Baby Steps for Revelation

[smaller]

Well I guess everything we say in this forum is guesswork in a way, so I find that hard to argue with, however, I do back it up quite a bit and I think my guesswork is a bit more grounded in the bible than yours. Ill show you why:

First you guess that Satan is the Beast, which is not correct. This is found here:

No guess on my part.

Scroll back up to post #3 in this thread JW, read it, and the GREAT RED DRAGON BEAST should be pretty easy to discern:

Revelation 12:3
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Is the 'great red dragon' Satan?

hmmm? Not hard to figure:

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

No questions there.

So, on the seven headed Satan above, how do we know it's a beast?

Revelation 13:1
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

That ties it altogether quite nicely JW.

If you can't see it, it is merely a reading comprehension issue.

It seems pretty clear that Satan and the Beast are two different folks, since you cant be put somewhere that you already are.

The characteristics of Satan, the seven headed beast is consistent right on down the line for anyone who can READ.

Sorry.

And if you didn't read the post about 'time/times/1/2 of time which obviously the details of which flew right by you, again, you are just not reading.

What can I say about that anyway? If you don't get it, you don't. Not my call.

s

 

[Deborah13]

Well, just where is THE TEMPTER? Why would we deny the location of same? This is not the territory of IMMUNITY we are handling, but the territory of GOOD FRUIT, the very first of which is HONESTY....

When HONESTY springs up from the ground, oh, what a pleasing sight!

Genesis 38:21
Then he asked the men of that place, saying, Where is the harlot, that was openly by the way side? And they said, There was no harlot in this place.

No, it was a child of God HIDDEN by the garment of the harlot to TRAP her rightful mate. Yet the blinded 'man' of O.T. Israel could not SEE WHO IT WAS! Even though it was his own daughter in law, the widow of his own passed son. The widow to whom he had promises unfulfilled. She forced him to the table did she not? Trapped him in THE TRUTH.

Here we see the conclusion with Judah facing the evil he had done to Tamar (palm tree, judgment), in honesty.

Genesis 38
26 Judah recognized them, and said, “She is more righteous than I, inasmuch as I did not give her to my son Shelah.” And he did not have relations with her again.

It might be noted that he was ready to burn her alive as a liar. Hmm...

 

[smaller]

Here we see the conclusion with Judah facing the evil he had done to Tamar (palm tree, judgment), in honesty.

Genesis 38
26 Judah recognized them, and said, “She is more righteous than I, inasmuch as I did not give her to my son Shelah.” And he did not have relations with her again.

Some of these OT accounts are so filled with meanings it's overwhelming. They are like 'old' wine. The longer they sit in our heart, the more rich they become.

Matthew 13:52
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

 

[smaller]

The 3 basic accounts from Matt. Mark and Luke take on a measure of 4 stanza's, 2 of which have been covered in brief in this thread.

The third, in order, first to the blinded populace:

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.

and the meanings of the same measures to the Disciples:

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

If you haven't figured out by now that stages 2 and 3 apply to those 'believers' past the initial blinded/stolen from stage are largely concerning believers read them all again. These matters are for believers understandings. The statements are not telling you as a believer about the blinded people.

We're talking about people who HEAR The Word in these accounts AND Jesus is telling 'believers' how to understand these matters for THEMSELVES.

s

 

[smaller]

Parable summary:

to the blinded masses and this time with the author's conclusion from Jesus to the Disciples immediately following, Matt Matt, Mark Mark, Luke Luke:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.
20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

It is quite interesting how each writer palette's in the various touches here. I underlined Luke's in particular for various reasons, primarily showing the bottom line to be a heart of honesty, goodness and patience as the track to an hundredfold.

Mark's overall account shows a close track through each transition by deploying the terms 'AND THESE ARE THEY' meaning the people in the prior become the people in the next showing all the way to the end:

14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

Matthew uses a series of 'He-But's'

18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

It is good to handle these matters from multiple angles. Various matters will come forth and reflect. The Word is like a JEWEL in this way, with many facets.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[JosyWales]

Well I guess everything we say in this forum is guesswork in a way, so I find that hard to argue with, however, I do back it up quite a bit and I think my guesswork is a bit more grounded in the bible than yours. Ill show you why:

First you guess that Satan is the Beast, which is not correct. This is found here:

No guess on my part.

Scroll back up to post #3 in this thread JW, read it, and the GREAT RED DRAGON BEAST should be pretty easy to discern:

Revelation 12:3
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Is the 'great red dragon' Satan?

hmmm? Not hard to figure:

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

No questions there.

So, on the seven headed Satan above, how do we know it's a beast?

Revelation 13:1
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

That ties it altogether quite nicely JW.

If you can't see it, it is merely a reading comprehension issue.

It seems pretty clear that Satan and the Beast are two different folks, since you cant be put somewhere that you already are.

The characteristics of Satan, the seven headed beast is consistent right on down the line for anyone who can READ.

Sorry.

And if you didn't read the post about 'time/times/1/2 of time which obviously the details of which flew right by you, again, you are just not reading.

What can I say about that anyway? If you don't get it, you don't. Not my call.

s

This guys pretty funny. I show him scripture that absolutely states that the Beast and False Prophet are not Satan, who by the way is the devil, and he ignores it, then tells ME I cant read.

Then when I post scripture that prove that the 42 months, the 1260 days and the 3 1/2 times are absolutely the same time period, and he ignores that as well.

