered and I gave you a link to support what I believed to be so - You responded with three things you thought were wrong with the AV so... my reflector shields went up.

2. Good - stick with it - God blessed it for over 350 years so why change? :o Those minor problems are not problems and the answers to those issues are ironed out within the links I provided. One must be careful in "finding errors" or "problems" in a KJV for just because one doesn't understand the passage doesn't make it a problem or error.

3. Be careful with Greek and Hebrew until you have exhausted the English first - try a Webster's 1828 dictionary first - just a suggestion and you don't have to take it. Plus you do not know what Greek or Hebrew the concordances and lexicons are based on.

Now, based upon your statement, "I am searching for the truth" I'd be happy to continue if you are interested.

God bless 8-)

 

[cubedbee]

3. Be careful with Greek and Hebrew until you have exhausted the English first - try a Webster's 1828 dictionary first - just a suggestion and you don't have to take it. Plus you do not know what Greek or Hebrew the concordances and lexicons are based on.

Wow, is this absolutely horrible advice. THe Bible WAS NOT written in English. The Bible WAS written in Hebrew and Greek. You should be careful with the English translations until you have exhausted the Greek and the Hebrew---don't get a KJV which has tons of additions to the original scripture and reflects the biases and misconceptions of the translators--get a interlinear Bible that translates the Greek or Hebrew word for word. Look to what God's word actually says, instead of worshipping some 17th century men who were as imperfect as you and I and have no authority on God's Word.

 

[Solo]

GREAT ADVICE AV. When others understand the difference between the Alexandrian texts and the Textus Receptus they will be so much better off. There are seldom any legitimate criticisms of the AV that hold water. I am waiting for one of the Alexandrian text proponents to show where the AV changes the meaning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, or changes a major doctrine of the body of Christ Jesus. I very seldom hear any of these proponents of the Alexandrian texts teach any scripture anyway, I just hear them accuse the brethren. Who does that sound like?

 

[Gendou Ikari]

I simply cannot believe that the King James Version is perfect. I cannot reconcile these verses.

Matthew 25:46 (King James Version) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

1 Timothy 4:10 (King James Version) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Colossians 1:20 (King James Version) And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Note: Please don't blaspheme by making all less then all.

Now This verse makes perfect sense and harmonizes with the rest of the Scripture.

Matthew 25:46 (Concordant Literal New Testament) And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

But I don't want to bring this into a UR debate.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. Wow, is this absolutely horrible advice.

2. THe Bible WAS NOT written in English.

3. The Bible WAS written in Hebrew and Greek.

4. You should be careful with the English translations until you have exhausted the Greek and the Hebrew---

5. don't get a KJV which has tons of additions to the original scripture and reflects the biases and misconceptions of the translatorsâ€â€

6. get a interlinear Bible that translates the Greek or Hebrew word for word.

7. Look to what God's word actually says, instead of worshipping some 17th century men who were as imperfect as you and I and have no authority on God's Word.

Well, cubed let’s analyze your thoughts here:

1. So, your advice would be to take someone who doesn’t know Greek/Hebrew and have him be at the mercy of languages spoken by less than 2% of the world today? So, your advice would be to have him be put at the mercy of Greek/Hebrew scholars who disagree all over the place!?!?! Great advice cubed – talk about creating confusion. The common man (coal-miner, farmer, uneducated, native, Indian, steel worker, etc.) of the past had no problem with the KJV English – why do you? Were they “smarter†than you? Maybe not – but they believed what they read to be so without questioning it like your crowd does. God honors simple faith not your scholarship.

2. Moses and Pharaoh spoke in Egyptian – Moses wrote it in Hebrew – did he miss anything? When you say the Bible to what are you referring to – the originals? Are you saying that all the great missionaries should have taken only the Greek and Hebrew to the cannibals and heathen? The KJV worked fine enough. You mean you can trust God for your salvation but you can’t trust God to get his word to you in English? Small view of God you have cubed.

3. See point #2 above. You are not a Greek or Hebrew are you? Can you or your buddies speak affluent Greek or Hebrew? I bet you folks haven’t even mastered simple English yet! I mean the average word in a KJV is 5 letters or less! What’s the problem here?

