Baptisims

[JLB]

Without the baptism of the Holy Spirit we cannot be believers, but this comes when we come to faith and confess Jesus is our Lord.

I disagree.

1. When we are born again, we are baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit.
2. Then we are baptized in water by man.
3. Then we are baptized with the Holy Spirit by Jesus.

JLB

 

[PeterJens]

I disagree.

1. When we are born again, we are baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit.
2. Then we are baptized in water by man.
3. Then we are baptized with the Holy Spirit by Jesus.

JLB

What do you mean baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit?
John the baptist said Jesus came to baptise people with the Holy Spirit.
As Paul describes, if we do not have the Holy Spirit we are not in Christ.
The sign that the gentiles had been accepted by God was that they were baptised in the Holy Spirit as the disciples were, so if God accepted gentiles so should the apostles.

 

[JLB]

What do you mean baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit?

Before we are baptized in water by man, we are born again, or saved, regenerated by believing the Gospel.

This is when we come to be “in Christ”; ie baptized into Christ by the Spirit.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13

With this baptism, the Holy Spirit is the Baptizer.



JLB

 

[JLB]

John the baptist said Jesus came to baptise people with the Holy Spirit.

Yes sir I agree.

That is the baptism with the Holy Spirit, with Jesus as Baptizer.



JLB

 

[JLB]

As Paul describes, if we do not have the Holy Spirit we are not in Christ.

Actually he said this —

Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The sign that the gentiles had been accepted by God was that they were baptised in the Holy Spirit as the disciples were, so if God accepted gentiles so should the apostles.

How do we know when someone has received the baptism with the Holy Spirit?

 

[PeterJens]

How do we know when someone has received the baptism with the Holy Spirit?

They confess Jesus is the saviour come in the flesh, who died and rose again for the forgiveness of sins. What has confused these issues is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit flowing from peoples hearts in gifts of the Spirit and in praise. This has often been called baptism of the Holy Spirit, but now I would call it the manifestation of the Spirit that is in the believers heart.

Being born again is a reality conviction in our hearts about who Jesus is to us. When Jesus goes from a testimony to being our Saviour.

I think we both agree with this, so I wonder where is the disagreement, other than perhaps how we express this reality. God bless you.

 

[PeterJens]

Baptism in the Spirit.

In the 70's I became aware of the charismatic movement, where people were anointed in the Holy Spirit, and spoke words of faith with depth and from their hearts. What confused the believers about these folk, is they both spoke the same words and possibly had the same experiences. But the charismatic folk felt what they had was a different faith reality and the other believers were is someway only intellectual believers.

What is real is both parties are born again, and for the charismatic folk, the feelings were overwhelming. Unfortunately this often split churches and new fellowships were started. Within 4 or 5 years as the emotional fervour faded, the individuals drifted away, because their faith became the emotional euphoria, more than the walk in their daily lives.

But in truth, those who are the elect, walk on. God bless you

 

[JLB]

They confess Jesus is the saviour come in the flesh, who died and rose again for the forgiveness of sins.

That’s how a person is saved, in which they are baptized into Christ by the Spirit, in which the Spirit is the One doing the baptizing.


The baptism with the Holy Spirit, is where Jesus Baptizes us with the Holy Spirit, in which Jesus is the One doing the baptizing. This baptism is after a person is saved; born again.



Then there is baptism in water, whereby a man baptizes us in water, in which man is the One doing the baptizing.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Baptism in the Spirit.

In the 70's I became aware of the charismatic movement, where people were anointed in the Holy Spirit, and spoke words of faith with depth and from their hearts. What confused the believers about these folk, is they both spoke the same words and possibly had the same experiences. But the charismatic folk felt what they had was a different faith reality and the other believers were is someway only intellectual believers.

What is real is both parties are born again, and for the charismatic folk, the feelings were overwhelming. Unfortunately this often split churches and new fellowships were started. Within 4 or 5 years as the emotional fervour faded, the individuals drifted away, because their faith became the emotional euphoria, more than the walk in their daily lives.

But in truth, those who are the elect, walk on. God bless you

The baptism in the Spirit is where a believer is baptized by Jesus with the same results as the day of Pentecost, whereby there is evidence that is seen and heard.


Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33


Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17

• For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

JLB

 

[PeterJens]

That’s how a person is saved, in which they are baptized into Christ by the Spirit, in which the Spirit is the One doing the baptizing.