Also in his big proof that the Beast and Satan are the same, he uses the fact that the beast and Satan both have access to 7 heads and 10 horns but missed one very important fact. Allow me to show you:

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

However, when the description of the Beast is given a bit later, it contains one very important difference that our friend smaller has overlooked:

Rev 13:1 ¶ And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Do you see it? In the first description of Satan, the 7 heads have the crowns, but in the description of the Beast it is the 10 Horns that have the crowns. This is important because Satan is involved with the Seven Angels and has access to all their viewpoints, while the Beast has the 10 horns who receive crowns as kings for one hour serving him as seen here:

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

So, as you can see, there is a difference in them, one that smaller seems to have overlooked.

Maybe he figures if he makes the font large and colorful enough, it will make it true.

 

[smaller]

This guys pretty funny. I show him scripture that absolutely states that the Beast and False Prophet are not Satan,

Obviously we have a conflict in scriptural statements then OR multiple seven headed beasts, ONE OF WHICH is Satan.

Which would you prefer?

who by the way is the devil, and he ignores it, then tells ME I cant read.

If you'd like to tackle the scriptures presented in my response 'specifically' please feel free to do so.

Then when I post scripture that prove that the 42 months, the 1260 days and the 3 1/2 times are absolutely the same time period, and he ignores that as well.

Maybe he figures if he makes the font large and colorful enough, it will make it true.

And maybe you aren't following along in the thread and need to go back to speculating in your own thread about that.

I enjoy critique. Most don't.

s

 

[reba]

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

 

[JosyWales]

Sorry, Reba, I didn't mean to laugh, I just thought there was some irony there, but Ill try not to be that way.

smaller, if you can rebut the scripture I have shown then please do. I thought I had done a pretty good job of rebutting yours but you have not addressed it.

 

[smaller]

Sorry, Reba, I didn't mean to laugh, I just thought there was some irony there, but Ill try not to be that way.

smaller, if you can rebut the scripture I have shown then please do. I thought I had done a pretty good job of rebutting yours but you have not addressed it.

There is an easy premise that was put in play in this thread about allegory/parable.

Did you bother to read and pick up what that is?

If so, how might that apply to the great dragon/satan/seven headed beast? If you read Mark 4:15 and understand associations then Satan will be part of any dissection of allegory UNLESS we are going to be seeing a literal sea monster, which would be quite fantastically absurd.

As to your timeline, I commented on how that same information applies there. If there is a party to the timeline such as SATAN in your 42 month dissection and SATAN has to be found out in the text via allegory what makes you think the timeline OF SATAN is not subject to similar rules that govern allegory?

If you can tell me how an unseen anti-Christ spirit is subject to literal only timelines then I accept that as a JOKE.

Trying to say, yeah, we know Satan by allegorical components but NOT the timeline of Satan, which MUST be literal, the dissections are going to waffle in a pick and choose ramble between literal and allegorical dissections.

I could get into a very long discussion about how allegory applies to parties unseen, such as Satan and what that means for TIMELINES. There are some rulz there as well. For example, do you know that because Satan was in the Garden and still is active, that Satan technically from that time in the Garden onward has been only ONE GENERATION...with many sub-children or children of the devil in that generation/kingdom/demonic family.

Now, is the GENERATION of Satan going to comply with LITERAL days? Uh, no. It's a completely different entity class that has to be viewed in an ENTIRELY non literal or external way.

Do you want to see A DAY of SATAN?

Ephesians 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Don't you see that the 'evil day' of Satan has been a perpetual day for his entire time? One long ugly evil DAY.


If you want to prove some external timeline legitimacy as it applies to Satan, I'd suggest this isn't the thread to do so as you have one already. And the idea of that is imho, quite entirely preposterous anyway.

s

 

[Deborah13]

Mark's overall account shows a close track through each transition by deploying the terms 'AND THESE ARE THEY' meaning the people in the prior become the people in the next showing all the way to the end:

I have always been able to see the people in the first group as unbelievers, pretty obvious, it clearly says so. But you are right about not clearly seeing the believers in the other groups. I had to see them as unbelievers in order to hold fast to what I believe about the faith that saves us, faith in the power of the cross and the power of the Lord to save us, not my righteousness (works, etc.).

I have struggled with this frankly because I could see myself in one of the other groups that had not moved to the last group, or had gone backwards, if that is possible, at one point in my life. So to me that meant one of two things. I was never saved to begin with or I had lost my salvation. Seeing I don't believe we can be born again, again, I was left....? Finally just gave it all up to God, your will not mine, I'll just move ahead as though I am saved, it's better than the alternative.

If I are to see this parable as a process, as some believers starting at different stages to begin with that's a big difference. Frankly, I like the idea of that, not just for myself but because, well yes for myself because it is how I very often see others. I just hate the idea of giving up on anyone and I tend to be a defender of "little puppies".

So as the student, I don't know that I am even coming close to what you are saying here.

I have no problem with the idea of evil in my fleshy soul but my spirit man is one with Christ and that I will not compromise on. I know I don't always behave as such as that evil is still there in my mind.
I'm also very aware that satan is alive and well, he does hiss and sometimes strikes but most of the time I'm out of range of the strike anyway, standing close to Jesus.

 

[smaller]

I have no problem with the idea of evil in my fleshy soul but my spirit man is one with Christ and that I will not compromise on. I know I don't always behave as such as that evil is still there in my mind.
I'm also very aware that satan is alive and well, he does hiss and sometimes strikes but most of the time I'm out of range of the strike anyway, standing close to Jesus.

The entire position of this thread is on the fact that Mark 4:15 happens to all of us, even as believers.

There, between the two parties, all Word is divided.

s