Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatise

[farouk]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

Umm....

The word 'everlasting' in John 3.16 means that it lasts...

If it - whatever it is - doesn't last, then whatever it was that the person thought s/he had in the first place, it wasn't everlasting life through faith in Christ.

 

[Deavonreye]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

Josh, I understand what you are saying, . . . but "he that doesn't believe will be damned to hell" is a harsh judgement on those who may be unable to believe . . . and believe in the way that they are supposed to be FOR it to be legitimate. Not everyone can, thus they must "bow to the dictator", whom they have personally never met, regardless of their intellectual honesty. God's "sovreignty" sounds good when you are one who feels they are "with god". But to those who are not, it sounds like a pretty malevolent system. Just how I see it.

 

[farouk]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

Josh, I understand what you are saying, . . . but "he that doesn't believe will be damned to hell" is a harsh judgement on those who may be unable to believe . . . and believe in the way that they are supposed to be FOR it to be legitimate. Not everyone can, thus they must "bow to the dictator", whom they have personally never met, regardless of their intellectual honesty. God's "sovreignty" sounds good when you are one who feels they are "with god". But to those who are not, it sounds like a pretty malevolent system. Just how I see it.

This post is clearly denying the Bible's teachings.

For people who want to deny the Bible's teachings, maybe there are other sites rather than a Christian one? (my suggestion)

 

[cyberjosh]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

This post is clearly denying the Bible's teachings.

For people who want to deny the Bible's teachings, maybe there are other sites rather than a Christian one? (my suggestion)

I think he is expressing his opinion, not forcing this view on anyone. Atheists are certainly welcome in the Apologetics section, else what would apologetics be for and to whom would we express our faith or make disciples? We just do not allow Bible bashing. I do not believe Deavonrye is doing that even if his views are contrary to Scripture.

Deavonrye:

I have to get back to work now but I will sincerely discuss this issue of God's justice with you if you care to do so later. It is natural that unbelievers see God's wrath towards them: Romans 1:18-32 says as much. The issue is that you do have a choice to listen, there is no one who "can't" repent and believe in the Gospel, short of not having heard of the Gospel at all (which is a different issue). I hope that much is clear.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Deavonreye]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

Any time, Josh.

My opinions are not of someone who is "an atheist". I don't claim to be. I have no idea if there are higher beings, but would not deny that possibility.

As for whether or not I can believe, the issue is not "believing an actual god person", it is whether or not I believe the other human, on the other side of my computer screen, that what they state is the truth. In my 30 years in the church, it hasn't met with me as literal, though I thought that it had. An honest look at it concluded that it wasn't the case.

 

[gideon3213]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

gideon3213

I agree that one can lose salvation but I can find evidence that the only reason is for ceasing to believe.

Gal 5:2-5
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
NKJV

John 15:6-7
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
NKJV

Becoming estranged from Jesus and fallen from grace means that the person no longer abides in Jesus. I have found no other time where Paul writes that any other sin causes one to fall from grace.

Matt 12:31-32
31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV

If every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven except (x). Then He describes a sin that cannot be forgiven. It seems obvious that the sin described must be = to x.

Hello, I hope that you are well.

I must ask you if you actually read what I originally posted, because I go into all of the different ways that the bible says a person can forfeit their salvation.
Here is a small list of things that will cost you your salvation according to scripture: 1. blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. 2. Apostacy 3. Becoming luke warm and never repenting. 4. Allowing the cares of this world to choke out the life of God within you. etc.

Please take the time to read through the entire post. I know it is long, but it will prove to be worth you time to read it! Heres an idea, copy and past it into a work processor, then print it out, and then you can read through it when your off line at your own pace.

Now you stated 'If every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven except (x). Then He describes a sin that cannot be forgiven. It seems obvious that the sin described must be = to x.[/QUOTE]:

When Jesus said this He was in the middle of defending himself for the false acuasation of casting out demons by the power of the ruler of the demons. the fact that Jesus gives anther sin that wont be forgiven in John 15:1-ff is proof that when Jesus said ''every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven' that he was talking in a gerneral sence of the word 'every', and not in an absolute sense of the word 'every'! If John, Dick, Ron, and Jane decided that they all wated to go to the store together, and they left and went to the store. and you came into the room and asked me where did everyone go? You would be using the word 'every' in a very narrow sense; for it would be limited to the 4 people that were formaly here; but were now absent from the room. You certainly would not be asking me where every single man woman and child in the whole world went. and that is what you would be asking if you interpreted the word 'every' in an absolute sence of the word. so also Jesus was not using the word every in an absolute sence of the word, but rather was using it in a very geveral sence, as he was not giving a discorse on the different sin's that would cost you your salvation at that moment: and once again, Jesus later on teaches us that there are other things that will cost us are salvation. So there are other things that are unforgiveable!

