Biblical Foreknowledge

Alfred, I would like to call your attention to post#12.

In this post as well as others, a key distinction is made, that I believe you consistently bypass or flat out ignore.
Read each sentence one at a time. What i would ask is
1] get a legal pad,

2] write each sentence down

3] see what the writer is saying

4] I am not asking you to agree with it

5] I am asking that you write down accurately what the writer is saying

6] Then if you do not agree, show why from what the writer says

7] Do not make generalizations

If you want me to do it for you ,I will. If you do not agree, fine, but at least you will know what you do not agree with, accurately
 
Broadly speaking there have been two general views as to the meaning and use of the word “foreknew” in Romans 8:29.

One class of commentators (the Arminians) maintain that Paul is saying that God predestined to salvation those whom He foreknew would respond to His offer of grace (i.e., those whom He saw would of their own free will repent of their sins and believe the gospel).

Godet, in commenting on Romans 8:29, asks the question: “In what respect did God thus foreknow them?” and answers that they were “foreknown as sure to fulfill the conditions of salvation, viz. faith; so: foreknown as His by faith.” 1 The word "foreknew” is thus understood by Arminians to mean that God knew beforehand which sinners would believe, etc., and on the basis of this knowledge He predestined them unto salvation.

The other class of commentators (the Calvinists) reject the above view on two grounds.

First, because the Arminians’ interpretation is not in keeping with the meaning of Paul’s language

and second, because it is out of harmony with the system of doctrine taught in the rest of the Scriptures.

Calvinists contend that the passage teaches that God set His heart upon (i.e., foreknew) certain individuals; these He predestined or marked out to be saved.

Notice that the text does not say that God knew SOMETHING ABOUT particular individuals (that they would do this or that),

but it states that God knew the individuals THEMSELVES – those whom He knew He predestined to be made like Christ.

The word “foreknew” as used here is thus understood to be equivalent to “foreloved” – those who were the objects of God’s love, He marked out for salvation.

The questions raised by the two opposing interpretations are these: Did God look down through time and see that certain individuals would believe and thus predestine them unto salvation on the basis of this foreseen faith?

Or did God set His heart on certain individuals and because of His love for them predestine that they should be called and given faith in Christ by the Holy Spirit and thus be saved?

In other words, is the individual’s faith the cause or the result of God’s predestination?

A. The meaning of “foreknew” in Romans 8:29
God has always possessed perfect knowledge of all creatures and of all events.

There has never been a time when anything past, present, or future was not fully known to Him.*

But it is not His knowledge of future events (of what people would do, etc.) which is referred to in Romans 8:29,30,

for Paul clearly states that those whom He foreknew He predestined, He called, He justified, etc. Since all men are notpredestined, called, and justified,

it follows that all men were not foreknown by God in the sense spoken of in verse 29.

It is for this reason that the Arminians are forced to add some qualifying notion. They read into the passage some idea not contained in the language itself such as those whom He foreknew would believe etc.,

He predestined, called and justified. But according to the Biblical usage of the words “know,” “knew,” and “foreknew” there is not the least need to make such an addition, and since it is unnecessary, it is improper.

When the Bible speaks of God knowing particular individuals, it often means that He has special regard for them, that they are the objects of His affection and concern.

For example in Amos 3:2, God, speaking to Israel says,“You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.” The Lord knows about all the families of the earth, but He knew Israel in a special way.*

They were His chosen people whom He had set His heart upon. See Deuteronomy 7:7,8; 10:15. Because Israel was His in a special sense He chastised them, cf. Hebrews 12:5,6.*

God, speaking to Jeremiah, said, “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you,” (Jeremiah 1:5). The meaning here is not that God knew about Jeremiah but that He had a special regard for the prophet before He formed him in his mother’s womb. Jesus also used the word “knew” in the sense of personal, intimate awareness.

“On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers’ “ (Matt. 7:22,23).

Our Lord cannot be understood here as saying, I knew nothing about you, for it is quite evident that He knew all too much about them – their evil character and evil works;

hence, His meaning must be, I never knew you intimately nor personally, I never regarded you as the objects of my favor or love. Paul uses the word in the same way in I Corinthians 8:3, “But if one loves God, one is known by him,”

and also II Timothy 2:19, “the Lord knows those who are His.” The Lord knows about all men but He only knows those “who love Him, who are called according to His purpose” (Rom 8:28) – those who are His!
 
