[_ Old Earth _] Believe in Evolution, not Evolutionary Theory.

[B.A.C.]

I just thought I'd make a thread to clear things up in terms of definition.

I can believe in Evolution, as we have observed things undergoing Evolution. We've seen Wolves turn into household pets, we've seen finches grow smaller beaks to adapt to seed size. We've observed virii changing to adapt to the immune system. We've verified that animals can change according to their environment and other pressures. It would be crazy to think that God wouldn't create them with this ability. No? Of course he would, he knew the world or a creations environment would be changing from day to day.

What we CAN'T believe is that we all came from a "Common Ancestor" or that birds turn into reptiles, or that man and ape come from a "Common Ancestor" as do ALL animals according to Evolutionary Theory (which is neither verifiable or observable). This directly contradicts the WORD OF GOD. Which, given the choice of God and Man, I'll choose God EVERY TIME. Can there be any doubt? Nope. Trust the Word or trust ourselves? The Word wins, EVERY time. Period.

Evolution DOES NOT EQUAL Evolutionary Theory. DO NOT fall victim to this elusive play on words. God forbid. Evolution is NOT fact AND theory, don't let "Them" tell you it is. Evolution is a collection of facts, the Theory attempts to explain these facts, and get's them all wrong in the process.

That's what a real Christian is concerned about.

God Bless.

B.A.C.

 

[Barbarian]

What we CAN'T believe is that we all came from a "Common Ancestor"

The evidence shows we did. In fact, the first person to show the nested hierarchy that only happens with common ancestry was Linneaus, a creationist. Since then, fossils, molecular biology, genetics, and many other sources of evidence have confirmed this fact.

or that birds turn into reptiles

They didn't. Nor does the theory say they did.

, or that man and ape come from a "Common Ancestor

That is what the evidence shows. Would you like to learn about some of it?

" as do ALL animals according to Evolutionary Theory (which is neither verifiable or observable). This directly contradicts the WORD OF GOD.

No, it directly contradicts the creationists who have confused their opinions with the word of God.

That's what a real Christian is concerned about.

For a real Christian, it's a non-issue. Salvation has nothing to do with your acceptance of the way He created living things. If you chose to reject Genesis and embrace creationism, you can still be saved.

 

[B.A.C.]

What we CAN'T believe is that we all came from a "Common Ancestor"

The evidence shows we did. In fact, the first person to show the nested hierarchy that only happens with common ancestry was Linneaus, a creationist. Since then, fossils, molecular biology, genetics, and many other sources of evidence have confirmed this fact.

[quote:scj1059m]or that birds turn into reptiles

They didn't. Nor does the theory say they did.

, or that man and ape come from a "Common Ancestor

That is what the evidence shows. Would you like to learn about some of it?

" as do ALL animals according to Evolutionary Theory (which is neither verifiable or observable). This directly contradicts the WORD OF GOD.

No, it directly contradicts the creationists who have confused their opinions with the word of God.

That's what a real Christian is concerned about.

For a real Christian, it's a non-issue. Salvation has nothing to do with your acceptance of the way He created living things. If you chose to reject Genesis and embrace creationism, you can still be saved.[/quote:scj1059m]

You're assuming I haven't studied Evolutionary Theory (All of it's versions), not sure which version you're speaking of, but birds coming from reptiles was standard fair up until recently (when they found out they were wrong again). Please do try to school me on it. The problem is that I HAVE studied it.

You can quote all the scientific studies you want, it doesn't change the fact that these studies are "best guesses" and not "known fact". I'll place my faith in the Word over man.

No, I haven't confused my opinion with the Word of God. You've confused the Word of God for something you can add and subtract from. There is no reconciliation with the Word. Take it or leave it. You've obviously left it, now you just have to admit it to yourself.

Read John, then tell me you can be saved and not believe the WORD. Or can you "choose" to reject John as well? Where does it end with you? Why stop there? Maybe you can "choose" to reject the whole Bible and be saved? You're a wannabe Christian who believes in fairy tales.

:amen

 

[Dave Slayer]

I have heard so many different explanations on what evolution is, it has driven me bonkers! lol :P

I give up on trying to understand it. I will take the word of God as it is and if I am wrong in my understanding of the origin of life and evolution, I will find out at the pearly gates. :yes Maybe my heavenly body will look like an ape!