I hope that what I said makes sence to you.

Have a great day.


God bless

 

[Alabaster]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

The actual title of this thread is an oxymoronic idea.

A true believer lives in the grace of God. He cannot lose His salvation, as God upholds His promises to him.

I don't believe in eternal insecurity for true believers.

 

[littlelight]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

Hello, I hope that you are well.

I must ask you if you actually read what I originally posted, because I go into all of the different ways that the bible says a person can forfeit their salvation.
Here is a small list of things that will cost you your salvation according to scripture: 1. blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. 2. Apostacy 3. Becoming luke warm and never repenting. 4. Allowing the cares of this world to choke out the life of God within you. etc.

Please take the time to read through the entire post. I know it is long, but it will prove to be worth you time to read it! Heres an idea, copy and past it into a work processor, then print it out, and then you can read through it when your off line at your own pace.

Now you stated 'If every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven except (x). Then He describes a sin that cannot be forgiven. It seems obvious that the sin described must be = to x.

:

When Jesus said this He was in the middle of defending himself for the false acuasation of casting out demons by the power of the ruler of the demons. the fact that Jesus gives anther sin that wont be forgiven in John 15:1-ff is proof that when Jesus said ''every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven' that he was talking in a gerneral sence of the word 'every', and not in an absolute sense of the word 'every'! If John, Dick, Ron, and Jane decided that they all wated to go to the store together, and they left and went to the store. and you came into the room and asked me where did everyone go? You would be using the word 'every' in a very narrow sense; for it would be limited to the 4 people that were formaly here; but were now absent from the room. You certainly would not be asking me where every single man woman and child in the whole world went. and that is what you would be asking if you interpreted the word 'every' in an absolute sence of the word. so also Jesus was not using the word every in an absolute sence of the word, but rather was using it in a very geveral sence, as he was not giving a discorse on the different sin's that would cost you your salvation at that moment: and once again, Jesus later on teaches us that there are other things that will cost us are salvation. So there are other things that are unforgiveable!

I hope that what I said makes sence to you.

Have a great day.


God bless[/QUOTE]

I used to believe that there were other sins that one could do and lose salvation. But I have narrowed it down to BHS. I disagree about Jesus speaking in general when He said every. The Holy Spirit in Mark used the word all. If He hadn't meant all or every He would have used most or many. He meant all and every because He forgives all sins by His death.

Acts 13:39
39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
NKJV

Notice the word all things in the above. We are justified from all sins except the one Jesus said was BHS and is later described in Heb. So BHS is Apostasy and I agree with you. 3 and 4 I do not agree with. I don't know what is in Jn 15:1-ff unless it Jn 15:2 and I read that to mean He takes them to Heaven.

 

[jasoncran]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

The actual title of this thread is an oxymoronic idea.

A true believer lives in the grace of God. He cannot lose His salvation, as God upholds His promises to him.

I don't believe in eternal insecurity for true believers.

one that note.

gideon if one dies after a spat with the wife and has said thing in anger an was angry with the spouse and yet we also a godly man otherwise. and on the way out the door to go way from the spouse and drops dead from heart attack where will he be?

if hell?
why?

if not why?

does any man die in perfect sinlessness?

i dont think so.

in order to lose ones salvation one must continously rebel KNOWING that the lord is calling you to repent and you harden your heart so bad that you wont hear no care.

in all likely a person who does this isnt saved nor ever was.

but it is possible imho.