Alfred, I would like to call your attention to post#12.

In this post as well as others, a key distinction is made, that I believe you consistently bypass or flat out ignore.
Read each sentence one at a time. What i would ask is
1] get a legal pad,

2] write each sentence down

3] see what the writer is saying

4] I am not asking you to agree with it

5] I am asking that you write down accurately what the writer is saying

6] Then if you do not agree, show why from what the writer says

7] Do not make generalizations

If you want me to do it for you ,I will. If you do not agree, fine, but at least you will know what you do not agree with, accurately
Absurd, especially as you refuse to address the ONE premise upon which all Calvin's eisegesis rests, that God was foreknowing sinners, rather than people before the foundation of the world---before they were born or had done good or bad.

(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (Rom. 9:11 NKJ)

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, (Eph. 1:4 NKJ)
 
Absurd, especially as you refuse to address the ONE premise upon which all Calvin's eisegesis rests, that God was foreknowing sinners, rather than people before the foundation of the world---before they were born or had done good or bad.

(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (Rom. 9:11 NKJ)

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, (Eph. 1:4 NKJ)
Absurd, especially as you refuse to address the ONE premise upon which all Calvin's eisegesis rests, that God was foreknowing sinners, rather than people before the foundation of the world---before they were born or had done good or bad.

Are you suggesting the lord did not know humans would be sinners?
 
Are you suggesting the lord did not know humans would be sinners?
Absurd strawman. It follows from salvation by grace not works, election before creation, that Omniscient God who elected according to His foreknowledge (1 Pet 1:2), knew something in the unfallen versions of us He loved, AND therefore He predestined THEM unto salvation:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? (Rom. 8:28-31 NKJ)

Love is not a work, its a response. When unfallen versions of us became self aware, and fully knew God and His goodness, and His love, in His Omniscience they responded to Him with love, of their own free will.

They are the children of God, therefore God ordained all things work for their good.

God didn't predestine anyone else for anything. They are free to choose to join the Elect. God will accept them in love. But the ones who responded to God with love, God will not lose one of them, they are His.
 
Absurd strawman. It follows from salvation by grace not works, election before creation, that Omniscient God who elected according to His foreknowledge (1 Pet 1:2), knew something in the unfallen versions of us He loved, AND therefore He predestined THEM unto salvation:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? (Rom. 8:28-31 NKJ)

Love is not a work, its a response. When unfallen versions of us became self aware, and fully knew God and His goodness, and His love, in His Omniscience they responded to Him with love, of their own free will.

They are the children of God, therefore God ordained all things work for their good.

God didn't predestine anyone else for anything. They are free to choose to join the Elect. God will accept them in love. But the ones who responded to God with love, God will not lose one of them, they are His.
Absurd strawman. It follows from salvation by grace not works, election before creation, that Omniscient God who elected according to His foreknowledge (1 Pet 1:2), knew something in the unfallen versions of us He loved, AND therefore He predestined THEM unto salvation:

So, the Lord had foreknowledge of sinful humans He would draw unto Him for salvation.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? (Rom. 8:28-31 NKJ)

Iconoclast gave you those verses, but you would not accept them.

Love is not a work, its a response.
Biblical love is an action.

When unfallen versions of us became self aware, and fully knew God and His goodness, and His love, in His Omniscience they responded to Him with love, of their own free will.

This is not Biblical.
 
So, the Lord had foreknowledge of sinful humans He would draw unto Him for salvation.


Iconoclast gave you those verses, but you would not accept them.


Biblical love is an action.



This is not Biblical.

Tag teaming me doesn't address any point I raised.

Its possible a gaggle of followers will read "this is not biblical" and march off into the distance...

but then again, perhaps there are no followers

Big Mouth Lol GIF by MOODMAN



Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes. (Prov. 26:5 NKJ)
 
What is absurd is you not actually commenting on the links.


especially as you refuse to address the ONE premise upon which all Calvin's eisegesis rests
I have quoted Calvin at all, you are just objecting to object.

, that God was foreknowing sinners, rather than people before the foundation of the world---before they were born or had done good or bad.
That is what the bible teaches, that is why Jesus is said to be the Lamb Slain before the world was. I answered you two times...Why Did Jesus have to be said to be the Lamb slain? slain for what purpose if sin was not in view ?
(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (Rom. 9:11 NKJ)
They had not sinned by experience, only in Adam
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, (Eph. 1:4 NKJ)
You need to read the links. You need to work through post 12 like I showed you.
 