4. Which Greek or Hebrew cubed? I mean there are only at least 50 Greek and Hebrew lexicons based upon multiple sets of conflicting manuscripts? Which ones cubed - the ones from Egypt or Asia Minor?

5. Do you have a copy of the “originals†cube to show us these “additions� Reflects the bias of the translators huh? Really? You mean the baby sprinkling, a-millennial, Anglicans who put together a pre-millennial Bible that didn’t even reflect their own doctrinal views? So, you are saying God was not working all things after the council of his own will in 1611 but he is today with the latest 150 conflicting versions? Are you saying your crowd is smarter than those 1611 translators were?

6. Which Greek and Hebrew is your final authority for this cubed – again there are only 50 lexicons out there to pick and choose from. What is your authority for this cubed? Do you have the “original†bible to compare it to? Are you saying the originals (OT and NT) at one time were together in one book called the bible? Where is this “bible†you speak of cubed?

7. How do you know what “God’s word actually says†cubed? Do you have the originals? Do you believe any modern version is perfect and without error today? What is your final authority cubed? Yes, these 17th century men were sinners just like David, who was a murderer, and wrote Psalms and Moses, who was a murderer, and wrote the first 5 books of the bible. So, cubed do you worship the modern translators? So, if those men were not authorities on God’s word then who is cubed, you and your crowd??? Are you saying your crowd can do a better job and get more results? Well, you’d think after 150 versions since 1881 they would have gotten it right by now!?!?!?

No – cubed – you need to re-think through your arguments – they are old and wore out.

I’ll stick with the book God used and blessed to win more souls than all your modern versions put together.

Have a nice day now!

God bless

 

[cubedbee]

1. So, your advice would be to take someone who doesn’t know Greek/Hebrew and have him be at the mercy of languages spoken by less than 2% of the world today? So, your advice would be to have him be put at the mercy of Greek/Hebrew scholars who disagree all over the place!?!?! Great advice cubed – talk about creating confusion. The common man (coal-miner, farmer, uneducated, native, Indian, steel worker, etc.) of the past had no problem with the KJV English – why do you? Were they “smarter†than you? Maybe not – but they believed what they read to be so without questioning it like your crowd does. God honors simple faith not your scholarship.

The Bible, the Holy Word of God, is a text that is written in Greek and Hebrew. It is God who put us modern English people “at the mercy†of translators. Your advice is to trust just a single set of translators, who happened to live 400 years ago, and who are fallible men just like you and I. My advice is not to trust any translator, to realize that all have biases and that there is not such thing as a perfect translation, and to utilize a wide range of translations. Personally, I recommend a Parallel Bibleâ€â€one with 4 columns such as the KJV, NIV, NASB, and Amplified, is a good start and to supplement this with an interlinear Bible. Read passages in all 4 versions, noting where they agree and disagree. In cases of disagreement, go back to the original Greek and Hebrew in the interlinear, word for word translations that are accepted by all Biblical scholars, and try to determine which of the translations was closest to the original in meaning. My advice doesn’t trust any one set of fallible men to tell me what God’s Word readâ€â€and as such it is better advice than yours.

I have no trouble reading the KJV, I am not dumb, and I in fact do read it. But I do not rely on it solely because it is a flawed and outdated translation, definitely the most poetic and prettiest to read, but not the most reliable. The common man of today has no trouble with NIV Englishâ€â€why do you? God does honor simple faith, the faith that millions of Scriptures have in God’s Holy Word as translated in the NIV, and you are the one who dismiss this and claim they must have faith in YOUR translation. And no, you’re wrong, God also honors scholarship, and in fact wants all of his children who are mature enough to scholarly and analytically approach his actual Word ourselves, not simply close our eyes and trust other men.

2. Moses and Pharaoh spoke in Egyptian – Moses wrote it in Hebrew – did he miss anything? When you say the Bible to what are you referring to – the originals? Are you saying that all the great missionaries should have taken only the Greek and Hebrew to the cannibals and heathen? The KJV worked fine enough. You mean you can trust God for your salvation but you can’t trust God to get his word to you in English? Small view of God you have cubed.