 

[gideon3213]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

:

When Jesus said this He was in the middle of defending himself for the false acuasation of casting out demons by the power of the ruler of the demons. the fact that Jesus gives anther sin that wont be forgiven in John 15:1-ff is proof that when Jesus said ''every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven' that he was talking in a gerneral sence of the word 'every', and not in an absolute sense of the word 'every'! If John, Dick, Ron, and Jane decided that they all wated to go to the store together, and they left and went to the store. and you came into the room and asked me where did everyone go? You would be using the word 'every' in a very narrow sense; for it would be limited to the 4 people that were formaly here; but were now absent from the room. You certainly would not be asking me where every single man woman and child in the whole world went. and that is what you would be asking if you interpreted the word 'every' in an absolute sence of the word. so also Jesus was not using the word every in an absolute sence of the word, but rather was using it in a very geveral sence, as he was not giving a discorse on the different sin's that would cost you your salvation at that moment: and once again, Jesus later on teaches us that there are other things that will cost us are salvation. So there are other things that are unforgiveable!

I hope that what I said makes sence to you.

Have a great day.


God bless

I used to believe that there were other sins that one could do and lose salvation. But I have narrowed it down to BHS. I disagree about Jesus speaking in general when He said every. The Holy Spirit in Mark used the word all. If He hadn't meant all or every He would have used most or many. He meant all and every because He forgives all sins by His death.

Acts 13:39
39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
NKJV

Notice the word all things in the above. We are justified from all sins except the one Jesus said was BHS and is later described in Heb. So BHS is Apostasy and I agree with you. 3 and 4 I do not agree with. I don't know what is in Jn 15:1-ff unless it Jn 15:2 and I read that to mean He takes them to Heaven.[/QUOTE]


The same reasoning applies to the word 'all' as it does to the word 'every'. If there are four of us in a room and we all decide to go to the store, then we all leave and go to the store, we could then say that we all went to the store. And in using the word 'all' we are using it in a limited sence; not an absolute sence. We know that when Jesus use the word 'all' in His response to the scribes and pharisees, He must have used it in a limited sence because Jesus tells us in other places that there are other things that will cost us our salvation. If Jesus had never taught about other things that are not forgiven: then we could reasonably say that the word all was all inclusive. But because He does say that there are other things that can cost us our salvation, we must assume that He did not use the word 'all' in an all inclusive sence: but rather in a general sence that left room for other sin's to be listed. If this is not true, then we have a very serious contradition in the scriptures. I personally do not think that Jesus would contradict himself.

You obviously did not read my original post because I deal with John 15 in it. So I will repost it again because it will help you understand that passaged:

John 15:1-7
15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. (NKJV)

Now Jesus is giving a parable too illustrate a truth. What truth is he trying to convey? Let’s take a look at it a little closer. In verse 1 Jesus states that He is the vine. And that God is the one who tends the vine. In verse 2 Jesus states that every branch in Him that does not bear fruit God takes away. Now who is Jesus referring too when He uses the term “branch”? This question is answered by Jesus Himself in verse 5, which states that we are the branches. So Jesus is saying that everyone in Him that does not bear fruit (i.e. the fruit of the Spirit; love, joy, peace, etc.) God takes away. Now what does it mean for someone to be in Christ? Can someone who is not truly saved be in Christ? No! Only true believers are in Christ. (2 Cor 13:5 states: 5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you are disqualified. (NKJV)


This passage makes it plain that someone who is “disqualified” is no longer in Christ; he has been cut off. It also proves that only true believers are in Christ.) So what Jesus is saying in verse 2 is that if a true believer does not produce the fruit of the Spirit in his life, he will be cut off from Christ. (i.e. forfeit his salvation.) So then; how do we produce the fruit of the Spirit? Verse 4 gives us the answer; verse 4 commands us too “abide” in Jesus, and He will abide in us. So what does the word “abide” mean in the Greek? It means: “NT:3306 meno (men'-o); a primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy):

KJV - abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Hence what Jesus is commanding us to do is too continue to walk in obedience too Him. And thus maintain our relationship with Him. (Jesus makes this plain in John 15:10-11 10. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. (NKJV) Hence it is by keeping His commandment’s that we abide in Him and produce the fruit of the Spirit.) And if we refuse too maintain our relationship with Him. Than we will be cut off and cast into the Lake of fire! For verse 6 states “If anyone does not abide (i.e. continue, dwell, stay) in me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. !

Thus we conclude that Jesus is teaching us, that a true believer can indeed forfeit his salvation!