What is absurd is you not actually commenting on the links.



I have quoted Calvin at all, you are just objecting to object.


That is what the bible teaches, that is why Jesus is said to be the Lamb Slain before the world was. I answered you two times...Why Did Jesus have to be said to be the Lamb slain? slain for what purpose if sin was not in view ?

They had not sinned by experience, only in Adam

You need to read the links. You need to work through post 12 like I showed you.
I don't respond to links. Copy paste the precise premise, not a book length article, and I'll respond.

Calvin isn't scripture.

No, its not what the Bible teaches. Sin was in view speaking about the Lamb of God, but scripture expressly says sin was NOT in view when God Elected:

(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (Rom. 9:11 NKJ)

Paul chose a scriptural example to prove the premise God's Election was according to His good pleasure and will, NOT sin:

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, (Eph. 1:4-5 NKJ)

The text does NOT refer to any sins, actual or inherited. Election happened in God, according to His good pleasure, NOT SIN.

I am talking to you, not a link. If you can't defend your beliefs, stop replying.
 
Tag teaming me doesn't address any point I raised.

Its possible a gaggle of followers will read "this is not biblical" and march off into the distance...

but then again, perhaps there are no followers

Big Mouth Lol GIF by MOODMAN



Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes. (Prov. 26:5 NKJ)
you ignore post 22,why is that?
I don't respond to links.
Fact is you cannot respond to anything.


Copy paste the precise premise, not a book length article, and I'll respond.
You show that you cannot respond by your juvenile remarks
Calvin isn't scripture.
I have not quoted Calvin. This is where you run and hide. You cannot answer a biblical Calvinist with your shallow ideas
No, its not what the Bible teaches.
It is or you would have answered already, you do not have anything.
Sin was in view speaking about the Lamb of God, but scripture expressly says sin was NOT in view when God Elected:
It does not say any such thing. You have been shown that.

(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (Rom. 9:11 NKJ)
This has been answered


Paul chose a scriptural example to prove the premise God's Election was according to His good pleasure and will, NOT sin:

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, (Eph. 1:4-5 NKJ)

The text does NOT refer to any sins, actual or inherited. Election happened in God, according to His good pleasure, NOT SIN.

I am talking to you, not a link. If you can't defend your beliefs, stop replying.
If you do not recognize solid biblical teaching. You have nothing to offer here. You can make up your own stories.
I offered you help, you turn away from it. It is on you
 
you ignore post 22,why is that?

Fact is you cannot respond to anything.



You show that you cannot respond by your juvenile remarks

I have not quoted Calvin. This is where you run and hide. You cannot answer a biblical Calvinist with your shallow ideas

It is or you would have answered already, you do not have anything
.

It does not say any such thing. You have been shown that.

This has been answered


If you do not recognize solid biblical teaching. You have nothing to offer here. You can make up your own stories.

I offered you help, you turn away from it. It is on you
Post 22 isn't your post, and I don't read most long posts. Which is odd, because I love bloviating and usually post too much.

I respond to logical argument. You fail to provide that. Labeling my arguments "unbiblical" only works for your followers, those who believe whatever you say. I'm sure there are many of those:

Big Mouth Lol GIF by MOODMAN



Claiming "it don't say that...that's been answered..." is what you can say to your followers.

If you want to prove I am wrong to me or other thinking Christians, you must make a cogent argument.

Merry Christmas!
 
Post 22 isn't your post, and I don't read most long posts. Which is odd, because I love bloviating and usually post too much.

I respond to logical argument. You fail to provide that. Labeling my arguments "unbiblical" only works for your followers, those who believe whatever you say. I'm sure there are many of those:

Big Mouth Lol GIF by MOODMAN



Claiming "it don't say that...that's been answered..." is what you can say to your followers.

If you want to prove I am wrong to me or other thinking Christians, you must make a cogent argument.

Merry Christmas!
I do not do logic and philosophy. I stay in scripture. My posts and links are long, so you will not like them.
 
I do not do logic and philosophy. I stay in scripture. My posts and links are long, so you will not like them.
We all "argue" every day to persuade people to buy, like, or dislike "xyz".