There are too many more important things I need to focus on right now, so evolution can take the back seat. :D

 

[B.A.C.]

I have heard so many different explanations on what evolution is, it has driven me bonkers! lol :P

I give up on trying to understand it. I will take the word of God as it is and if I am wrong in my understanding of the origin of life and evolution, I will find out at the pearly gates. :yes Maybe my heavenly body will look like an ape!

There are too many more important things I need to focus on right now, so evolution can take the back seat. :D

Amen to that Brother!

 

[Dave Slayer]

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/ ... ution2.jpg[/url]

 

[Sanitarium]

I can believe in Evolution, as we have observed things undergoing Evolution.

okay good.

We've seen Wolves turn into household pets

This is artificial selection - humans intervened to tame and selectively breed wolves to get the desirable attributes.

, we've seen finches grow smaller beaks to adapt to seed size. We've observed virii changing to adapt to the immune system. We've verified that animals can change according to their environment and other pressures.

Okay wonderful!

What we CAN'T believe is that we all came from a "Common Ancestor" or that birds turn into reptiles, or that man and ape come from a "Common Ancestor" as do ALL animals according to Evolutionary Theory (which is neither verifiable or observable).

Firstly, as has been clarified for you, the TOE does not state birds turn into reptiles (!). Secondly I am a little confused here. You state you accept Evolution, and you even state you accept that animals change according to their environment. You also accept artificial selection, so what exactly about the "evolutionary theory" do you not accept? Are you saying you do not accept that evolution occurred by the process of Natural Selection? If this is the case, your thread is mis-titled.

Evolution DOES NOT EQUAL Evolutionary Theory.

what? It's "the theory of evolution by [the process of] natural selection." Which part do you not accept?

DO NOT fall victim to this elusive play on words. God forbid. Evolution is NOT fact AND theory, don't let "Them" tell you it is.

1. You are ignorant of the meaning of "theory" as it is used in Science.
2. Evolution is a FACT - the exact a > b > c > d > e etc.. of Natural selection is what (I think?) you have a problem with?

Evolution is a collection of facts, the Theory attempts to explain these facts, and get's them all wrong in the process.

Okay so I'm through your post and I'm still not sure exactly what it is about the TOE that you have a problem with. Can you please elaborate on what parts (exactly) you do not agree with?


And just so we're clear - your sole basis for rejecting those parts is that you believe the bible, right?

 

[Aero_Hudson]

No, I haven't confused my opinion with the Word of God. You've confused the Word of God for something you can add and subtract from. There is no reconciliation with the Word. Take it or leave it. You've obviously left it, now you just have to admit it to yourself.

Read John, then tell me you can be saved and not believe the WORD. Or can you "choose" to reject John as well? Where does it end with you? Why stop there? Maybe you can "choose" to reject the whole Bible and be saved? You're a wannabe Christian who believes in fairy tales.

:amen

I will adamantly disagree with you there for the following reasons...

- The "Word of God" / the bible is extremely expansive and complex. It has many passages and a wealth of information and content. As a result, there are many interpretations to what scripture is trying to tell in many instances. You can talk to 10 different Christians regarding one specific passage and they could all tell you that it means something different.

- No one knows if the account of Creation is literal or not. If it is literal, no one knows if this is based on a different time continuum or how we understand time.

- This is my own personal opinion so take it for what it is worth. Being saved is not dependant on your interpretation of specific sections of scripture. It is dependent on whether or not you accept Jesus as the Son of God, that he died for our sins and that through him we come to God and his kingdom. It has nothing to do with whether or not I subscribe to Creationism or Evolution. This issues along with many others are the details that we wrestle with throughout our lives and inconsequential to the larger issue of accepted Christ.

I think non believers are discouraged to become believers due to this stance and less people will accept Christ as a result. I know it impacted me for many years.

 

[B.A.C.]

[quote="B.A.C.":uq3x3us8]No, I haven't confused my opinion with the Word of God. You've confused the Word of God for something you can add and subtract from. There is no reconciliation with the Word. Take it or leave it. You've obviously left it, now you just have to admit it to yourself.

Read John, then tell me you can be saved and not believe the WORD. Or can you "choose" to reject John as well? Where does it end with you? Why stop there? Maybe you can "choose" to reject the whole Bible and be saved? You're a wannabe Christian who believes in fairy tales.

:amen

I will adamantly disagree with you there for the following reasons...

