Bible Study Bible & homosexual marriage

[jocor]

Its interesting that you have said the bible is a book of errors yet you cant prove it.

I said no such thing. I said the "copies" are not infallible. The fact that the Greek manuscripts do not agree 100% shows errors have crept in.

And regarding your idea about "sinning willfully".
Have you never considered that nearly every sin you commit, you did it willfully?
Every Christian on this forum sins willfully or they would not be confessing their sins to Priests, or to God in prayer.
So, really, just get real, and study this verse until you understand it.
Romans 4:8

Again you misquoted me. I did NOT say "sinning willfully". I said, "willfully practices sin". A person can willfully sin, but they repent of it in time. A person who willfully practices sin has chosen that lifestyle and will not repent of it. If they persist in their rebellion against the Holy Spirit's prompting to repent and die in that state, they will be lost (Heb 10:26-31; 2 Peter 2:20-22; ...). To confess sins is one thing, but to repent and turn from them is another. It does a person no good to confess sin and then go right back to doing the same day after day. Where is the repentance?

 

[Kidron]

I said no such thing. I said the "copies" are not infallible. The fact that the Greek manuscripts do not agree 100% shows errors have crept in.


Just as there are bad bible versions, there are also manuscripts that have been altered.
However, this does not mean all bibles and all manuscripts have been altered, as you are trying to suggest.
Try to refrain from the use of the word "all", and you'll have the right idea



Again you misquoted me. I did NOT say "sinning willfully". I said, "willfully practices sin". A person can willfully sin, but they repent of it in time.


There is no sin, "willful" or "accidental", that the blood of Christ does not continue to pay for, once a person has received the atonement.
See that word "atonement"?..... it describes something that is finished.
The blood atonement is finished.
This is because Sins of a believer, all of them, have been paid for, and that means, forever.
This is why Paul told YOU and ME in ......... Romans 4:8

Romans 4:8
8 ....“Blessed and happy and favored is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account nor charge against him.”


Now, jocor, do you understand the phrase you just read....."nor charge against him"?
Do you understand this?

And you say..."so you are telling me that if i SIN, then God does charge my sins against me, EVER AGAIN".

And i say......no, actually, Paul just told you that in your bible......so, will you believe it or disagree with your bible and with Paul?

Here is the thing......the reason that God will never charge a believers sins against them after they are saved, is because if he did that, then God is holding Jesus and us accountable., and as Jesus was already KILLED for the sins of the world, then the punishment the law required for our sinning, has been eternally paid for by the eternal blood of the Lamb.

The short story..
God is not going to double charge.
He has already charged Jesus with your sins, so, he is going to charge you for them, as well.

WELCOME TO SALVATION.
Its nothing like water baptism, is it?
its nothing like "doing good works"....is it?

And to answer your last comment.

Kidron, you are kidding me, right?
You are saying that a person can do anything, and there is no consequence for their "works of the flesh" (sins).
And i say, NOPE.......i didnt say that.
What i said is that Paul says and the bible says that you are not charged with the sins (works of the flesh) you commit, as Jesus has ALREADY been charged.
So then, what happens when we sin? ,.....Well, as believers we will suffer earthly consequences, but never never never eternal punishment.

******Earthly consequences for committing works of the flesh..(sinning):*****
Your conscience is tormented., and your fellowship with God feels awful, and remains like that, till you talk to God and work it out.
If you persist in your works of the flesh, then you'll over time, become less sensitive to God and the things of the Spirit.
If you go ever farther, then you get a Hebrews 12:6 experience.
If this does not bring you back in line, then you'll ultimately end up with a messed up life, a lost witness, a lost testimony, and have a shameful experience at the Judgment seat of Christ...... 2nd Corinthians 5:10
You can also get sick, and you can die (early).
But you cant lose your salvation, as salvation is not earned by you, so it cant be lost by you.
Salvation is God given and God maintained.
"Sonship", is eternal, however the type Son you are, is your decision.

 

[Jim Parker]

I said no such thing. I said the "copies" are not infallible. The fact that the Greek manuscripts do not agree 100% shows errors have crept in.

The vast majority of what you have called "errors" are of no consequence to the message of the passage in which they are found. Most are the equivalent of the difference in English between the word "were" and "was."

But I believe the notion of being "inerrant in the original monographs" borders on nonsense. It reveals a very shallow understanding of the splendid range of brilliant literary artistry to be found in the Bible and works to reduce it to a set of cold, lifeless, operating instructions.

The entire Bible, in all it's (decent) translations, is inerrant in communicating God's will and way of salvation. I have absolutely no hesitation in betting my eternal life on what the Bible communicates in any one of the translations I use.

I did NOT say "sinning willfully". I said, "willfully practices sin".

And in that word "practices" is the entire crux of the matter. It indicates that willful sinning is what that hypothetical person does as a way of life without any thought of repentance.

my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool

 

[jocor]

Just as there are bad bible versions, there are also manuscripts that have been altered.
However, this does not mean all bibles and all manuscripts have been altered, as you are trying to suggest. Try to refrain from the use of the word "all", and you'll have the right idea

Can you show me one place where I used the word "all"? How many times are you going to misquote me?

