[_ Old Earth _] Biblical evidence before Science knew?

[jwu]

2. Anybody who watches the moon for a month knows that the earth is round and not a flat circle.

No, someone who does that can deduce that the moon is round, but one cannot draw conclusions about the shape of the earth. Even lunar eclipses only show a two dimensional shadow of the earth, which fits with a flat circular earth.

 

[Solo]

Two points:

1. Popular opinion doesn't mean anything. The Bible states that Adam and Eve were literal people, and Jesus refered to them as literal people.

2. Anybody who watches the moon for a month knows that the earth is round and not a flat circle.

You should have phrased #2. as, "Anybody with any brains who watches the moon for a month knows that the earth is round and not a flat circle.

 

[reznwerks]

rephrase

Two points:

1. Popular opinion doesn't mean anything. The Bible states that Adam and Eve were literal people, and Jesus refered to them as literal people.

2. Anybody who watches the moon for a month knows that the earth is round and not a flat circle.

You should have phrased #2. as, "Anybody with any brains who watches the moon for a month knows that the earth is round and not a flat circle.

Perhaps you could rephrase it to go like this: Does anyone who watches the moon for a month have any brains? How can someone watching the moon for month come to the conclusion that the earth is round? It's common sense that tells someone the earth is flat. You see in straight trajectory not around corners. The human eye cannot see the curvature of the earth. The bible itself talks several times about the flat earth and resting on pillars both implying a flat area. Satan tempted Jesus by prodding him to look at all the kingdoms that would be given him implying that Jesus could look at the entire earth at one time.

 

[Khristeeanos]

Re: rephrase

Two points:

1. Popular opinion doesn't mean anything. The Bible states that Adam and Eve were literal people, and Jesus refered to them as literal people.

2. Anybody who watches the moon for a month knows that the earth is round and not a flat circle.

You should have phrased #2. as, "Anybody with any brains who watches the moon for a month knows that the earth is round and not a flat circle.

Perhaps you could rephrase it to go like this: Does anyone who watches the moon for a month have any brains? How can someone watching the moon for month come to the conclusion that the earth is round? It's common sense that tells someone the earth is flat. You see in straight trajectory not around corners. The human eye cannot see the curvature of the earth. The bible itself talks several times about the flat earth and resting on pillars both implying a flat area. Satan tempted Jesus by prodding him to look at all the kingdoms that would be given him implying that Jesus could look at the entire earth at one time.

Anybody who goes onto an ocean where they are completely surrounded by water and watches a ship come over the horizon can tell the earth is curved.

Anybody who goes up to the top of a very tall mountain and looks out can see the curvature of the earth.


Quit blaming God for your inability to understand the Bible.

Do you also blame the weather man when he says the sun will "rise" and "set" when we know he doesn't really believe the sun rises and sets but uses terms that we are familiar with?

 

[reznwerks]

Re: rephrase

Two points:

1. Popular opinion doesn't mean anything. The Bible states that Adam and Eve were literal people, and Jesus refered to them as literal people.

2. Anybody who watches the moon for a month knows that the earth is round and not a flat circle.

You should have phrased #2. as, "Anybody with any brains who watches the moon for a month knows that the earth is round and not a flat circle.

Perhaps you could rephrase it to go like this: Does anyone who watches the moon for a month have any brains? How can someone watching the moon for month come to the conclusion that the earth is round? It's common sense that tells someone the earth is flat. You see in straight trajectory not around corners. The human eye cannot see the curvature of the earth. The bible itself talks several times about the flat earth and resting on pillars both implying a flat area. Satan tempted Jesus by prodding him to look at all the kingdoms that would be given him implying that Jesus could look at the entire earth at one time.

Anybody who goes onto an ocean where they are completely surrounded by water and watches a ship come over the horizon can tell the earth is curved.
You know this because we now know that the earth is round and this is what happens. I don't know about you but when things get farther away they get smaller. If the earth was in fact flat the same phenomenon would occur. The ship would appear first as a tiny speck and then it would get bigger. I don't believe I am having this conversation with an adult.

Anybody who goes up to the top of a very tall mountain and looks out can see the curvature of the earth.
You know it's the curvature of the earth but it's not so pronounced to proclaim the earth round from someone who does not know better.

Quit blaming God for your inability to understand the Bible.
I don't blame God for anything as I don't think he's there. As for understanding the bible apparantly this thing about understanding it eludes many many others. I would think that the creator of the universe would have known this would happen and would have preempted the situation by writing something his creation would all understand equally.