Argumentation in apologetics is more advanced. There are rules:

A Rulebook for Arguments 5th Edition, Kindle Edition​

by Anthony Weston (Author) Format: Kindle Edition


That's not the only book on Arguments, but its on everyone's list so you should check it out.

Scripture requires Christians have the skills needed to give a defense of Christianity, to everyone who asks:

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; (1 Pet. 3:15 NKJ)
 
you ignore post 22,why is that?

Fact is you cannot respond to anything.



You show that you cannot respond by your juvenile remarks

I have not quoted Calvin. This is where you run and hide. You cannot answer a biblical Calvinist with your shallow ideas

It is or you would have answered already, you do not have anything
.

It does not say any such thing. You have been shown that.

This has been answered


If you do not recognize solid biblical teaching. You have nothing to offer here. You can make up your own stories.

I offered you help, you turn away from it. It is on you
I confused you with the other guy, 22 is your post and I didn't ignore it. I stopped reading after this:


One class of commentators (the Arminians) maintain that Paul is saying that God predestined to salvation those whom He foreknew would respond to His offer of grace (i.e., those whom He saw would of their own free will repent of their sins and believe the gospel).


I am not an Arminian, God didn't base Election on acts of sinners in this fallen realm.

I have repeatedly challenged you to address MY position, and not Arminius and you refuse to do that.

Before God created He foreknew all who would love Him if the fall never happened, and THESE He predestined to salvation:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Rom. 8:28-29 NKJ)
 
We all "argue" every day to persuade people to buy, like, or dislike "xyz".

Argumentation in apologetics is more advanced. There are rules:

A Rulebook for Arguments 5th Edition, Kindle Edition​

by Anthony Weston (Author) Format: Kindle Edition


That's not the only book on Arguments, but its on everyone's list so you should check it out.

Scripture requires Christians have the skills needed to give a defense of Christianity, to everyone who asks:

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; (1 Pet. 3:15 NKJ)
You are welcome to follow that. I will follow scripture. My answer for 1Pet.3:15 will come from scripture.
One of the links I offered you was from John Brown of Haddington. He was a poor man, but studied hard and taught himself the Greek language. He was regarded as one of the most gifted theologians who ever lived. In other words, He forgot more about scripture than you will ever know.
Nevertheless, you rejected the link, and the other men who are also known worldwide. You can do that and stick with your logic and bumper sticker theology. I will read and post solid links from people who actually help other people.

Anyone who knows theology knows you have it wrong. Maybe others will ask you questions to gather your keen insights, but I will not be one of them. I come to help those who want to learn, not those who claim to know it all.
In your post#34 your position is covered in the portion you quote. You do not want to identify as an Arminian, ok, but you say the same thing in principle that they do here;

Before God created He foreknew all who would love Him if the fall never happened, and THESE He predestined to salvation:

Here was the quote, it is the same thing;One class of commentators (the Arminians) maintain that Paul is saying that God predestined to salvation those whom He foreknew would respond to His offer of grace (i.e., those whom He saw would of their own free will repent of their sins and believe the gospel).
No one loves God without being indwelt by the Spirit of God.
10 Herein is love,
not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
 
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Tag teaming me doesn't address any point I raised.

Its possible a gaggle of followers will read "this is not biblical" and march off into the distance...

but then again, perhaps there are no followers

Big Mouth Lol GIF by MOODMAN



Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes. (Prov. 26:5 NKJ)
Tag teaming?

Folly?

Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in discernment, But only in revealing his own heart.
 
You are welcome to follow that. I will follow scripture. My answer for 1Pet.3:15 will come from scripture.
One of the links I offered you was from John Brown of Haddington. He was a poor man, but studied hard and taught himself the Greek language. He was regarded as one of the most gifted theologians who ever lived. In other words, He forgot more about scripture than you will ever know.
Nevertheless, you rejected the link, and the other men who are also known worldwide. You can do that and stick with your logic and bumper sticker theology. I will read and post solid links from people who actually help other people.

Anyone who knows theology knows you have it wrong. Maybe others will ask you questions to gather your keen insights, but I will not be one of them. I come to help those who want to learn, not those who claim to know it all.
In your post#34 your position is covered in the portion you quote. You do not want to identify as an Arminian, ok, but you say the same thing in principle that they do here;



Here was the quote, it is the same thing;One class of commentators (the Arminians) maintain that Paul is saying that God predestined to salvation those whom He foreknew would respond to His offer of grace (i.e., those whom He saw would of their own free will repent of their sins and believe the gospel).
No one loves God without being indwelt by the Spirit of God.
10 Herein is love,
not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
When I offered the "Instruction Manual" to a man who couldn't assemble a toy, he said the same thing!
"You are welcome to follow that. I will follow scripture."
He's still trying to make it work.

