Bible Study Bible Study: Does God play favourites?

[JM]

Yes.

God does have favourites. We read in John 3:16 that God loves the world, but to say all men are loved on the same level is just not Biblical.

Fact: Jesus loved Peter more then Judas.

Scripture: Luke 22:31-32 "And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren."

John 17:9-12 "... While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

** Unless you believe that Judas was being prayed for and he was still lost. But that would mean the Father doesn't hear the prayer of the Son and that means descent in the Godhead.

Right now you should be asking why? Why didn't Jesus pray for Judas? Plain and simple, Jesus has a special love for His Bride, the Church. Eph. 5 (Not to mention Judas was lost on purpose according to the Scriptures, Psalm 41:9, John 6 where Jesus tells us: "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?" and John 17) Judas was chosen for a task, not for salvation.

The carnal mind hates God's truth (John 6:60), these Holy Doctrines are well rooted in Grace. As Spurgeon wrote: "I cannot shape the truth. I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine."

AMEN! I feel as Spurgeon does.

Do not answer quickly with "This is an hard saying; who can hear it?" But rather search the Scriptures to find the answer.

Ask yourself, what 'teaching' was hard to understand.

To say that God loves all men with equal love weakens what God has done of the Elect; providing and securing salvation. This salvation is the pure goodness of God that actually leads us to repent as we read in Romans 2:4 "...not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth to repentance?"

Fact: The non-elect are not lead to repent, since they do not. No fancy foowork is needed on this passage.

Without a copy of the Book of Life, no one knows who is elect and not. With this and John 3:16 in mind, we share the Gospel for God's glory by presenting the offer of salvation to all men and women. This teaching of Holy Scripture should empower you to spread the Gospel knowing it's God's power to convict a sinner and not the preacher who saves.

Does it matter? Yes, ask anyone who has come out of Arminianism if it matters.

Jason
PS: Before you go quoting Matt. 22:16 and Mark 12:14, look at the context. Jesus is speaking of the worldly station of the person.

 

[Shana]

Judas fulfilled his role in the plan of God, but God is also described as his Savior.God is described as the Savior of all men, especially of believers. (1 Timothy 4) He thus cares for all men. Jesus gave His life as a ransom for all men. (1 Timothy 2) Jesus taught us to love our enemies and to be perfect just as our Father is perfect, who is kind to the ungrateful and evil men. Jesus asked the Father to forgive those who killed Him. Do you not think that the Father will honor the Son's request? God is also described as agape love. (1John 4) God bless.

 

[element80]

make sure you're not confusing instances of phileo (brotherly love) with aape (self-sacrificial love). Jesus may phileo some more than others, but he agapes us all equally.

 

[Shana]

I agree. God bless.

 

[JM]

Holy: A biblical term generally meaning "to be set apart." The term is used widely in Scripture to refer to a variety of people and objects alike but ultimately points to God as the one who is qualitatively different or set apart from creation. Holy may also be used to describe someone or something that God has "set apart" for special purposes. In the NT holiness takes on the sense of ethical purity or freedom from sin. The fullness of the biblical witness, then, testifies to God's holiness, understood as God's "otherness" and "purity", as well as to God's prerogative to set people and things apart for God's own purposes, together with the resulting godliness in the lives of those whom God decleares to be holy. - Pocket Dictionary of Theological Terms

 

[JM]

make sure you're not confusing instances of phileo (brotherly love) with aape (self-sacrificial love). Jesus may phileo some more than others, but he agapes us all equally.

element80, where did you attend school to learn Greek? How long did you study? :

HENRY SCOUGAL wrote: "The worth and excellency of a soul is to be measured by the object of its love."

One said the other day, "I hate that text which says, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau have I hated.'" "Why?" said a friend; "what is the difficulty to your mind?" The reply was, "I cannot see why God should hate Esau." "Nay," said our friend, "I am not at all surprised that God hated Esau, but I am greatly amazed that God loved Jacob." - C.H. Spurgeon (An All-Round Ministry pg 289)

You are distorting the Love of God, mixing common Grace with saving Grace, it's just plain out bad theology.

God's particular, effective, selecting love toward his elect. The people of Israel are told:

"The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your forefathers that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh King of Egypt." Deut. 7:7-8; 4:37

Again:

"To the LORD your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it. Yet the LORD set his affection on your forefathers and loved them, and he chose you, their descendants, above all the nations, as it is today." Deut. 10:14-15

The striking thing about these passages is that when Israel is contrasted with the universe or with other nations, the distinguishing feature has nothing of personal or national merit; it is nothing other than the love of God. In the very nature of the case, then, God's love is directed toward Israel in these passages in a way in which it is not directed toward other nations.