There is no sin, "willful" or "accidental", that the blood of Christ does not continue to pay for, once a person has received the atonement.

Hebrews 6:4-8; 10:26; Gal 5:19-21 tell me differently.

See that word "atonement"?..... it describes something that is finished.
The blood atonement is finished.
This is because Sins of a believer, all of them, have been paid for, and that means, forever.
This is why Paul told YOU and ME in ......... Romans 4:8

Sin is paid for if a person heart is right and he confesses it and repents of it. If he rebelliously continues in it, Yeshua's sacrifice no longer remains for him.

Romans 4:8

8 ....“Blessed and happy and favored is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account nor charge against him.”


Now, jocor, do you understand the phrase you just read....."nor charge against him"?
Do you understand this?

This holds true as long as the one who sins confesses and repents. The rebellious practice of sin tramples on the blood of Yeshua and will be charged against him because Yeshua sacrifice is made void by such unrepentant rebellion.

And you say..."so you are telling me that if i SIN, then God does charge my sins against me, EVER AGAIN".

And i say......no, actually, Paul just told you that in your bible......so, will you believe it or disagree with your bible and with Paul?

I don't disagree with my Bible or Paul. I disagree with your interpretation of Paul.

Here is the thing......the reason that God will never charge a believers sins against them after they are saved, is because if he did that, then God is holding Jesus and us accountable., and as Jesus was already KILLED for the sins of the world, then the punishment the law required for our sinning, has been eternally paid for by the eternal blood of the Lamb.

This holds true for those that remain in Messiah and do not deny him. There are those who deny him in word and deed. Messiah will deny them as well (2 Tim 2:12).

But you cant lose your salvation, as salvation is not earned by you, so it cant be lost by you.
Salvation is God given and God maintained.

As long as one accepts the gift of salvation, YHWH will maintain it. However, He has given us a free will. We can choose to return the gift. It is not a matter of losing the gift, but of willfully discarding it.

 

[jocor]

The vast majority of what you have called "errors" are of no consequence to the message of the passage in which they are found. Most are the equivalent of the difference in English between the word "were" and "was."

I agree, but the "vast majority" and "most" means there is a "small minority" and "some" differences of consequence.

I have absolutely no hesitation in betting my eternal life on what the Bible communicates in any one of the translations I use.

I can understand such a comment concerning our Hebrew or Greek copies, but not "translations". There are several key errors in translation that I would not give a plugged nickle for like "Easter" or "Jesus" or "the LORD'".

 

[Jim Parker]

I agree, but the "vast majority" and "most" means there is a "small minority" and "some" differences of consequence.


I can understand such a comment concerning our Hebrew or Greek copies, but not "translations". There are several key errors in translation that I would not give a plugged nickle for like "Easter" or "Jesus" or "the LORD'".

Are you an expert in Biblical Hebrew and Koine Greek?

What translation uses "Easter"? I haven't seen that. There is no corresponding word in the Bible.

The Greek word for "Passover" is "πάσχα." ( pascha )

"Jesus" is English for the Greek, " Ἰησοῦς"(Eesus)
"The Lord" is English for the Greek "κύριος" (kurios)

 

[evenifigoalone]

Are you an expert in Biblical Hebrew and Koine Greek?

What translation uses "Easter"? I haven't seen that.

King James, I believe?

 

[Jim Parker]

King James, I believe?

Your right. Once at Acts 12:4.

But then, no one speaks Jacobean English today and everyone who reads it knows exactly what is meant. There is no error in doctrine introduced by that one unfortunate choice of a word.

iakov the fool

 

[evenifigoalone]

I would agree that none of the errors are major in that they affect core doctrines. I can think of one or two additions that affect some sort of doctrine (those verses...at the end of Mark, I think?), but nothing essential to the faith.

 

[Jim Parker]

I would agree that none of the errors are major in that they affect core doctrines. I can think of one or two additions that affect some sort of doctrine (those verses...at the end of Mark, I think?), but nothing essential to the faith.

There are actually multiple thousands of such minor errors but the way those "errors" are counted is that if the same error (use of "we" instead of "us", for example) is found to have been copied into 5000 later manuscripts than that is counted as 5000 "errors."

Those who seek an excuse to justify their rejection of God's love use those numbers as a justification for rejecting the Bible as unreliable. People who don't know better (which is a large number as we are a low information society) are easily swayed because of their ignorance.

my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool

 

[turnorburn]

No errors in my bible..

tob

 

[Jim Parker]

No errors in my bible..

tob

None in any of mine either.

 

[Kidron]

Can you show me one place where I used the word "all"? How many times are you going to misquote me?
As long as one accepts the gift of salvation, YHWH will maintain it. However, He has given us a free will. We can choose to return the gift. It is not a matter of losing the gift, but of willfully discarding it.

Can you show me one place where I used the word "all"? How many times are you going to misquote me?