Now after reading all of this it should be obvious that Jesus did in deed teach that there is another sin that is unforgivable, the sin of not abiding in Him! this sin is not apostacy as the person need not make a conscience descision to not abid in Him. Someone can simply drift away and not continue to do the things that are necessary to continue too abide in Him. This is why the bible says that we are to work out our salvation with fear and treambling! (Philip 2:12)


have a great day

 

[gideon3213]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

one that note.

gideon if one dies after a spat with the wife and has said thing in anger an was angry with the spouse and yet we also a godly man otherwise. and on the way out the door to go way from the spouse and drops dead from heart attack where will he be?

if hell?
why?

if not why?

does any man die in perfect sinlessness?

i dont think so.

in order to lose ones salvation one must continously rebel KNOWING that the lord is calling you to repent and you harden your heart so bad that you wont hear no care.

in all likely a person who does this isnt saved nor ever was.

but it is possible imho.

I hope that you are well!

It is quite apparent that you did not read what I posted! For what I posted soundly refutes what you just said! There are 38 passages in the new testament alone that either state plainly, or infer that a true believer can in fact forfiiet His salvation. I have posted all 38 of them and gone into detail explaining each one! Please read what I have posted.

Now in your senario above you have not given enough information as to be able to determine if he would go to heaven or hell. The bilbe tells us to be angry and do not sin. So being angry at his wife is not necessarily a sin! however, God is the one who is in control of when we did. And I believe that if we are truly abiding in Jesus that He would allow not allow you to die with unrepented sin in your heart. Now He might strike you dead for a sin. like he did annanias and his wife, (see acts 5:1-ff.) In which case you would definately go to Hell! (please read the story in acts chapter 5 and then note that God did not give them a chance to repent. nor did He extend to them the oportunity to be forgiven! They had offended God in a vary serious way, and God killed them for it! It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God! (Heb 10:31)

The God of the bible is not a patsy! He requies us to obey His morale laws that He has given to us in the bible. And we need to take that seriously! As we can be certain that HE takes it seriously!

Have a great day.

 

[Alabaster]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

No TRUE BELIEVER can forfeit his salvation, but a false convert can lose what he thinks or falsely proclaims he has. In other words, those who receive eternal punishment were never TRUE BELIEVERS in the first place.

God's grace is His immeasurable and free gift. We can abuse it, and there are warnings about that in scripyure, but it is a limitless gift for all believers. We don't lose our salvation when we sin. Our sins have been wiped out forever.

God doesn't cut us off when we fail to bear fruit. The oroginal language says that he takes the unfruitful branch and 'lifts it up', which means it has been unclean, and any Israeli vineyard owner will tell you that is precisely what they do in caring for unfruitful branches---they become unfruitful because the sends of the branches become clogged with soil, and insects and their debris. The farmers wash the branches and lift them up on trellises, much like how Jesus was lifted up on the cross. Then after such meticulous cleansing and care from the vinedresser, the branch will begin to bear fruit.

 

[jasoncran]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

I hope that you are well!

It is quite apparent that you did not read what I posted! For what I posted soundly refutes what you just said! There are 38 passages in the new testament alone that either state plainly, or infer that a true believer can in fact forfiiet His salvation. I have posted all 38 of them and gone into detail explaining each one! Please read what I have posted.

Now in your senario above you have not given enough information as to be able to determine if he would go to heaven or hell. The bilbe tells us to be angry and do not sin. So being angry at his wife is not necessarily a sin! however, God is the one who is in control of when we did. And I believe that if we are truly abiding in Jesus that He would allow not allow you to die with unrepented sin in your heart. Now He might strike you dead for a sin. like he did annanias and his wife, (see acts 5:1-ff.) In which case you would definately go to Hell! (please read the story in acts chapter 5 and then note that God did not give them a chance to repent. nor did He extend to them the oportunity to be forgiven! They had offended God in a vary serious way, and God killed them for it! It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God! (Heb 10:31)

The God of the bible is not a patsy! He requies us to obey His morale laws that He has given to us in the bible. And we need to take that seriously! As we can be certain that HE takes it seriously!

Have a great day.

seriously, if i',m mad or anyone is in a serious spat, words will be said in anger that hurt real bad , and maybe meant but are sad and also need to be repented of.

isnt that what really happens.

btw, if you take hebrews 6 or in peter then any sin we knowingly to do despite we have been warned not to do it, is willful and thus unforgivable.

no if ands or buts

hebrew 10:26

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

what sin if we have the read the bible that we do daily knowingly sin?

if i or anyone struggles with an addiction is told that sin, yet does it again then he just willfully sinned and cant be saved.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

No TRUE BELIEVER can forfeit his salvation, but a false convert can lose what he thinks or falsely proclaims he has. In other words, those who receive eternal punishment were never TRUE BELIEVERS in the first place.

