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Baptisims

atpollard

Member
Could you share the scripture you are referring to about being baptized by water and Spirit?

JLB
Not one scripture, but multiple scriptures teach baptism with the Spirit ....
  • [Mat 3:11 NASB] 11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
  • [Luk 3:16 NASB] 16 John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
  • [Jhn 1:33 NASB] 33 "I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.'
  • [Act 11:16 NASB] 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

and many more teach baptism with water ...
  • [Act 8:36-39 NASB] 36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?" 37 [And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."] 38 And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing.
  • [Act 10:47 NASB] 47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we [did,] can he?"
  • [Eph 5:26 NASB] 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
Thus we have ONE BAPTISM [Eph 4:5] of both WATER and SPIRIT ... For “unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)
 
Not one scripture, but multiple scriptures teach baptism with the Spirit ....
  • [Mat 3:11 NASB] 11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
  • [Luk 3:16 NASB] 16 John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
  • [Jhn 1:33 NASB] 33 "I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.'
  • [Act 11:16 NASB] 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

and many more teach baptism with water ...
  • [Act 8:36-39 NASB] 36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?" 37 [And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."] 38 And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing.
  • [Act 10:47 NASB] 47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we [did,] can he?"
  • [Eph 5:26 NASB] 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
Thus we have ONE BAPTISM [Eph 4:5] of both WATER and SPIRIT ... For “unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)


I agree multiple scriptures teach the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.


What I asked was scripture that reached baptism with water and Spirit.


Thus we have ONE BAPTISM [Eph 4:5] of both WATER and SPIRIT ... For “unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)


Actually there are three distinct and separate Baptism’s with three distinct and separate Baptizer’s.


Since this subject is off topic, but should be discussed, I’m moving it to a different thread.



JLB
 
Thus we have ONE BAPTISM [Eph 4:5] of both WATER and SPIRIT ... For “unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

This is a reference to being born again’, whereby we are baptized by the Spirit into Christ.


For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13


  • For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body


Being born again by the Spirit, we are joined to Christ, and are one spirit with Him.


But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17


In this baptism, the Holy Spirit is the Baptizer.



JLB
 

This is not so with water baptism.

Man baptizes with water.

for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:5


JLB
 
I am a Particular (it means Reformed) Baptist, so I can talk about baptisms until the Lord returns. What do you want to discuss ...
  • the work of the whole Trinity in baptism.
  • the symbolism of baptism.
  • the past-present-future nature of baptism.
  • the Biblical prerequisites for baptism.
  • baptism as the new circumcision.
  • can a person be saved without baptism?
  • Baptism by sprinkling or immersion.
  • Credo (believer’s) baptism vs Paedo (household) baptism.
 
Jesus is talking to Nicodemus about eternal principles of being in the Kingdom.
Baptism with water was introduced to call Israel back to walk the straight path through repentance and faith, because the Kingdom of Heaven was near.

Water is a symbol of purification, cleansing, making pure. The Holy Spirit is the communion with God, becoming acceptable to Him, being born into eternity.

So though John was baptising with water, he was continuing the need for purification which is throughout Jewish practice and the Mosaic law.

Jesus submitted to baptism, to show His purification. He did not need to be born again being the Lord himself, as part of the trinity.

Jesus appears to be talking about two symbols that talk of our elevation to the eternal from the lost.
 
This is a reference to being born again’, whereby we are baptized by the Spirit into Christ.


For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13


  • For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body


Being born again by the Spirit, we are joined to Christ, and are one spirit with Him.


But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17


In this baptism, the Holy Spirit is the Baptizer.



JLB
Water. Jesus could have mentioned blood, or repentance, or faith but He mentioned water.
It is purification that must take place. How can the Holy Spirit bring about change without this?
God's people are holy. If there is the holy spirit without holiness, then you have heaven with sinners.
Jesus forgave people their sins and healed them, telling them to sin no more. Washing, cleansing is not the problem, staying purified is.