Do you also blame the weather man when he says the sun will "rise" and "set" when we know he doesn't really believe the sun rises and sets but uses terms that we are familiar with?

I think you understand what I am saying but you haven't quite grasped the simplicity of it. The weatherman speaks in terminology that the audience understands. Why does this technique elude the creator of the universe when he supposedly wrote or inspired the bible to be written.

 

[Charlie Hatchett]

Contrary to what most people think, the Earth was known to be spherical in

ancient times. The ancient Greeks even calculated its circumference with

surprising accuracy. King Solomon commissioned a navy of sorts, when he

teamed up with his allies, The Phoenicians to build his famous temple. The

Phoenicians used celestial navigation in open water, which requires by

definition, knowledge of a spherical earth. They were capable of deriving

their latitude and longitude with amazing accuracy.

The sun moving across the commonly cloudless Mediterranean sky gave

them their direction and quarter. The quarters we know today as east and

west the Phoenicians knew as Asu (sunrise) and Ereb (sunset), labels that

live today in the names Asia and Europe. These quarters are 90 degrees of

arc, which they obviously observed repeatedly. The stars and other celestial

bodies are so far away they seem to be located on the surface of an

imaginary sphere, with its center located at the center of the earth.


Some Bible critics have claimed that Revelation 7:1 assumes a flat earth

since the verse refers to angels standing at the "four corners" of the earth.

Actually, the reference is to the cardinal directions: north, south, east, and

west. Similar terminology is often used today when we speak of the sun's

rising and setting, even though the earth, not the sun, is doing the moving.



Hebrews 1:10 : "Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of

the earth, And the heavens are the works of Thy hands..."

This is a quote from Psalm 102:24-25 which says:

"I say, 'O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days, Thy years

are throughout all generations. 25Of old Thou didst found the earth;

And the heavens are the work of Thy hands.'"

In Genesis 1:1 we have the founding of the world (Hebrews 1:10 =

themelioo).

Here's Hebrews 1:10 translated literally:

Young's Literal Translation

1:10 and, `Thou, at the beginning, Lord, the earth didst found, and a work

of thy hands are the heavens;


It's apparent, in context of what they were quoting, that the Lord created

(founded) the earth.


mtsbq - "Transliterated Hebrew spelling for the word 'pillars' [1 Samuel

2:8]= 'situate' =To place in a certain spot or position; locate.


If one studies the original langauges of the Old and New Testament, these

apparent contradictions are resolved. It's in the translation to different

langauges from the original that apparent contradictions exist.


Peace

 

[reznwerks]

earth

Contrary to what most people think, the Earth was known to be spherical in

ancient times. The ancient Greeks even calculated its circumference with

surprising accuracy. King Solomon commissioned a navy of sorts, when he

teamed up with his allies, The Phoenicians to build his famous temple. The

Phoenicians used celestial navigation in open water, which requires by

definition, knowledge of a spherical earth. They were capable of deriving

their latitude and longitude with amazing accuracy.

The sun moving across the commonly cloudless Mediterranean sky gave

them their direction and quarter. The quarters we know today as east and

west the Phoenicians knew as Asu (sunrise) and Ereb (sunset), labels that

live today in the names Asia and Europe. These quarters are 90 degrees of

arc, which they obviously observed repeatedly. The stars and other celestial

bodies are so far away they seem to be located on the surface of an

imaginary sphere, with its center located at the center of the earth.


Some Bible critics have claimed that Revelation 7:1 assumes a flat earth

since the verse refers to angels standing at the "four corners" of the earth.

Actually, the reference is to the cardinal directions: north, south, east, and

west. Similar terminology is often used today when we speak of the sun's

rising and setting, even though the earth, not the sun, is doing the moving.



Hebrews 1:10 : "Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of

the earth, And the heavens are the works of Thy hands..."

This is a quote from Psalm 102:24-25 which says:

"I say, 'O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days, Thy years

are throughout all generations. 25Of old Thou didst found the earth;

And the heavens are the work of Thy hands.'"

In Genesis 1:1 we have the founding of the world (Hebrews 1:10 =

themelioo).

Here's Hebrews 1:10 translated literally:

Young's Literal Translation

1:10 and, `Thou, at the beginning, Lord, the earth didst found, and a work

of thy hands are the heavens;


It's apparent, in context of what they were quoting, that the Lord created

(founded) the earth.


mtsbq - "Transliterated Hebrew spelling for the word 'pillars' [1 Samuel

2:8]= 'situate' =To place in a certain spot or position; locate.


If one studies the original langauges of the Old and New Testament, these

apparent contradictions are resolved. It's in the translation to different

langauges from the original that apparent contradictions exist.


