Baptism - Salvation - Bible Contradictions ... ???

[duval]

Amen Follower of Christ. And Paul said +---when ye read ye may understand---+ Eph. 3:4/

 

[bstrong]

This really involves the entire faith/works controversy. Baptism, if done for salvation, becomes a work, just as you said vja. However, this doesn't mean that baptism is not necessary. Not all that is necessary has to do with salvation.

There are different types of "works" mentioned in the bible including : Works of the law (Romans 3:28), works done to earn something (Ephesians 2:8-9) and works of obedience (John 6:28-29).

John 6:28-29 (NKJV) -- "28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Having faith/believing in Jesus is a work as told in John 6:29. So believing, if done for salvation becomes a work as well. Works of God are things that God has required/commanded of us which include: believing, repentence (acts 17:30) public confession of faith (Romans 10:9-10) and baptism for the remission of sins (mark 16:16, acts 2:38, 22:16). These are acts of faith by which we receive salvation, not earn it.

Does our faith earn us salvation? No. Repenting does not earn our salvation either etc. Its God's mercy that saves us (titus 3:5).

Rev. 2:26 - 26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations'

I look at water baptism as a mode of transfer because it reminds me of Jesus healing the blind man in John 9 (note: I’m not using this verse to symbolize baptism). Where Christ could easily have just healed him on the spot but instead Jesus made mud from his own spit, applied it to the man’s eyes and told him to go to the Siloam pool to wash it off in order to be healed. It’s not the mud and it’s not the water that healed, it was Christ. It was both physical and spiritual.

Did the blind man earn his vision? The gift is free; go “here†get “thisâ€Â. It was obedient faith, a commandment and what was needed to be healed. [Similar to Noah and the ark where God, generally speaking, told him “build an ark†> “save yourself†(1 peter 3:20)]. Did the blind man suddenly make himself see by his own actions? Did Noah save himself by his own actions? No, it was God’s mercy and grace. Baptism is just showing up at the right place with an obedient servant’s heart and let God do the work.

~Bstrong

 

[vja4Him]

Baptism is a physical work .... Believing, repenting, confessing are spiritual works until salvation. Baptism is an outward sign to others that we have believed in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

When we are immersed in the water, that symbolizes that our old self has died, and wehen we come up from the water, symbolizes that we have new life in Jesus.

It seems that some people are so intent on doing something themselves .... Why can't you trust in the work of salvation that Jesus finished on the cross ... ???

 

[francisdesales]

Baptism is a physical work .... Believing, repenting, confessing are spiritual works until salvation. Baptism is an outward sign to others that we have believed in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

When we are immersed in the water, that symbolizes that our old self has died, and wehen we come up from the water, symbolizes that we have new life in Jesus.

It seems that some people are so intent on doing something themselves .... Why can't you trust in the work of salvation that Jesus finished on the cross ... ???

Doesn't the Scriptures tell us that it is through Baptism that the work of Christ is APPLIED to us??? Thus, Paul agrees with Peter when Peter says we are saved through baptism. Christ's saving work is applied to us during the Baptismal ritual.

See Romans 6:1-6.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

The thief on the cross was not baptized, he was saved. John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. That is what water baptism is. You don't need to be baptized in water to be saved. It is an outward expression of an inward committment. Even if you were baptized in water, that still wouldn't guarantee your sincerity in the faith. God tries the heart, not the outward. What you are talking about is not much different than killing a thousand bullocks. God didn't approve of all there burnt offerings at all, because He looks on the heart. It takes faith to please him, not a tub of water.

I would agree. But how can you explain the differnt scriptures, some saying to be baptized for salvation, and others not mentioning baptism, but faith for salvation?

Because Baptism is also an act of faith. We do not see the Holy Spirit come down upon us from heaven, as John saw the Spirit come upon Christ. However, we trust that the Spirit does - by faith. Without this faith, the works of the Spirit within us will not blossom. The sower and the seed provides a good analogy on how God's grace falls upon people and the "effectiveness" will ultimately require a faith response from man.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

And what about passages mentioning the confession of Christ or repentance to the exclusion of mentioning faith or baptism???? There are times when the part is made to stand for the whole.