But your actions prove are following John Brown of Haddington, not scripture:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Rom. 8:28-30 NKJ)

Before creation, before anyone was born or did good or bad, God foreknew everyone who would exist, sinless with perfectly free will. And those who responded to God's love, with love He predestined unto salvation.

Those who did not, He did not.

Its that simple. Calvin and Arminius are wrong, both believe God foreknew humans as they are now. Not so, scripture is very clear all this happened BEFORE creation, before the founding of the world:

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, (Eph. 1:4-5 NKJ)


Its too bad Calvin, Arminius and John Brown didn't understand this, then perhaps we wouldn't have the evil dogma of Reprobation and other horrors that make people "hate God without cause". Very similar to what Jews did:

For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written. (Rom. 2:24 NKJ)
 
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But your actions prove are following John Brown of Haddington, not scripture:
I have no problem using the study material of gifted teachers who God has given to churches in His Kingdom. You ridicule that very thing that would help you. A person with a proud spirit will not humble themselves and receive instruction. This is foolish.
Before creation, before anyone was born or did good or bad, God foreknew everyone who would exist, sinless with perfectly free will. And those who responded to God's love, with love He predestined unto salvation.
This is a complete made up fantasy. I do not entertain sci fi.
Those who did not, He did not.

Its that simple. Calvin and Arminius are wrong,
No one mentioned them. I doubt you have even read them. you are an example of many who protest and have no idea what you are posting about,


both believe God foreknew humans as they are now. Not so, scripture is very clear all this happened BEFORE creation, before the founding of the world:
this is incoherent.
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, (Eph. 1:4-5 NKJ)


Its too bad Calvin, Arminius and John Brown didn't understand this,
Compared to them you are a theological zero. That does stop you from posting such foolishness.

then perhaps we wouldn't have the evil dogma of Reprobation and other horrors that make people "hate God without cause". Very similar to what Jews did:

For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written. (Rom. 2:24 NKJ)
You're confused view of the world belongs to you alone.
 
I have no problem using the study material of gifted teachers who God has given to churches in His Kingdom. You ridicule that very thing that would help you. A person with a proud spirit will not humble themselves and receive instruction. This is foolish.

This is a complete made up fantasy. I do not entertain sci fi.


No one mentioned them. I doubt you have even read them. you are an example of many who protest and have no idea what you are posting about,



this is incoherent.


Compared to them you are a theological zero. That does stop you from posting such foolishness.


You're confused view of the world belongs to you alone.
You deleted the scriptures that proved every claim I made, and replied with your opinion.

Not exegesis on the cited scripture.

That is doing precisely the opposite of following scripture.
 
Post 22 isn't your post, and I don't read most long posts. Which is odd, because I love bloviating and usually post too much.

I respond to logical argument. You fail to provide that. Labeling my arguments "unbiblical" only works for your followers, those who believe whatever you say. I'm sure there are many of those:

Big Mouth Lol GIF by MOODMAN



Claiming "it don't say that...that's been answered..." is what you can say to your followers.

If you want to prove I am wrong to me or other thinking Christians, you must make a cogent argument.

Merry Christmas!

When I offered the "Instruction Manual" to a man who couldn't assemble a toy, he said the same thing!

He's still trying to make it work.

But your actions prove are following John Brown of Haddington, not scripture:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Rom. 8:28-30 NKJ)

Before creation, before anyone was born or did good or bad, God foreknew everyone who would exist, sinless with perfectly free will. And those who responded to God's love, with love He predestined unto salvation.

Those who did not, He did not.

Its that simple. Calvin and Arminius are wrong, both believe God foreknew humans as they are now. Not so, scripture is very clear all this happened BEFORE creation, before the founding of the world:

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, (Eph. 1:4-5 NKJ)


Its too bad Calvin, Arminius and John Brown didn't understand this, then perhaps we wouldn't have the evil dogma of Reprobation and other horrors that make people "hate God without cause". Very similar to what Jews did:

For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written. (Rom. 2:24 NKJ)


evil dogma of Reprobation and other horrors that make people "hate God without cause".

Please explain this.
 
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