Some feel washing is impossible, because there view is salvation is just being clean, so do not need God. But salvation is communion while being clean. The tension is where is the heart, in communion and cleansing, or in sin and self indulgence.

Water and the holy spirit are the two dynamics, cleansing and communion.
 
It is purification that must take place. How can the Holy Spirit bring about change without this?

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9


JLB
 
How does natural water bring about spiritual birth?




JLB
When Jesus says water he is this view is refering to purification not the physical water, because water was used to cleanse the body in purification rituals.

Jesus talks about yeast as a symbol of teaching or salt as preservation of preaching about love and living it. It makes Jesus examples not immediately obvious
 
When Jesus says water he is this view is refering to purification not the physical water, because water was used to cleanse the body in purification rituals.

Jesus talks about yeast as a symbol of teaching or salt as preservation of preaching about love and living it. It makes Jesus examples not immediately obvious


Yes, He talks about many things.


Thank goodness for His Spirit, that helps us to understand, and give us the grace to face the daily challenges of our life.


I don’t fully understand what you believe about baptism.


I see from the scriptures that there is three distinct baptisms with three different baptizers.


How about you?


Maybe atpollard could share some of what he believes about the different baptisms we see in scripture?



JLB
 
Thus we have ONE BAPTISM [Eph 4:5] of both WATER and SPIRIT ... For “unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)


I disagree that John 3:5 is referring to baptism, when the context is clearly birth.

Physical and natural birth.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


However, we have been over this, so no need to repeat it.


Thus we have ONE BAPTISM [Eph 4:5] of both WATER and SPIRIT ...


There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Ephesians 4:4-6


In the context of what Paul is saying, there is one baptism by which we are baptized into one body.

Paul is emphasizing unity; the unity of the Spirit, showing that we all have in common, things that are meant to unify us in a common belief.

Verse 3 sets the tone and this unity is emphasized throughout the chapter as he uses the analogy one body with many members...


endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
Ephesians 4:3-5


He continues this theme of the unity of the Spirit as the one body —


And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16


Paul taught that we are baptized by one Spirit into one body,
the body of Christ.


For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13


So in this regard, in this frame of context, there is one baptism, by which we are as individuals, are baptized into one body.


We know from other passages, that there is certainly more than one baptism, and so it’s here that I would like to discuss all the scriptures about the different baptisms in scripture, with a focus on the one who doing the baptizing.


Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19


Paul uses shadows and types from the Old Testament to emphasize the different baptisms.


Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4


Key Passage:

  • all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,

Here we see the three baptisms clearly.


for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now. Acts 1:5



Baptism with water is a separate and distinct baptism from the baptism with the Holy Spirit, with different Baptizers at different times.


Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17


  • For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.


These had been baptized in water through the ministry of Phillip the evangelist.


The Apostles had to come down from Jerusalem for the purpose of baptizing these people with the Holy Spirit.


  • Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.


There are more scriptures about the different baptisms, but I will stop here as this post is getting to long.



JLB
 
We know from other passages, that there is certainly more than one baptism, and so it’s here that I would like to discuss all the scriptures about the different baptisms in scripture, with a focus on the one who doing the baptizing.
God and man are doing the baptizing.

Salvation is 100% monergistic ... it is God and God alone that effects the salvation of man.
Baptism is synergistic ... God always works through men to accomplish His baptism.

[1 Corinthians 10:1-5 NASB] 1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.​

Let’s start with the first baptism.

Who chose and sent Moses to deliver them?
Who supplied the Cloud that covered them?
Who parted the sea that Baptized them?
Who Cleansed the nation in the wilderness by killing off the generation without faith and preserving Moses, Joshua, Caleb and the next generation?

God did the Baptizing!
By His word, by the fire of trials, by the power of His Spirit.