God bless,
duval

According to the Didache, written about the same time as the Gospels, the "confession of Christ" is part of the ritual of Baptism. Water was poured on the candidate and they confessed their belief in Christ and rejection of Satan. Thus, a number of commentaries note that the confession of Christ (in Romans, for example) refers to a Baptismal confession, an act of faith that one was being baptized into the Paschal Mystery, the Death and Resurrection of Christ.

Regards

 

[follower of Christ]

Baptism is a physical work .... Believing, repenting, confessing are spiritual works until salvation. Baptism is an outward sign to others that we have believed in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

When we are immersed in the water, that symbolizes that our old self has died, and wehen we come up from the water, symbolizes that we have new life in Jesus.

It seems that some people are so intent on doing something themselves .... Why can't you trust in the work of salvation that Jesus finished on the cross ... ???

Agreed.

Scripture overall, not just ONE verse, shows that faith is what saves...and works are a result of that faith.
Acts shows us clearly that BELIEF saves, not water baptism.

And leading them outside, he said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved, and your household.
(Acts 16:30-31 MKJV)

Same as John 3:16;

For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
(John 3:16 MKJV)

The *requirement* for salvation is not water baptism. The *requirement* is belief/faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Water baptism therefore is an "outward sign" of our new found faith. We do it because Jesus said to

 

[follower of Christ]

Because Baptism is also an act of faith.

Well waddayaknow...we agree on one small point.

I agree that baptism is a 'act of faith' because if the person had no faith there would be no reason to get baptized.
I was baptized in water in 1985 when I was born again to show that faith to the world.
Had I not been able to be baptised for whatever reason, I dont think God would have refused my admission into heaven

 

[francisdesales]

Because Baptism is also an act of faith.

Well waddayaknow...we agree on one small point.

You're wrong - we agree on a LOT of 'small points'. Don't let our last discussion bias that determination.

;)

I agree that baptism is a 'act of faith' because if the person had no faith there would be no reason to get baptized.

Perhaps, although people sometimes get baptized just to "join the club". God is operative, but man must respond to God's graces. Otherwise, one "grieves the Holy Spirit".

I was baptized in water in 1985 when I was born again to show that faith to the world.
Had I not been able to be baptised for whatever reason, I dont think God would have refused my admission into heaven

[/quote]

We believe God is not bound by the sacrament, so certainly, God can choose to save whom He wills, with or without the sacrament. I think God would take into consideration whether the person actually rejected baptism or whether he was just ignorant and "would have" been baptized if given the opportunity. Certainly, God would know.

Regards

 

[follower of Christ]

We believe God is not bound by the sacrament, so certainly, God can choose to save whom He wills, with or without the sacrament.

Thats good to know at least

I do worry about some tho.
There is one gent I debate in the MDR arena, well used to, he seems to have disappeared off the face of the planet at this point....but he is dead set against water baptism entirely. I dont mean like he just doesnt want to get wet, but literally if someone gets baptized its similar to the Galatians and their trying to be justified by law.

In many of the threads Ive seen this particular man in, he seems almost to have a hatred of water baptism.
I just cant fathom that attitude. While I dont believe that the unbaptized man is going to hell, I certain cant comprehend the man not having an overwhelming desire to be baptized in water when he becomes born again. It was one of the first things that I WANTED to do as a new believer.

It just seems entirely foreign to me that a believer wouldnt be counting the seconds until they were baptized.

 

[vja4Him]

That's not the way that I interpret the scriptures. If baptism is also required for salvatioin, then the Romans 5:9 should read differently. Here is what the Bible says in Romans 5:9 --

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Just add right after "blood," "and baptism," and there you have it ... !!!

 

[vja4Him]

I ran into somebody on a forum (can't remember which forum) who claims that baptism is not Biblical, but rather was added later on, and instituted by the Catholic church. I'll try to find the thread ....

There are some really wacko teachings out there ... And somebody, sometimes many people, will follow just about any teaching(s) ....

We believe God is not bound by the sacrament, so certainly, God can choose to save whom He wills, with or without the sacrament.