Can you show me one Greek text you can read?
Can you show me any textural differences the Vulgate, the Sinaiticus and the Textus Receptus?
Can you tell me why the Catholic Bible removed one of the 10 commandments about "graven images"? (#3)

so, when you can read greek, and have been trained in manuscript evidence, then i'll buy your opinion, perhaps, regarding blunt statements about bible versions, greek manuscripts, etc.


As long as one accepts the gift of salvation, YHWH will maintain it. However, He has given us a free will. We can choose to return the gift. It is not a matter of losing the gift, but of willfully discarding it.

Its impossible to give back a spiritual birth.
there is no such thing as "unborn again".
Think.

 

[Jim Parker]

Can you show me one place where I used the word "all"? How many times are you going to misquote me?

Can you tell me why the Catholic Bible removed one of the 10 commandments about "graven images"?

They didn't.

The following is from the Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, Exodus Ch. 20.

And the Lord spoke all these words: I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:

The fact that you would make such a blatantly false statement suggests to me that you didn't bother to check your source of that misinformation. All you had to do was Google the Catholic Bible and read it for yourself. That does not speak well of your scholarship.

So, if I may be so bold to suggest, as a devout Christian, (which it is quite apparent that you are) you probably will want to quit repeating the blatantly false statement lest people begin to discount your witness as also false.

my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

As long as one accepts the gift of salvation, YHWH will maintain it. However, He has given us a free will. We can choose to return the gift. It is not a matter of losing the gift, but of willfully discarding it.

That is correct, IMHO.

Is there some reason why you use YHWH and Yeshua instead of God and Jesus? Why not use English names while communicating with English-speaking people in the same way that Paul used Greek names for God (θεός [theos]) and Jesus (Ἰησοῦς [Iēsous]) when addressing Greek-speaking people? Are you more Jewish than Paul?

iakov the fool

 

[Kidron]

The fact that you would make such a blatantly false statement suggests to me that you didn't bother to check your source of that misinformation.

my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool

Sure i did.
And before you again accuse me of anything false, i'll remind you that twice i have POSTED and pointed out that you wrote...."you must be born again", as misquoted as..."you must be born again in water".......and both times you have not responded.
So, this explains why you are running to this post with your accusations.., while avoiding the other 2 times i have posted what you said, and you ignored it.
Right?
Now, you can believe this.....i dont post on sites like these and intentionally twist scriptures or knowingly post erroneous data.

My comment to you was based on a Catholic site.

http://www.catholicbible101.com/thetencommandments.htm

It explains the "commandment" situation like this...

"""""The protestants’ list forbids any graven images whatsoever, which is an extra commandment when compared to the Catholic listing"""""

And the site goes on to list the Catholic version of the 10, vs, the Protestant version of the 10.


Catholic version.....

1.I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.

2.You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain

3.Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day

4.Honor your father and your mother

5.You shall not kill

6.You shall not commit adultery

7.You shall not steal

8.You shall not bear false witness

9.You shall not covet your neighbor's wife

10.You shall not covet your neighbor's goods


In the Protestant Churches, they are as follows, with the differences highlighted:

1.You shall have no other gods but me.

2.******You shall not make unto you any graven images*****

3.You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain

4.You shall remember the Sabbath and keep it holy

5.Honor your mother and father

6.You shall not murder

7.You shall not commit adultery

8.You shall not steal

9.You shall not bear false witness

10.You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor

 

[Jim Parker]

Sure i did.

Really?

Here it is again:

from the Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, Exodus Ch. 20.

And the Lord spoke all these words: I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:

So, your assertion that "the Catholic Bible removed one of the 10 commandments about "graven images"? " is 100% FALSE.

It's right there in "black and white" (OK, green and blue and white) and right before your eyes.

How can you continue to assert the lie that the commandment was removed from the Catholic Bible after you have been shown the incontrovertible fact that the commandment is indeed included?

Which makes me wonder about your assertion ("sure i did") that you actually checked your source of that misinformation.

Your refusal to acknowledge what is put right in front of you leads me to wonder, why should anyone pay any attention to your comments??

i'll remind you that twice i have POSTED and pointed out that you wrote...."you must be born again", as misquoted as..."you must be born again in water".......and both times you have not responded.

Jhn 3:3-5 (NKJV)
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Both "born again" and "born again of water.." are used.
The reason I didn't respond is because you had totally missed the point and, by your responses, it seemed to me that trying to explain would be a waste of time. (Kind of like getting you to see that the Catholic Bible has, in fact, NOT removed the commandment not to make graven images.)

iakov the fool

 

[reba]

closed for review..

 

[reba]

TOS

Discussion of Catholic doctrine is limited and will only be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum and End Times forum only. RCC content in the End Times forum should relate to End Times beliefs. Do not start new topics elsewhere or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is may be viewed as ‘Catholic’ in nature.

 

[reba]

This thread will stay closed ... the TOS of zero RCC doctrine has been repeated often enough.. The disregard for the Terms of Service of this site wears thin.. I will look deeper , discuss with fellow mods about awarding points for the violations..

The RCC doctrine is not allowed... pro or con.