Honestly, this isn’t any sort of coherent point, so I will address your sentences one by one.
1) Moses was both the writer and the speakerâ€â€so no, we know the translation between languages is correct. Can’t say the same about anyone who has ever translated the Bible into English, so not sure where you’re going with this.
2) Yes, the Bible is inspired Hebrew and Greek texts written over a couple thousand years. You and I are both familiar with translations.
3) No, missionaries should preach the gospel in the language of those they are preaching to. Which is usually not English. And so, no, in most cases, the KJV did not work fine enough. The Bible needs to be translated into an accessible language to be effective, and that’s the language of the people, whether Chinese, Spanish, Arab, etc.
4) I do trust God to get me his Word in Englishâ€â€he has done it in many translations, all but one of which you profane and belittle.
5) Awful small view you have, if you think that only your English translation which happened 400 years ago is the Word of God.

3. See point #2 above. You are not a Greek or Hebrew are you? Can you or your buddies speak affluent Greek or Hebrew? I bet you folks haven’t even mastered simple English yet! I mean the average word in a KJV is 5 letters or less! What’s the problem here?[

No, I’m no more Greek or Hebrew than I am a 17th century Englishman. I am an American, and American English is my language, and so according to your “logic†I should be using the translations in my language, which I do. The English of the KJV is certainly closer to our language that Greek and Hebrew, but it is not the language we speak today, and despite your claims to the contrary, a high-school educated American will need reference materials to understand what the KJV says, same as I need to understand what the Greek and Hebrew says.

Thing is, the Greek and Hebrew is God’s actual Word that he transmitted, and so is worth studying. The KJV is just one of thousands of translations, and there is nothing about it that is special or makes more worthy of study than a plain English translation.

4. Which Greek or Hebrew cubed? I mean there are only at least 50 Greek and Hebrew lexicons based upon multiple sets of conflicting manuscripts? Which ones cubed - the ones from Egypt or Asia Minor?

I use both sets of manuscripts, as do all modern translations. The ones from Asia are more numerous, but they are later and repeat the same additions and errors over and over. The ones from Egypt are older, and thus closer to the original. Personally, I use Strong’s lexicon, but I have never seen any evidence that lexicon’s vary enough to cause any sort of meaningful difference in the translation of the Word.

5. Do you have a copy of the “originals†cube to show us these “additions� Reflects the bias of the translators huh? Really? You mean the baby sprinkling, a-millennial, Anglicans who put together a pre-millennial Bible that didn’t even reflect their own doctrinal views? So, you are saying God was not working all things after the council of his own will in 1611 but he is today with the latest 150 conflicting versions? Are you saying your crowd is smarter than those 1611 translators were?

I am saying God is working his will today just as he was in 1611, that in 1611 the KJV was by far the best translation of the Bible, but that yes, scholars today are smarter and vastly more knowledgeable, and that yes, God has given us at least 150 versions, not of which conflict in the slightest doctrinal issue, and all of which effectively convey God’s word to modern people. Do you not have faith in God that he can still work today? Why do you think God stopped working 400 years ago?

6. Which Greek and Hebrew is your final authority for this cubed – again there are only 50 lexicons out there to pick and choose from. What is your authority for this cubed? Do you have the “original†bible to compare it to? Are you saying the originals (OT and NT) at one time were together in one book called the bible? Where is this “bible†you speak of cubed?

God is my final authority. I do believe that the early church, considering that they had codified the Bible with 60 years of Christ’s death, did have a single book of the OT and NT called the Bible, written in Hebrew and Greek. We don’t have that book anymore, and so we have to read imperfect translations of scraps of copies of copies of copies of copies of the originals, and so no, there is no perfect English text that is God’s Word. I use my brain and draw on the resources of scholarly Christians to come as close to the original Word as I can, and all, mature Christians interested in the Truth should do likewise.

7. How do you know what “God’s word actually says†cubed? Do you have the originals? Do you believe any modern version is perfect and without error today? What is your final authority cubed? Yes, these 17th century men were sinners just like David, who was a murderer, and wrote Psalms and Moses, who was a murderer, and wrote the first 5 books of the bible. So, cubed do you worship the modern translators? So, if those men were not authorities on God’s word then who is cubed, you and your crowd??? Are you saying your crowd can do a better job and get more results? Well, you’d think after 150 versions since 1881 they would have gotten it right by now!?!?!?