Thats good to know at least

I do worry about some tho.
There is one gent I debate in the MDR arena, well used to, he seems to have disappeared off the face of the planet at this point....but he is dead set against water baptism entirely. I dont mean like he just doesnt want to get wet, but literally if someone gets baptized its similar to the Galatians and their trying to be justified by law.

In many of the threads Ive seen this particular man in, he seems almost to have a hatred of water baptism.
I just cant fathom that attitude. While I dont believe that the unbaptized man is going to hell, I certain cant comprehend the man not having an overwhelming desire to be baptized in water when he becomes born again. It was one of the first things that I WANTED to do as a new believer.

It just seems entirely foreign to me that a believer wouldnt be counting the seconds until they were baptized.

 

[vja4Him]

Receive Holy Ghost - Before You Are Saved ... ???

Can you receive the Holy Ghost before you are saved?

Acts chapter 10 records that people received the Holy Ghost before they were baptized. If baptism is necessary for salvation, then the unsaved were receiving the Holy Ghost.

That doesn't seem possible .... I don't believe that unsaved people can received the Holy Ghost, do you ... ???

Obviously, they must have been saved -- first -- then after they were saved, they were baptized ....

 

[justvisiting]

The thief on the cross being saved had nothing to do with the law of Moses.
There is not one Jew or Jewish proselyte that was ever saved by the law of
Moses. The thief was saved because he believed in the testator of the new
testament. You should read Hebrews 10... by the way I have two years of
Bible College. Washings and ordinances could not purge anyone from sin.
They believed on Him that was to come. If you know anything about the Deity
of Christ, you will know that He visited them in the old testament. Yes,
the Son... who is eternal... Alpha and Omega... who being in the form of
God thought it not robbery to be equal with God... who is God manifest in
the flesh... who by Him all things were created... yes the SON.(John 1)
Read John 1 for that one. He visited with Abraham in the heat of the day.
He visited with Job in the whirlwind.

Going back to the original question. Is baptism in Water... necessary for
salvation...NO.
Is baptism into the family of God necessary for salvation...YES absolutely.
But you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost and with fire. Nevertheless,
I am not against baptism in water. It is just another way to confess
Christ. Not an essential act though.
The basic tenant of Hebrews 10 makes it clear THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY ....
FAITH. There were many Hebrews in the old testament that weren't saved.
Being a Jew doesn't mean a thing. The Just are those that waited for the
promise of His coming... By FAITH.

 

[Tina]

The thief on the cross was not baptized, he was saved.

How do you know that the thief on the cross was not baptized ?

 

[duval]

Hi Tina

Good point! The thief could have had John's baptism. Even Jesus' diciples baptied more than John before the cross.

God bless,
duval

 

[bstrong]

That's not the way that I interpret the scriptures. If baptism is also required for salvatioin, then the Romans 5:9 should read differently. Here is what the Bible says in Romans 5:9 --

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Just add right after "blood," "and baptism," and there you have it ... !!!

My interpretation of verse 9 is that Christ's blood covers our sins because he died on the cross. It is totally seperate from the faith part (our part) of salvation, it just remarks that Christ's blood paid our debt.

According to Romans 5:1 we are "justified by faith". There are acts of obedient faith such as believing, repentence, public confession of faith, baptism then there is no contradiction between verse 1 and verse 9.

Can you receive the Holy Ghost before you are saved?

Acts chapter 10 records that people received the Holy Ghost before they were baptized. If baptism is necessary for salvation, then the unsaved were receiving the Holy Ghost.

That doesn't seem possible .... I don't believe that unsaved people can received the Holy Ghost, do you ... ???

Obviously, they must have been saved -- first -- then after they were saved, they were baptized ....

In Acts 10:6 An angel appeared to Cornelius and told him that someone named Peter was coming who would tell him what he needed to do to be saved. In the same manner, Acts chapter 11 verse 14 recalls the angel saying Simon Peter "will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved."