The problem is "who is a true believer"? Men are easily deluded into thinking they are. (Mat 7:21) Only time will tell if we were AND REMAINED "true believers"... That is where "OSAS" fails. No one knows for certain if they will remain "true believers", no matter how much they think they are today.

Regards

 

[Elijah674]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

[/B]


The problem is "who is a true believer"? Men are easily deluded into thinking they are. (Mat 7:21) Only time will tell if we were AND REMAINED "true believers"... That is where "OSAS" fails. No one knows for certain if they will remain "true believers", no matter how much they think they are today.

Regards

'i' agree with that, yet, God DOES DOCUMENT that when we teach opposit His last Words of Warning in Rev., that we KNOW that we have forfieted our eternal life of remaining in His Book of Life! And are NO LONGER A TRUE 'TEACHER' at least, huh!


Rev. 22
[17] And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
[18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
[20] He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

And we know that uninspired man divided up the One Book with chapers numbers, periods, coma's & the like. And this above is almost an exact repeat of Eccl. 3:14's Inspiration as well.

--Elijah

 

[littlelight]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

You obviously did not read my original post because I deal with John 15 in it. So I will repost it again because it will help you understand that passaged:

John 15:1-7
15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[/QUOTE



I am only going to limit my responce to Jn 15:2 and apostacy. That does not mean that I have not read all your post nor does it mean that I agree with the rest of your post.

1 Cor 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles — that a man has his father's wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
NKJV

Paul is saying that if the person did not repent of his sin that he would die in his sin and be taken to Heaven. Paul is speaking of a sin so vile that even gentiles think its bad. But yet God would still take him to heaven. So in Jn 15:2 when God takes someone away they are called to heaven. The same thing happened in Acts chapter 5 to Ananias and Sapphira. They were living to the flesh and died. They were believers and could not continue to live in sin.


APOSTASY Defection from the faith.
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, revised edition, Copyright © 1979 by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. All rights reserved.)

When Jesus was speaking about BHS he was talking to His 11 disciples. Old covenant people were saved by the same crucifixion that we are. Abraham saw Jesus' day and rejoiced. What other day causes a sinner more joy, yet sadness, than the day that allows us access to heaven. Old covenant people knew when they were saved. David asked that the joy of his salvation be restored. So the 11 met the criteria in Chapter 6 of Heb. They had tasted the goodness of salvation. They had became partakers of the Holy Spirit (as had David and many others in the Old Testament). After walking with Jesus for 3 yrs they had tasted the good word of God as no one else had. They had been given the powers of the age to come to heal, cast out demons etc.

So Apostacy is to quit believing in Jesus and it is the only unforgivable sin. That is what the entire book of Hebrews is about. Jews that wanted to return to the Livitical system. Becoming entangled in the sins of the world by believing that inferior priests and inferior blood could do the job whereas Jesus' sacrifice didn't do the job.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
NKJV

If you reject Jesus after accepting God's gifts, there is no other sacrifice left. Your telling God that you tried it and found that its no good. You are trampling on the best God has to offer.

 

[Alabaster]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

seriously, if i',m mad or anyone is in a serious spat, words will be said in anger that hurt real bad , and maybe meant but are sad and also need to be repented of.

isnt that what really happens.

btw, if you take hebrews 6 or in peter then any sin we knowingly to do despite we have been warned not to do it, is willful and thus unforgivable.

no if ands or buts

hebrew 10:26

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

what sin if we have the read the bible that we do daily knowingly sin?

if i or anyone struggles with an addiction is told that sin, yet does it again then he just willfully sinned and cant be saved.

That would be a false belief and a person would need correction in it as it flies in the face of God and His great mercy.

Hebrews 10:26-27
Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins. 27 There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies.

Born again people don't CONTINUE in sin. To do so, reveals NO salvation to begin with!



Take comfort in this truth plainly spoken here:

1 John 1:5-9
5 This is the message we heard from Jesus and now declare to you: God is light, and there is no darkness in him at all. 6 So we are lying if we say we have fellowship with God but go on living in spiritual darkness; we are not practicing the truth. 7 But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

8 If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. 9 But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.

 

[Elijah674]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

You obviously did not read my original post because I deal with John 15 in it. So I will repost it again because it will help you understand that passaged:

John 15:1-7
15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[/QUOTE



I am only going to limit my responce to Jn 15:2 and apostacy. That does not mean that I have not read all your post nor does it mean that I agree with the rest of your post.