Peace

You correctly point out that there were those at the time that believed the earth was round. The arguement here is that it is claimed the bible somehow had super knowledge that no one else had. You only confirm that the knowledge was known by others and not associated with the Hebrews or Christianity but conveniently in the general geographical location. It is not much of a strectch to assume the writers of which there were many included references to a round earth and and again as you refer to a flat earth and imovable (pillars). Your response only strengthens my position that the bible offers nothing new in it's contribution to science.

 

[Charlie Hatchett]

Fair enough.

My point was there is only an apparent contradiction.

No doubt in my mind that the ancient Hebrew sailors new the earth was round.

Peace

 

[jwu]

The Phoenicians to build his famous temple. The

Phoenicians used celestial navigation in open water, which requires by

definition, knowledge of a spherical earth.

It doesn't...while they may have known that the earth is a sphere, one can derive tha latitude in case of a "dome" of stars as well. It's just somewhat more complicated. And even without that math the earth still can be relatively flat, it doesn't have to be a full sphere but can be a section of one.

They were capable of deriving

their latitude and longitude with amazing accuracy.

No, only latitude. In order to get the longitude one needs very precise clocks to know what precise time it is, which they didn't have. Else the virtual movement of other stars due to the rotation of the earth ruins this, misestimating the time of the day by merely 10 minutes would put you off by up to 280km (at the equator). The latitude can be measured accurately without knowledge of the precise time because polaris is quite exactly above the earth's axis and therefore doesn't appear to move during its rotation.

 

[Charlie Hatchett]

No, only latitude. In order to get the longitude one needs very precise clocks to know what precise time it is, which they didn't have. Else the virtual movement of other stars due to the rotation of the earth ruins this, misestimating the time of the day by merely 10 minutes would put you off by up to 280km (at the equator). The latitude can be measured accurately without knowledge of the precise time because polaris is quite exactly above the earth's axis and therefore doesn't appear to move during its rotation.

Actually, only an object with rapid relative movement across the sky is

needed....i.e. The Moon...to determine time and longitude.


Chichester,F., Longitude without time, in: Journal of the Institute of
Navigation, Vol. 19 (1966), 106 -107 (with comments by D.H. Sadler, one
time superintendent of HM Nautical Almanac Office, p. 107 - 109).

Evans, J.J., Longitude without time, in: Journal of the Institute of
Navigation, Vol. 19 (1966), 392 - 394.

Sadler, D.H., Longitude without time, in: Journal of the Institute of
Navigation, Vol. 21 (1968), 234 - 235.

Ortlepp, Bruno, Longitude without time, in: Navigation (Washington),
Vol. 16 (1969), 29 - 31.

Wright, Frances W. , Examples of Moon Sights to Obtain Time and
Longitude, in: Navigation (Washington), Vol. 18, 292 - 297.

Kerst, D.W., Longitude Without Time, in: Navigation (Washington), Vol.
22 (1975), 283 - 292.

Luce, J.W., Longitude Without Time, in: Navigation (Washington), Vol. 24
(1977), 112 - 115.

Kerst, D.W., Comments on "Longitude Without Time", in: Navigation
(Washington), Vol. 25 (1978), 87 - 90.


A short section on lunar altitudes can also be found in:
H.M. Nautical Almanac Office, A Modern View of Lunar Distances, in:
Journal of the Institute of Navigation, Vol. 19 (1966), 131 - 153 (p.133
- 134)


Peace

 

[Charlie Hatchett]

It doesn't...while they may have known that the earth is a sphere, one can derive tha latitude in case of a "dome" of stars as well. It's just somewhat more complicated. And even without that math the earth still can be relatively flat, it doesn't have to be a full sphere but can be a section of one.

You'd still have to rotate the plane your proposing in three dimensions, which

rules out flat.

Peace

 

[jwu]

Actually, only an object with rapid relative movement across the sky is

needed....i.e. The Moon...to determine time and longitude.

The lunar transit method is very difficult and error prone due to sensitivity to measurement errors, and the lunar distance method requires previouslyy established tables - which one cannot get without another method of finding the latitude.

You'd still have to rotate the plane your proposing in three dimensions, which rules out flat.

Why would this rule out flatness, and why would it even have to be rotated? I cannot follow your line of reasoning.

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

You should have phrased #2. as, "Anybody with any brains who watches the moon for a month knows that the earth is round and not a flat circle.

Well if that's the case then pretty much all ancient peoples would have known this to be true since all so called primitive societies were acute watchers of the moon (i.e. the ancient egyptians and ancient Maya).