I could go on and on, but I won't.

jason

 

[Shana]

The word for "hate" in this passage concerning Esau has a range of meaning from "intense hatred" to "simple opposition" (Zodhiates-Greek scholar)

God hated Esau, yet God is said to be the Savior of all men. Evidently, God's love for Esau (as He is described as agape love = love that does what is best for those who are loved, sacrificial love, unselfish love-Vines, Zodhiates) overrules any "hatred" he may have.

1 Timothy 4:10


God bless.

 

[JM]

The word for "hate" in this passage concerning Esau has a range of meaning from "intense hatred" to "simple opposition" (Zodhiates-Greek scholar)

God hated Esau, yet God is said to be the Savior of all men. Evidently, God's love for Esau (as He is described as agape love = love that does what is best for those who are loved, sacrificial love, unselfish love-Vines, Zodhiates) overrules any "hatred" he may have.

1 Timothy 4:10


God bless.

What you have done is called an "eisegesis."

Eisegesis is when a person interprets and reads information into the text that is not there. An example would be in viewing 1 Cor. 8:5 which says, "For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many," (KJV). With this verse, Mormons, for example, bring their preconceived idea of the existence of many gods to this text and assert that it says there are many gods. But that is not what it says. It says that there are many that are called gods. Being called a god doesn't make it a god. Therefore, the text does not teach what the Mormons say and they are guilty of eisegesis; that is, reading into the text what it does not say. See also exegesis. carm.org

No harmony can be found within your conclusions. You've changed the meaning to fit your theology...what happened to the rest of the Bible?

 

[Shana]

What are you talking about, Jason? The definition that I gave came from scholars of the language. Do you deny that the word hate in the passage can have a wide range of meanings? Do you deny that God is said to be the Savior of all men? Do you deny that it was God's good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself? Is God ever said to be Hate? Or is He said to be Love?



1 Timothy 4:10

10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe (NIV)



Thanks and God bless.

 

[element80]

What are you talking about, Jason? The definition that I gave came from scholars of the language. Do you deny that the word hate in the passage can have a wide range of meanings? Do you deny that God is said to be the Savior of all men? Do you deny that it was God's good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself? Is God ever said to be Hate? Or is He said to be Love?



1 Timothy 4:10

10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe (NIV)



Thanks and God bless.

The only problem with your argument is that the verse in question is from the OT, which was written in Hebrew, not Greek. It was, however, referred to in the NT, but I don't know how the translation was handled. Either way, you are right in the fact that just becasue it says hate in english, does not necessarily mean the type of hate that we think of. You would have to look at the original translation, to see what word was used, and then find the true translation of the word

 

[JM]

What are you talking about, Jason? The definition that I gave came from scholars of the language. Do you deny that the word hate in the passage can have a wide range of meanings? Do you deny that God is said to be the Savior of all men? Do you deny that it was God's good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself? Is God ever said to be Hate? Or is He said to be Love?



1 Timothy 4:10

10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe (NIV)



Thanks and God bless.

It's called contextual understanding, using the Bible to understand the Bible.

"Who is the Saviour of all men..." This is in a providential way, giving them live, keeping them alive and giving them a common Grace.

"Specially of those that believe..."

A contextual understanding is: whom though he saves with an eternal salvation; yet not of this, but of a temporal salvation, are the words to be understood: or as there is a general providence, which attends all mankind, there is a special one which relates to the elect of God; these are regarded in Providence, and are particularly saved and preserved before conversion, in order to be called; and after conversion, after they are brought to believe in Christ, they are preserved from many enemies, and are delivered out of many afflictions and temptations; and are the peculiar care and darlings of providence, being to God as the apple of his eye: and there is a great deal of reason to believe this, for if he is the Saviour of all men, then much more of them who are of more worth, value, and esteem with him, than all the world beside; and if they are saved by him with the greater salvation, then much more with the less; and if he the common Saviour of all men, and especially of saints, whom he saves both ways, then there is great reason to trust in him for the fulfilment of the promises of life, temporal and eternal, made to godliness, and godly persons. This epithet of God seems to be taken out of (Psalms 17:7) where he is called (Myowx eyvwm) , "the Saviour of them that trust", or believe.

 

[AVBunyan]

God does have favourites. We read in John 3:16 that God loves the world, but to say all men are loved on the same level is just not Biblical.

Fact: Jesus loved Peter more then Judas.

The carnal mind hates God's truth (John 6:60), these Holy Doctrines are well rooted in Grace. As Spurgeon wrote: "I cannot shape the truth. I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine."

Do not answer quickly with "This is an hard saying; who can hear it?" But rather search the Scriptures to find the answer.

To say that God loves all men with equal love weakens what God has done of the Elect; providing and securing salvation.

Amen - nice post Jason - unregenrate man hates the fact that God will do as he pleases and what he does is always right.

Keep hammering the doctrines of grace on folks, brother - I'll take grace "hammered" on me anyday than the law.

god bless

 

[Shana]

What is your reference for this, Jason? Is this someone else's interpretation? Are the words in blue, your words?