No, no translation of the Bible is perfect and without error. God is my final authority, and he should be yours as well. There are no authorities on God’s word except God. It is foolish to believe otherwise. The versions today do a better job at translating God’s Word than the KJV. But there will never be a single perfect authoritative English language Bible.

No – cubed – you need to re-think through your arguments – they are old and wore out.

I’ll stick with the book God used and blessed to win more souls than all your modern versions put together.

Have a nice day now!

God bless

Actually, your arguments are the ones that have been around for well over 100 years, not changing, not acknowledging facts, twisting history and slandering modern translators, and not oce demonstrating a single doctrine that modern versions do not teach but the KJV does. Keep pretending that you somehow know the fate of billions of people’s immortal souls, and that it’s the KJV that’s “winning them.†I’ll acknowledge that it’s God alone who knows the fates of souls, and that as long as the Gospel is presented, which the modern versions do a superb job of, it is the living Holy Spirit, and not some dead book, which wins souls.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Great post cubedbee! :-D

The King James Version cannot be the inspired word of God. It's gone through thousands of changes since it's release in 1611. How is that inspired? It had apocryphal books does that mean that they are inspired?

I consider the NIV to be iffy but what is the problem with the New King James version and how does it slander the truth. Show me! Point to a line or give me and sentence. It's the easiest thing in the world to say that something is corrupt. Can you prove that the Egyptian texts are corrupt. If they are show me, I'm always egger to learn.

Note: Erasmus was a big fan of 'Origin.'

 

[AVBunyan]

Great post cubedbee! :-D

The King James Version cannot be the inspired word of God. It's gone through thousands of changes since it's release in 1611. How is that inspired? It had apocryphal books does that mean that they are inspired?

Note: Erasmus was a big fan of 'Origin.'

Now Gendou - I provided you a link toa page that was full of links that covers everything you have asked and have issues with. If you were to review that link and do some research you will find answers - they are there - the links I provided have the information. If you will not review the links so as to get some background then there is nothing more I can do here - those folks in those links have done considerable research and have lots of documentation.

Are you afraid that I might be right? Are you really looking for truth or just are you just looking for someone like cubedbee who will agree with you and give you the standard "party line" that has been pushed out here for the last 50 years? What's it going to be Gendou? Are you just going to take cubedbee's word on it or are you going to research for yourself?

Are you prepared to take the heat or do you just want to get along with the rest of apostate christianity on this issue?

Your choice Gendou.

God bless

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Alright, AV Bunyan I'll review the evidence but it is going to take a while.

I highly doubt that I will accept this view though. Both Eternal Hell and Universal Salvation are taught in the King James Version, this is something I cannot accept.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. Alright, AV Bunyan I'll review the evidence but it is going to take a while.

2. I highly doubt that I will accept this view though. Both Eternal Hell and Universal Salvation are taught in the King James Version, this is something I cannot accept.

Thanks Gendou - this is all I ask - not for me but for you. If you do check it out with an open mind it would be a mark of your CHristian character even if you do not see what I am saying. The fact the you would check it out is more than most do when presented with the research.

2. The AV1611 does not teache Universal salvation but does teach an eternal hell. I stick with the book - never failed me or anybody else yet and despite all the attacks still stands solid as a rock wth no proven errors.

Thanks for willing to look at the referecnes regardless of the outcome.

God bless

 

[Gendou Ikari]

2. The AV1611 does not teache Universal salvation but does teach an eternal hell. I stick with the book - never failed me or anybody else yet and despite all the attacks still stands solid as a rock wth no proven errors.

I could prove that it teaches both but that would be illegal on this forum. Maybe I'll try and do that in the near future.

And you can do some research (having an open mind and not clinging to any 'idols of the heart') by checking out: http://www.kjvonly.org/

When searching for the truth I do not try and hold on to any preconceived notions[Idols of the Heart]. I just want the truth and the truth shall set me free. Hey, I've come from a Roman Catholic, to a Protestant, and now to a Christian Universalist in about a year so...

In my view I think that all views should be check and weighed to see if they hold truth. ALL I WANT IS THE TRUTH OF GOD. :-D