The baptism with the Holy Spirit, is where Jesus Baptizes us with the Holy Spirit, in which Jesus is the One doing the baptizing. This baptism is after a person is saved; born again.



Then there is baptism in water, whereby a man baptizes us in water, in which man is the One doing the baptizing.



JLB

It is interesting suggesting what is done when. I am reluctant to be specific about something the apostles were not sure about.

I say this because the spirit was breathed onto the disciples, and then he fell at Pentecost. Paul emphasises the presence in the believer. Some knew the baptism of John, and then were baptized in the spirit.
Clearly some are baptized without preaching and the laying on hands, so it is in God's gift. And that is where I leave it. God bless you.

 

[JLB]

It is interesting suggesting what is done when. I am reluctant to be specific about something the apostles were not sure about.

I say this because the spirit was breathed onto the disciples, and then he fell at Pentecost. Paul emphasises the presence in the believer. Some knew the baptism of John, and then were baptized in the spirit.
Clearly some are baptized without preaching and the laying on hands, so it is in God's gift. And that is where I leave it. God bless you.

How the Lord chooses to baptize believers with the Holy Spirit, whether through the laying on of hands or not, is up to Him.

That’s not the point of my post.

My intent is to show from the scriptures that there are three specific baptisms, and three specific baptizers.


I have been baptized in water and baptized with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

Every believer desperately needs this and the prayer language that God desires to give to His children.

It’s called the promise of the Father.


Praying in the Spirit is an amazing thing, that is for all believers.


However, false teaching and immature Charismatic Christians have turned people away from this amazing promise, and the power to live the Christian life.


“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!” Luke 11:9-13

• If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

God bless you.


JLB

 

[PeterJens]

How the Lord chooses to baptize believers with the Holy Spirit, whether through the laying on of hands or not, is up to Him.

That’s not the point of my post.

My intent is to show from the scriptures that there are three specific baptisms, and three specific baptizers.


I have been baptized in water and baptized with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

Every believer desperately needs this and the prayer language that God desires to give to His children.

It’s called the promise of the Father.


Praying in the Spirit is an amazing thing, that is for all believers.


However, false teaching and immature Charismatic Christians have turned people away from this amazing promise, and the power to live the Christian life.


“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!” Luke 11:9-13

• If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

God bless you.


JLB

Speaking in tongues is great, but minor when put alongside repentance and the heart.

Quite a few women in my church love Joyce Meyer but do not know her latter rain theology etc. These forums demonstrate the true conflict lines, which often invalidate the gospel.

I praise God despite it all His truth remains the same. Amen

 

[JLB]

Speaking in tongues is great, but minor when put alongside repentance and the heart.

I have found that a good prayer life is essential for repentance and matters of the heart.


Praying in the Spirit is an essential type of prayer for one’s private devotion.


Praying in the Spirit is a way to keep ourselves built up on our most holy faith.


For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 1 Corinthians 14:14


But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. Jude 20-21




JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Not one scripture, but multiple scriptures teach baptism with the Spirit ....

• [Mat 3:11 NASB] 11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
• [Luk 3:16 NASB] 16 John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
• [Jhn 1:33 NASB] 33 "I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.'
• [Act 11:16 NASB] 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

None of these verses cited above promises anyone today (or commands) anyone today baptism with the Holy Spirit. For example, Mt 3:11 says Christ will baptize with the Holy Spirit but the verse does not specify who Christ will baptize with the HS. People assume the second use of the pronoun "you" refers to themselves but contextually that cannot be proven. So baptism with the the Holy Spirit cannot be the "one baptism" of Eph 4:4-5. The Holy Spirit being poured out upon 'all flesh" was a prophecy of Joel that was fulfilled (ended, ceased) some 2000 years ago and does not occur today.

 

[JLB]

The Holy Spirit being poured out upon 'all flesh" was a prophecy of Joel that was fulfilled (ended, ceased) some 2000 years ago and does not occur today.

So your saying Jesus no longer baptizes people with the Holy Spirit?


Please post the chapter and verse that says this.



JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

So your saying Jesus no longer baptizes people with the Holy Spirit?


Please post the chapter and verse that says this.



JLB

Again, Joel prophesied God would pour out His Spirit upon 'all flesh' with all flesh referring to the two groups that made up mankind, Jew and Gentile and not each and every individual (Joel 2:28). Peter cites this prophecy in Acts 2:16-17 tying it directly to the Lord pouring out the Spirit upon the Apostles (Jews). The other instance the Lord pours out the Spirit was upon the Gentiles in Acts 10. Peter also ties the Holy Ghost being poured out upon the Gentiles to "the beginning" (Pentecost in Acts 2) where the Spirit was poured out on the Apostles (Acts 11:15-16)

Therefore all flesh, Jew and Gentile, had the Spirit poured out upon them fulfilling (ceased, ended) Joel's prophecy.