Did God do any of it without choosing to operate through people? No.
Moses went to Egypt as God’s messenger.
The people voluntarily painted the door posts and followed the cloud.
The sea parted when men obeyed the commands of God.
God used men with swords to slay the idol worshipers in the wilderness.
Joshua and Caleb proved themselves faithful, first in words when they gave a good report, and again years later when they led the conquest of the promised land.

Thus in every case, the Baptism was synergistic and the salvation was of God.
 
Yes, He talks about many things.


Thank goodness for His Spirit, that helps us to understand, and give us the grace to face the daily challenges of our life.


I don’t fully understand what you believe about baptism.


I see from the scriptures that there is three distinct baptisms with three different baptizers.


How about you?


Maybe atpollard could share some of what he believes about the different baptisms we see in scripture?



JLB
Do I need to know quite what baptism means from a theological perspective, except when you believe get baptised as a testimony to ones faith and Jesus.

I do not believe baptism makes you a believer, or saves you, or washes sin away. John the Baptist implied his baptism brought forgiveness of sins.

Which also raises the issue, does forgiveness of sins make you a believer? And the answer seems to be no. It is knowing Jesus and following Him because you believe and love Him, that makes you a believer and saved.

Pelagianism implies a belief you can be good without God, but in the true sense of good, that is impossible. As I have said before, people appear to think we only need the cross because we cannot walk righteously or obey the law. If we could we would not need Jesus. But I think this is the dynamic issue. Relationships found our behaviour, not our behaviour founds our relationships. Our behaviour destroys good relationships, but behaving well with someone does not mean you have a relationship with them at all, you could just be being polite.

God is the God of those who love Him with everything they are. This is not a passive, take it or leave it kind of people, it is a people who dwell in God and His ways, and desire that which He desires. It is why Pelagianism is absurd, or easy believism, because both do not aspire to know who is worthy of Praise, Honour and glory in the universe. And without this relationship we are lost when we meet Him.
God bless you.
 
Jesus used a simple kind of logic.
If one loved the Father, you would love Jesus. If we know how to live then our hearts will warm and be bound to Him.

So if a Pelagianist says they can be good without God, they actually do not know God, because by being good they would love and be bound to Him.

There are some fundamentals about being open, loving and empathetic, which mean when you meet the Lord He will warm ones heart. It is why those of the pharisees who desired to hate and kill Jesus, simply did not have God in them, because this attitude arises because they do not have love or know God. It is similarly true if one says "love your neighbour as oneself" yet one is called an anti-Christ, the one speaking does not know love or Jesus, because they could not say or oppose such a statement.

I would not have believed this was possible until this precisely happened to me. It is why the emotional meaning of words and how they convict or set us free matters fundamentally. I have seen how the emotional veil grows. The speaker defines who are their friends, then puts the definition of an enemy above this, and says once someone is defined as an enemy, the rest of what is shared does not matter. So the individual will say they agree with loving ones neighbour, but one as the speaker cannot know this because you are the enemy, so ones view of the statement is wrong. They will then explain why they project failure onto one, and justify their condemnation.

This applies to baptisms, because we need love and the Holy Spirit to see things correctly, and this makes it important to know these things happen through our walk, rather than us being aware of it. Without the baptism of the Holy Spirit we cannot be believers, but this comes when we come to faith and confess Jesus is our Lord.
 
Who chose and sent Moses to deliver them?

all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
1 Corinthians 10:2



The Lord sent Moses.

Moses is a type of the Lord Jesus Christ.

We are Baptized into Christ, by the Spirit.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13


In this baptism, the Holy Spirit is the Baptizer.

Who supplied the Cloud that covered them?

all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
1 Corinthians 10:2

The Lord supplied the Cloud.

The Cloud is a type of the Spirit.

In this Baptism, Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is the Baptizer.

I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. Mark 1:8


Who parted the sea that Baptized them?

all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
1 Corinthians 10:2

The Lord parted the Red Sea.

The sea is a type of water baptism.

Man baptizes us in water.

for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now. Acts 1:5



There are three separate Baptism’s.

There are three separate Baptizer’s.



JLB
 
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