1 Cor 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles — that a man has his father's wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
NKJV

Paul is saying that if the person did not repent of his sin that he would die in his sin and be taken to Heaven. Paul is speaking of a sin so vile that even gentiles think its bad. But yet God would still take him to heaven. So in Jn 15:2 when God takes someone away they are called to heaven. The same thing happened in Acts chapter 5 to Ananias and Sapphira. They were living to the flesh and died. They were believers and could not continue to live in sin.


APOSTASY Defection from the faith.
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, revised edition, Copyright © 1979 by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. All rights reserved.)

When Jesus was speaking about BHS he was talking to His 11 disciples. Old covenant people were saved by the same crucifixion that we are. Abraham saw Jesus' day and rejoiced. What other day causes a sinner more joy, yet sadness, than the day that allows us access to heaven. Old covenant people knew when they were saved. David asked that the joy of his salvation be restored. So the 11 met the criteria in Chapter 6 of Heb. They had tasted the goodness of salvation. They had became partakers of the Holy Spirit (as had David and many others in the Old Testament). After walking with Jesus for 3 yrs they had tasted the good word of God as no one else had. They had been given the powers of the age to come to heal, cast out demons etc.

So Apostacy is to quit believing in Jesus and it is the only unforgivable sin. That is what the entire book of Hebrews is about. Jews that wanted to return to the Livitical system. Becoming entangled in the sins of the world by believing that inferior priests and inferior blood could do the job whereas Jesus' sacrifice didn't do the job.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
NKJV

If you reject Jesus after accepting God's gifts, there is no other sacrifice left. Your telling God that you tried it and found that its no good. You are trampling on the best God has to offer.

Hi Elijah here: These take in ALL class of mankind. See who will BURN in hell the longest as Christ documents below?

Luke 12

[47] And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
[48] But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
[49] I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I if it be already kindled?

And what class will again be satan's REAL Killers? 666

 

[francisdesales]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

'i' agree with that, yet, God DOES DOCUMENT that when we teach opposit His last Words of Warning in Rev., that we KNOW that we have forfieted our eternal life of remaining in His Book of Life! And are NO LONGER A TRUE 'TEACHER' at least, huh!


Rev. 22
[17] And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
[18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
[20] He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

And we know that uninspired man divided up the One Book with chapers numbers, periods, coma's & the like. And this above is almost an exact repeat of Eccl. 3:14's Inspiration as well.

--Elijah

Elijah,

You are going beyond the intent of the passage you cite...

First, John's inspired writing from Patmos was not written with OUR Bible in mind. THAT compilation came much later. John is referring to changing what HE wrote, diluting the revelation that God would prevail over evil. Not in putting numbers in front of verses for the purposes of categorizing sections into chapters...

The Bible was not written as "One Book", as you imagine. A simple look into Church history will verify that. Only later was the Bible compiled by the Church as such, so that the Word could be known by those who had access to many other writings CLAIMING to be the Word of God (such as the Shepherd of Hermas). The Church verified, through its apostolic teachings, what was from God and what wasn't.

Regards

 

[Elijah674]

Re: Bible clearly teaches that a true believer can forfiet their salvation! a treatis

What was the Thread Question??
2 Cor. 4:2 has not always been about the Rev. 14:6 ETERNAL GOSPEL??? The Word of God!
Sorry for you, but I do not buy into rome's stuff.

And if one wanted authenic Truth, they might even get the Jewish Bible of just the O.T. from their two books. Surely these that are called Legalists would come closer to ETERNAL truth than what your posting was just pedaling in your [post]! Such as Christ's Words of Matt. 4:4 + the Inspiration of the Holy Spirits 'ETERNAL' WORDS of 2 Tim. 3:16 having a 'man made' mortal starting point in time??? (see Jer. 17:5's Warning Forum!)

OH' by the way, FORUM, that is for the Documented WORDS of Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 + the TWICE repeated as seen in Gen. 41:32.. for how to know ALL OF THE MASTER'S documentation!

No need to reply, for we have NOTHING IN COMMON. But, if you just must do so? You can have the last words.

--Elijah