Possibly as many as 10 years passed from Acts 2 to Acts 10. If the Lord pouring out His spirit upon 'all flesh' was a common event then Peter could cite many instances where this happen to make his point. But he had to go back about 10 years to cite the only other instance this pouring out happened. Thereby this pouring out of the Spirit had nothing to do with the conversion of people then or today.

No one today can point to a single verse that shows they have been promised this pouring out of the Spirit not can provide any objective proof it has happened to them.

 

[JLB]

Again, Joel prophesied God would pour out His Spirit upon 'all flesh' with all flesh referring to the two groups that made up mankind, Jew and Gentile and not each and every individual (Joel 2:28). Peter cites this prophecy in Acts 2:16-17 tying it directly to the Lord pouring out the Spirit upon the Apostles (Jews).

I see you must “redefine“ all flesh to somehow mean something other that all flesh.

Then you also must “redefine” what the last days mean also..


We are surely living in the last days, as Jesus will be coming soon. If was coming soon in 90 AD, hw much more will He be coming soon in these last days.

The Lord says it this way through Zechariah —


“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10


JLB



PS. Ephesians was written around 62 AD.

Hebrews was written around 64 AD, and Acts was written between 70 and 90 AD.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I see you must “redefine“ all flesh to somehow mean something other that all flesh.

Then you also must “redefine” what the last days mean also..


We are surely living in the last days, as Jesus will be coming soon. If was coming soon in 90 AD, hw much more will He be coming soon in these last days.

The Lord says it this way through Zechariah —


“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10


JLB



PS. Ephesians was written around 62 AD.

Hebrews was written around 64 AD, and Acts was written between 70 and 90 AD.

If 'all flesh' refers to literally all flesh then not only will each and every person who ever lived, even animals since animals have flesh. Jew and Greek are referred to as 'all' in Gal 3:28.
Since only the Lord baptizes with the Holy Spirit and the only two places found in the Bible this happen was with the Apostles (Jews) Acts 2 and Gentiles Acts 10. There was also miraculous manifestation involved with this pouring out if the Spirit (tongue speaking) but not all Christians in the first century had a miraculous abilities, some had none at all 1 Cor 12:29-31. All miraculous signs have ceased since about the end of the first century.

The last days, the Christian dispensation, began in Acts 2 at Pentecost with Peter preaching the first recorded gospel sermon and men entering the kingdom/church.

Zech 12:10 is not about Joel's prophecy of God's Spirit being poured out upon every single person who ever lived.
Those who obeyed Acts 2:38 in repenting and being baptized for remission of sins were recipients of grace and mercy (Zech 13:1). Spirit of grace does not mean baptized with the Holy Spirit accompanied by the miraculous.
The spirit conveys grace and supplication, God will show the Jews He has grace towards the them even though they had 'pierced' the Christ. And they would 'mourn' for Him and 'grieve bitterly' for Him bringing about their repentance.

"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

The meaning of the verse is there would come a day (Pentecost-Acts 2) the Jews would mourn and bitterly grieve over Christ whom they had pierced. At that time God would pour upon (an abundant amount) the spirit of grace and supplication.

"Grace' refers to the sacrifice Christ made for man shedding His blood that takes away sins.
'Supplication' meaning to pray, petition God for His grace to forgive sins.

Hence the Jews in Acts 2 in supplication would pray/petition - "call upon the name of the Lord" (Acts 2:21) and would receive grace (remission of sins - Acts 2:38) which follows the prophesied plan of Zech 12:10 of grace being conveyed to those who in supplication call upon the name of the Lord.

Nothing here about the Lord baptizing each and every Jew with the Holy Spirit.

(The term "Spirit of grace" is used also in Heb 10:29. The Spirit is referred to by this term for the Spirit is the giver of grace not that the Spirit Himself is given to each and all men. But the grace that the Spirit gives has been extended to all men Titus 2:10)

 

[JLB]

If 'all flesh' refers to literally all flesh then not only will each and every person who ever lived, even animals since animals have flesh. Jew and Greek are referred to as 'all' in Gal 3:28.

Jew and Gentile encompasses all.

All who believe and there obey.