According to Peter's account of what happened that day in Acts 11:15 the holy spirit came upon them as he began to speak. If the spirit came on them as he was beginning to speak Cornelius' household had not even heard the message of salvation yet, How could he have even been saved let alone baptized. If he had not heard the message he wouldn't believe, he wouldn't repent etc. This is an example in the bible where the Spirit fell on someone not for the purpose of remission of sins, but rather to show the jews that "unclean" people (gentiles) could receive the spirit too, that this gift (salvation) is for everyone irregardless of bloodline. In acts 11:15 peter compares it to the Holy Spirit baptism that fell on the apostles at pentecost. But remember what the angel said in Acts 11:13-14 "...call for Simon whose surname is Peter, who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved." Peter continued preaching the gospel of Christ which included, among other things, a command to be baptized in Acts 10:47-48.

As an aside, there are a few other examples of the Holy spirit coming upon people (not quite the same thing, as here though - as the cornelius story harkens back to pentecost and the holy spirit baptism) for purposes other than salvation. One example is Saul in 1 Samuel 10:10 which says "When they came there to the hill, there was a group of prophets to meet him; then the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them." The next verse continues with the people being like whoa what happened to this dude, is he a prophet too.

The thief on the cross was not baptized, he was saved.

I agree with this. I have no doubt Jesus had the power to save people in person while on earth. However, the Thief on the cross was saved under the old covenant. Matthew 26:28 mentions the shedding of Christ's blood forming a new covenant that allows our sin to be covered by his blood... we are justified by his blood (Romans 5:9). We can't be justified by his blood if Jesus has not died yet (his blood had not been shed). Today, we live under this new covenant.

In addition, Baptism does not apply to the thief on the cross because baptism for remission of sins had not been commanded by Jesus yet. It was commanded during the great commission in Matthew 28:16-20. Peter relays this message to the people in acts 2:38. If we are baptized into Christ's death and raised to walk in newness of life (Romans 6), allowing his blood to cover our sins, again why would the command to be baptized apply to the thief when Christ had not died or been raised from the dead yet?

 

[francisdesales]

In many of the threads Ive seen this particular man in, he seems almost to have a hatred of water baptism. I just cant fathom that attitude. While I dont believe that the unbaptized man is going to hell, I certain cant comprehend the man not having an overwhelming desire to be baptized in water when he becomes born again. It was one of the first things that I WANTED to do as a new believer.

It just seems entirely foreign to me that a believer wouldnt be counting the seconds until they were baptized.

Such a man as you describe has been improperly trained in the ways of the Lord, whether by a false preacher or his own personal readings... It is a sad thing to see, the lose of joy over such a silly attitude towards rituals in general.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Doesn't the Scriptures tell us that it is through Baptism that the work of Christ is APPLIED to us??? Thus, Paul agrees with Peter when Peter says we are saved through baptism. Christ's saving work is applied to us during the Baptismal ritual.

See Romans 6:1-6.

That's not the way that I interpret the scriptures. If baptism is also required for salvatioin, then the Romans 5:9 should read differently. Here is what the Bible says in Romans 5:9 --

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Just add right after "blood," "and baptism," and there you have it ... !!!

Like I said, we are justified by His blood when we accept Him and make a faith proclamation during our baptism... This is what Paul means when he says, shortly after the verse you cite:

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Romans 6:3-6

As you can see, Paul tells us we are buried with Christ and His Crucifixion BY BAPTISM... If you are not "buried with Him", how will you be like Him in His resurrection???

I ask you to reflect on the underlined parts of this citation, especially. Note HOW we are buried with HIm and the end result of that burying...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I ran into somebody on a forum (can't remember which forum) who claims that baptism is not Biblical, but rather was added later on, and instituted by the Catholic church. I'll try to find the thread ....

Baptism quite clearly has Scriptural warrant, it is commanded by Christ, it is mentioned a number of times in the New Testament, as well as the Didache, written during the time the Gospels were written. Of course, in a sense, the gentleman you refer to is correct, it was instituted by the Catholic Church, but anyone can read it is Biblical, as well. It would be interesting to hear his defense for the position that baptism is NOT biblical... I get a good chuckle out of such "musings", if I may be so polite... ;)

There are some really wacko teachings out there ... And somebody, sometimes many people, will follow just about any teaching(s) ....

Yes, that is "biblical", as well...

Regards