- The "Word of God" / the bible is extremely expansive and complex. It has many passages and a wealth of information and content. As a result, there are many interpretations to what scripture is trying to tell in many instances. You can talk to 10 different Christians regarding one specific passage and they could all tell you that it means something different.

- No one knows if the account of Creation is literal or not. If it is literal, no one knows if this is based on a different time continuum or how we understand time.

- This is my own personal opinion so take it for what it is worth. Being saved is not dependant on your interpretation of specific sections of scripture. It is dependent on whether or not you accept Jesus as the Son of God, that he died for our sins and that through him we come to God and his kingdom. It has nothing to do with whether or not I subscribe to Creationism or Evolution. This issues along with many others are the details that we wrestle with throughout our lives and inconsequential to the larger issue of accepted Christ.

I think non believers are discouraged to become believers due to this stance and less people will accept Christ as a result. I know it impacted me for many years.[/quote:uq3x3us8]

Ok, let me explain something to you, if you'll allow me.

If the Creation account in Genesis is not true, then sin didn't enter the world through one man (Adam). If sin did not enter the world through Adam, then you are not born in sin. If you are not born in sin, then why do you require the Blood of Christ to save you? If that were true then Christ dying on the cross was in vain, since we are not all sinners. Of course we know that Christ didn't die in vain, so the Creation account HAS to be believed if you accept Christ as your Savior.

Ro:5:12: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Who's the "one man"? Adam.

Ro:5:17: For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Ro:5:18: Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Sin came into the world through Adam and was defeated by Christ.

Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

1Co:15:21: For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co:15:22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

See what I mean? Christ was raised from death to defeat sin, even as Adam was brought to death through sin, and if Christ be not raised, then the sin of Adam hasn't been defeated. That's where our salvation comes from. So, No Adam = No Salvation.

1Co:15:14: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Co:15:15: Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co:15:16: For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co:15:17: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

God Bless You.

 

[John]

If the Creation account in Genesis is not true, then sin didn't enter the world through one man (Adam). If sin did not enter the world through Adam, then you are not born in sin. If you are not born in sin, then why do you require the Blood of Christ to save you? If that were true then Christ dying on the cross was in vain, since we are not all sinners. Of course we know that Christ didn't die in vain, so the Creation account HAS to be believed if you accept Christ as your Savior.

:amen

 

[Brah]

[/quote][/quote]

Ok, let me explain something to you, if you'll allow me.

If the Creation account in Genesis is not true, then sin didn't enter the world through one man (Adam). If sin did not enter the world through Adam, then you are not born in sin. If you are not born in sin, then why do you require the Blood of Christ to save you? If that were true then Christ dying on the cross was in vain, since we are not all sinners. Of course we know that Christ didn't die in vain, so the Creation account HAS to be believed if you accept Christ as your Savior.[/quote]


As pointed out earlier there are so many different interpretations on just one of these accounts i don't see how anyone can claim with 100% certainty that they have the absolute word of god figured out without being extremely arrogant.
I don't think anyone here has said that Genesis is untrue but that a word for word interpretation simply does not work at all. For a word for word Genesis to be true earths age would have to be thousands of years old instead of billions of years old and two people and there children would have had to have inbreed an impossible amount of times to get humanity to its current population.

Why cant the story of Adam and Eve be that, a story. A story that helps us understand the nature of sin and death which is a part of human nature. i think the story also emphasizes how we need free will, sin, and death present in the world to challenge us to be good Christians.

When you take a word for word interpretation of the old testament your also ignoring the culture and people who wrote it. For instance, the Hebrews often taught through story telling using metaphors to teach lessons instead of telling them straight forward what is and what not to do.

Basically to make a word for word interpretation of genesis work you have to ignore a lot more than just the theory of evolution. You would have to ignore most of astronomy, biology, physics, and geology.

 

[Barbarian]

If the Creation account in Genesis is not true, then sin didn't enter the world through one man (Adam).

It is true. But it's consistent with evolution and death entering the world through one man. You see, the "death" is spiritual, not physical. God tells Adam that he will die the day he eats from the tree. Adam eats, and yet he does not die physically that day; he dies spiritually.

 

[Crying Rock]

Adam eats, and yet he does not die physically that day; he dies spiritually.

So Adam was our common ancestor?

 

[Barbarian]

Yes. That's a religious belief, of course, not science. But it's completely compatible with science as we understand it today.