Let me ask you this. Do you believe that agape love, love that does what is best for those who are loved, is a Savior for those who have not been elected? How can He be their Savior if they are born to suffer in hell for all of eternity because they are not called? It would be better to not be born. This would be a cruel joke, Jason, to give men life on the earth with the intention of casting them into eternal hell and this because they have not been chosen or elected to be saved.

Who is the Saviour of all men..." This is in a providential way, giving them live, keeping them alive and giving them a common Grace

.

What is this? God keeping men alive on earth to burn them in hell for all of eternity because they are not predestinted or elected to be saved?




Jesus describes God as being kind to all men.





How would it be kind of God to give men life to only have them be born into this life to suffer in hell for all of eternity because they have not been chosen to be saved?
It was God's good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself (Colossians 1)


I asked you a question, Jason. Have you ever been a sinner? Did you every want God? If you did, why did you want Him? God bless.

 

[JM]

The blue was written by John Gill.

Before I knew Jesus, I hated God. I didn't seek Him and was happy to be left alone, I didn't want to be 'saved', I wanted nothing to do with His holiness.

I'm done with this thread as well, you're using emotion to make an arguement that isn't Biblical.

Pure emotion, no Biblical grounding for this:

This would be a cruel joke, Jason, to give men life on the earth with the intention of casting them into eternal hell and this because they have not been chosen or elected to be saved.

The carnal mind hates God and His decrees.

 

[Shana]

Get real, Jason. It has nothing to do with the carnal mind. It's called love, Jason, agape love. It is a fruit of God's Holy Spirit. God is described as love.



The words of our Lord Jesus Christ:

" 32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.


33"If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.


34"If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount.


35"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.


36"Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful

These are the words of Jesus found in the scriptures, the Bible.

Before I knew Jesus, I hated God. I didn't seek Him and was happy to be left alone, I didn't want to be 'saved', I wanted nothing to do with His holiness.

And why did you change from having this attitude? Why did you hate Him? Why didn't you seek Him? Did it have something to do with being in bondage to sin, being blinded by the god of this age, being lost, deceived?



God bless you.

 

[Shana]

To save: from sozo, sodezo

AV - save 93, make whole 9, heal 3, be whole 2, misc 3; 110

1) to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction
1a) one (from injury or peril)
1a1) to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one
suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health
1b1) to preserve one who is in danger of destruction,
to save or rescue
1b) to save in the technical biblical sense
1b1) negatively
1b1a) to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment
1b1b) to save from the evils which obstruct the reception
of the Messianic deliverance
http://www.searchgodsword.org/

 

[Dean]

I used to respect Calvinists for the logical rigor presented in their discussions, but now I see them bleeding into Orwellian doublespeak.

Just because you can construct a sentence to say a thing, doesn't make that thing COHERENT.

"God didn't CHOOSE SOME FOR HELL, he merely chose SOME for salvation."

You know, we must suffer the little children to come to Christ, and even my 3 year old wouldn't let me get away with THAT ONE.

"Daddy, didn't God make ALL people?"

"Well, yes, Nazareth, he did."

"And didn't you tell me he knew the number of hairs on my head?"

"Of course, Nazareth, because he loves you!"

"But what if He DOESN'T, DADDY? WHAT IF MY UNREGENERATE STATE IS UNELECTED TO GOD'S GIFT OF GRACE.!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT IF MY TOTAL DEPRAVITY WAS NEVER PREDESTINED TO BE ATONED BY JESUS'S LIMITED WORK!!!!!!!!!!"

"Well, my dear boy, then you're just s--- out of luck."

Vomit this disgusting idea back into the toilet it crawled out from. Walk past a nursery school, and look at the children. Then comfort yourself with the brilliant words of Spurgeon: "I am not at all surprised that God hates [MOST of these children], but I am greatly amazed that God loves [SOME of these children]" Now scream hideous obscenities at the void, for if we live in a comos with a sovereign less righteous than YOU, then we might as well embrace the VOID.

Create a club for your elect. Email each other, tell each other in Edwardian English (and Authorized Scripture) how righteous and holy it is to be CHOSEN, and write off the scabrous rabble you believe God hates. But don't ascribe this INSANITY to the Almighty Alpha and Omega, the Lord of the Heavens who created ALL and sustains all by the Word of His mouth.

"Jesus loves me, this I KNOW.
For the BIBLE tells me so.
LITTLE ONES to Him belong.
They are weak but He is strong.
Yes, Jesus loves me,
Yes, Jesus loves me,
Yes, Jesus loves me,
The Bible tells me so."

 

[archer]

My question is.... Why should God save any?

 

[Dean]

God holds us to His Own standard:

I Tim 3:12 A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.

Titus 1:6 An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.

 

[JM]

archer, God shouldn't save anyone.

No double talk from me, ALL (meaning everyone, all mankind) are hell bound. God saved some. No double talk at all.